How is the housing/renting crisis not a biggger issue?

The_Brood

Sure people are unhappy with the situation, there are friendly walks with banners down the city center a couple of times a year...but other than that this generation I guess seems resigned to forever being without a real home, renting until doom hits at retirement age.

This sums it well: https://www.joe.ie/politics/housing-crisis-ireland-millennials-632865

Single people are striken out alltogether, goodbye and goodluck. Couples where both partners are working have more of a chance, but the loan rules and stipulations are getting stricter and more unreasonable by the day, while rents are absurdly high.

So that's it, for many/most of us? That's the end? Nothing to be done, just wait our turn for the grave, hope the next generation have it better?

If these are the results of democracy or whatever governing system is in place, that system has well and truly failed.

Arghus

Until it really starts to hit and hurt the sections of society that vote for Fine Gael/Fianna Fáil, then it'll become a bigger deal.

jimbobaloobob

Theres no politician running with a solution to this crisis, its easier to to run on the notions of changing the climate. Answers to questions can be 'cloudier'.

ILoveYourVibes

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Arghus wrote: »

Until it really starts to hit and hurt the sections of society that vote for Fine Gael/Fianna Fáil, then it'll become a bigger deal.

I think it has hit the people who vote for them. But not the people who are members of FF or FG. It will hit them too though.

ILoveYourVibes

jimbobaloobob wrote: »

Theres no politician running with a solution to this crisis, its easier to to run on the notions of changing the climate. Answers to questions can be 'cloudier'.

I am not asking for a solution. It took years for FG to admit there was one. They were very very slow to react and take action.

The_Brood

The_Brood wrote: »

So that's it, for many/most of us? That's the end? Nothing to be done, just wait our turn for the grave, hope the next generation have it better?

So if you can't afford to buy a house, into the grave with you?

It's a major issue, but not that major. People still enjoy things despite the frustration of it all.

The reason it's not protested on is the same reason no one showed up to protest insurance premiums: The people it affects have a job to go to, and don't have the time, nor patience, to be standing out in the cold waving a funny Father Ted sign for attention.

Those who are employed are easy targets.

Obrieski

It's a big issue for me. Knowing that realistically, the idea of me, at some point in the not too distant future, having the opportunity of owning a home in a nice area with good local amenities, good local transport options without facing a massive commute are slim to none to extremely fanciful.

It's a big issue for me considering I have rented in some absolute dumps around Dublin city, where half my wages go on rent and it doesn't even have a car space, leaks, tiny bedrooms, broken facilities and landlords who don't care and refuse to help with problems, and I would be quite useful around the house with handyman jobs so never annoying him with leaking pipes or broken lightbulbs etc as can fix these myself.

And I'm lucky, I can afford to rent, a lot of people my age simply can't even afford that.

I've done my fair share of travelling and I've lived in some amazing places and the infrastructure around Dublin is laughable. No proper public transport system, no high rise apartment blocks around our city centre, seemingly no plan or structure to our city at all. I love Ireland, but some things just make me shake my head.

Rubberchikken

while we have people/planners who think high rise apartments must equal tenements we will continue to have some people in this situation.

not everyone wants to actually own a house. some are or woukd be, haopy to rent. many around the world manage successfully.

we need properly built apartment blocks, and logical rules that protect decent landlords and decent tenants.

It's beyond me how in a society where the vast majority of Irish people do not live in the areas in which they grew up - things called emigration and moving to larger, urban centres for employment - we are saying it's acceptable for somebody who doesn't work to be given a free home in Dublin by virtue of their being from Dublin, when 5/6/7 houses could be bought outside Dublin for the price of each social house in Dublin.

None of us have a right to live where we were born. Basic economic necessity decides that for most of us. There's no fairness for workers if the state comes in and subsidises non-workers to have a home in Dublin when actual workers in Dublin must travel in from Port Laoise, Mullingar, Navan and other places. There are loads of underpopulated places in Ireland where these people could be given houses for free. But giving free houses outside Dublin to somebody in Dublin is apparently a rightwing idea now!

myshirt

There are more people with houses than there are without houses. Homeless people, by large, don't vote. People in precarious rental situations also, by large, don't vote. Just getting through the day is an achievement. Disaffected people are as stressed. And it has a physiological effect on your body. They just want to get through the day.

People with the paw out who haven't done a tap of work in their life, and prawn sandwich socialists like Murphy and Barrett getting off on poverty porn help no one. The real affected people are those right on the margins of society, and those right in the middle. The other groupings are not as bad if you examine the data, despite what they think.

SpodoKamodo

The_Brood wrote: »

Sure people are unhappy with the situation, there are friendly walks with banners down the city center a couple of times a year...but other than that this generation I guess seems resigned to forever being without a real home, renting until doom hits at retirement age.

This sums it well: https://www.joe.ie/politics/housing-crisis-ireland-millennials-632865

Single people are striken out alltogether, goodbye and goodluck. Couples where both partners are working have more of a chance, but the loan rules and stipulations are getting stricter and more unreasonable by the day, while rents are absurdly high.

So that's it, for many/most of us? That's the end? Nothing to be done, just wait our turn for the grave, hope the next generation have it better?

If these are the results of democracy or whatever governing system is in place, that system has well and truly failed.

Democracy is government by those who are engaged with it. Don't vote, don't expect representation. Obviously those affected aren't as put out as you suggest.

Wheeliebin30

Free gaff.

troyzer

Two things.

1) It doesn't affect enough people badly enough for there to be general rage. A lot of people claim to care but are the first ones to object to any development near their house that they own. Many others are in negative equity and have no interest in lower house prices. This certainly isn't a lived experience for the majority of decision makers as well.

2) This is just a personal one but I do think it's next to impossible to get a house and I've sort of given up.
. I've never had more than an 11 month contract at a time and since graduating I've had three jobs, each paid worse than the last. I just lost the third job last week and now I'm back looking again from my home house.

I'll probably emigrate again to be honest.

I think we need to scrap democracy, and become like China lol. Democracy only fill short term goals, by politicians who say all sort of crap to be elected. But there's no consistent long term plan - 8 years ago the house prices were half what they are, and since then they doubled because they stopped building, well of course this situation was going to happen, whats the government plan to cater for workers here? and international workers who come form abroad or companies who want to expand here or set up offices?! Well I would advise any worker not to come here, the lack in quality of living (i.e. not finding a decent place to stay), would out way the benefits

Nikki Sixx

Politicians are landlords themselves, so they want rents to go up as well as house prices. Landlords are generally well off, the government backs business people and the well to do. The government needs the support of developers and landlords. The government will always protect the monied people. The minister for housing grew up in D4, so he is unaware of the plight of the peasants.

storker

It's not a crisis; it's a policy.

Nobelium

It's largely a Dublin housing/policy crisis not a national one. These are not the same things.

The media never bother their lazy ass making this differentiation.

There's housing lying empty in towns all throughout the rest of Ireland.

Encouraging everyone and everything in Ireland to move to Dublin, while deliberately running down the rest of the country . . is not good a good strategy for Dublin or Ireland.

The crisis is not a bigger issue because broadsheet Sunday papers will have glossy property suppliments with many sumptuous places to live. The same property suppliments won't acknowledge the crisis at all.
Think of the car suppliments in the same papers.

Money makes the world go round.

whisky_galore

Most people who are homeowners are either:
(a) happy with current situ as home values go up.
(b) of the opinion the whole thing is fake news.
(c) not caring as it's not their problem.

whisky_galore

Nobelium wrote: »

It's largely a Dublin housing/policy crisis not a national one. These are not the same things.

The media never bother their lazy ass making this differentiation.

There's housing lying empty in towns all throughout the rest of Ireland.

Encouraging everyone and everything in Ireland to move to Dublin, while deliberately running down the rest of the country . . is not good a good strategy for Dublin or Ireland.

Try finding an affordable place in Cork that's not a kip.

Life exists outside of Dublin, strangely enough.

Always Tired

Rubberchikken wrote: »

while we have people/planners who think high rise apartments must equal tenements we will continue to have some people in this situation.

not everyone wants to actually own a house. some are or woukd be, haopy to rent. many around the world manage successfully.

There is literally not ONE person who has spent any considerable time renting from Irish landlords who would ever choose to continue to do it if they had an alternative, any alternative.

We have housed too many total & utter fncking wasters and continue to do so.
The folk who make social welfare their chosen career path clog up the system making it grossly inefficient for those who need welfare assistance for the reasons it exists.

Not housing wasters etc probably won't help so it's a vicious circle.

Does anyone not know a few folk with a gaggle of sprogs who are on welfare, housed and living away quite comfortably while knowing many more working and making ends meet while not quite being where they want/need to be...

Wanderer78

The_Brood wrote:

If these are the results of democracy or whatever governing system is in place, that system has well and truly failed.

Complicated one, but since the asset owning classes are happy with the status quo, I can't see this one changing any time soon, if ever. Tis time for drastic changes, tis time for a land value tax. oh and we don't have democracy, we have a highly dysfunctional form of plutocracy, masquerading as democracy

_Brian

Going to be honest I see it as an issue of people who aren’t providing for themselves.

Look at the representative that have been slashed across the media, Margaret ****ing Cash, really.

Immschools across the country for decades teachers have been saying for decades, get an education, get a skill, build a career. But no, still ansection of society second and third generation unemployed sit on their asses and do nothing.

Now free houses are scarce they have a serious problem and expect me to give a shiit, I don’t.

I would prioritise any and all available houses to people who have held jobs already, longer you’ve been employed the higher up the list you go.

After that we need to abolish tax on rental income, there would be a surge of houses built to fill the rental market.

Yurt2

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Complicated one, but since the asset owning classes are happy with the status quo, I can't see this one changing any time soon, if ever. Tis time for drastic changes, tis time for a land value tax. oh and we don't have democracy, we have a highly dysfunctional form of plutocracy, masquerading as democracy

A well calibrated land value tax is probably the most important thing than can and should be done to tackle this issue. It's only going to get worse and in the not too distant future there's going to be a an economic apartheid between homeowners and non-homeowners.

Mad_maxx

whisky_galore wrote: »

Most people who are homeowners are either:
(a) happy with current situ as home values go up.
(b) of the opinion the whole thing is fake news.
(c) not caring as it's not their problem.

Much of the story is fake news

digzy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's beyond me how in a society where the vast majority of Irish people do not live in the areas in which they grew up - things called emigration and moving to larger, urban centres for employment - we are saying it's acceptable for somebody who doesn't work to be given a free home in Dublin by virtue of their being from Dublin, when 5/6/7 houses could be bought outside Dublin for the price of each social house in Dublin.

None of us have a right to live where we were born. Basic economic necessity decides that for most of us. There's no fairness for workers if the state comes in and subsidises non-workers to have a home in Dublin when actual workers in Dublin must travel in from Port Laoise, Mullingar, Navan and other places. There are loads of underpopulated places in Ireland where these people could be given houses for free. But giving free houses outside Dublin to somebody in Dublin is apparently a rightwing idea now!

Excellent post. It’s repugnant that workers are forced to compete with the state who’re subsidizing spongers to live in areas of high demand, Dublin being the obvious example

whisky_galore

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Much of the story is fake news

Again, try finding affordable rental property in or near a city that's fit for human habitation. And by "affordable" I mean average industrial wage affordable, not Google employee affordable

Yurt2

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Much of the story is fake news

Didn't take long for the spiv buy-to-let landlord brigade to arrive.

Tell us, who's responsible for your woes? Is it Margaret Cash or the immigrants?

Mrsmum

whisky_galore wrote: »

Most people who are homeowners are either:
(a) happy with current situ as home values go up.
(b) of the opinion the whole thing is fake news.
(c) not caring as it's not their problem.

I don't think that's right. Most homeowners have children, I myself have teenagers and I worry very much about how they will ever have homes and that they will spend their lives throwing money down the drain in kips without any security because those are the stories I'm listening to with horror. Most of my circle of friends would be of the same view so imo it's everyone's problem really.

Trigger Happy

_Brian wrote: »

Look at the representative that have been slashed across the media, Margaret ****ing Cash, really.

See, for me this is it. I would be afraid that by voting hard left we end up with a free houses for all regime, diminished personal responsibility and then a collapse of the real working class (ie, those who work) due to increased tax.

And as a poster above said, for most people it does not affect them directly and most people always vote in their own interests.

But yeah, the 'wont work- gimmie a house' brigade who run to the press when they dont get what they want and their supporters have really taken from those who genuinely have a need.

Sonny noggs

There is no ‘crisis’. A very small % of people are homeless. Rents are high in Dublin and other areas but demand from immigration is the real cause. No matter how many houses / apartments we build, immigration will exceed that and keep prices high.

I work in an office where 9 out of 25 are Irish. That is not sustainable.

Wanderer78

Mrsmum wrote: »

I don't think that's right. Most homeowners have children, I myself have teenagers and I worry very much about how they will ever have homes and that they will spend their lives throwing money down the drain in kips without any security because those are the stories I'm listening to with horror. Most of my circle of friends would be of the same view so imo it's everyone's problem really.

the disturbing truth is, those that think theyre not being affected, will eventually be, as you said, most of these people are parents and grandparents to, they ll eventually care when everyone is stuck under the one roof, in their home!

Wheeliebin30

Because 99.94% of the population have somewhere to live.

Opposition groups have tried to make out this is a big deal when in reality it’s not.

Few spongers giving out they haven’t had their way.

It’s a simple as that..

Edgware

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Much of the story is fake news

Bu bu bu wharra abow poor Margareth Cash, its a disgrace Joe
p.s. Any chance of a gaff near me Ma

Yurt2

Edgware wrote: »

Bu bu bu wharra abow poor Margareth Cash, its a disgrace Joe
p.s. Any chance of a gaff near me Ma

Yep, the buy-to-let spiv class all over this thread. Like flies to sh*t, peddling the same claptrap from forum to forum. Do they never get bored repeating the same schtick?

Not all BTL landlords are spivs, but all spivs are BTL landlords.

Amirani

Always Tired wrote: »

There is literally not ONE person who has spent any considerable time renting from Irish landlords who would ever choose to continue to do it if they had an alternative, any alternative.

Yes there is. Don't know why you feel you can speak for me or for everyone else who has ever rented in Ireland.

riddles

Paddy is the ultimate beast of burden. He or she will pay high tax - then a raft of double taxation. The payback is a substandard everything. There isn't an idea A) how many people the state can afford to feed, cloth and house from the cradle to the grave. how many people are going to arrive into the country in any one year. So if you don't have that how can there be anything like proper planning. Politicians know once Paddy has cable TV, a few bob for the shopping centre sunday and enough to pay through the nose pack out sports or music venues they won't rock the boat.

The politicians view is short term and all they need to do is to be able to borrow that 10 million euros a day to keep the party going. They are not in the business of addressing the big picture challenges, like the fact we are going from a tax payer ratio from 5-1 to 2-1 in a couple of decades. And the reason they are not is that Paddy doesn't want to hear about sh1t like that. Paddy just wants to say "I'm alright Jack!"

This attitude is what caused the financial crash. Bertie and his crew gave people what they wanted even though it wasn't real or sustainable. When they realised they had a load of debt and were expected to repay it they said hang on this is no fun anymore. Then NAMA was setup whose main goal was to ensure prices were restored to ball park the area that caused the crisis in the first place. That could only happen if supply was less than demand. And here we are.

We have elections Friday and turnout will probably be early 50's at best. Paddy doesn't want change - we just want to say "I'm alright jack!".

Valhallapt

About 2 in 3 people live in family owned property. The crisis has no impact on them.

As for the remaining one third, a sizeable chunk are welfare for life with no intention of supporting themselves or their families. So there is no sympathy there. Another big chunk is young non nationals, probably planning on staying x years and returning home, they are not going to take to the streets.

So that leaves the balance who are impacted, the people who simply can’t afford to live in the place they want. It’s tough on them but their numbers are not big enough to force change.

handlemaster

There seems to be two major issues cropping up. 1 people who want the free home and will only accept it in the area that they grew up and 2 people who want to buy but only in a particular area. Noneof these issues is a real crises.

Wanderer78

riddles wrote: »

Paddy is the ultimate beast of burden. He or she will pay high tax - then a raft of double taxation. The payback is a substandard everything. There isn't an idea A) how many people the state can afford to feed, cloth and house from the cradle to the grave. how many people are going to arrive into the country in any one year. So if you don't have that how can there be anything like proper planning. Politicians know once Paddy has cable TV, a few bob for the shopping centre sunday and enough to pay through the nose pack out sports or music venues they won't rock the boat.

The politicians view is short term and all they need to do is to be able to borrow that 10 million euros a day to keep the party going. They are not in the business of addressing the big picture challenges, like the fact we are going from a tax payer ratio from 5-1 to 2-1 in a couple of decades. And the reason they are not is that Paddy doesn't want to hear about sh1t like that. Paddy just wants to say "I'm alright Jack!"

This attitude is what caused the financial crash. Bertie and his crew gave people what they wanted even though it wasn't real or sustainable. When realised they had a load of debt and were expected to repay it they said hang on this is no fun anymore. Then NAMA was setup whose main goal was to ensure prices were restored to ball park the area that caused the crisis in the first place. That could only happen if supply was less than demand. And here we are.

We have elections Friday and turnout will probably be early 50's at best. Paddy doesn't want change - we just want to say "I'm alright jack!".

the deregulation of the financial sector, which flooded the planet with cheap credit, which in turn caused a rapid rise in asset prices, in particular housing, which in turn caused a rapid rise in our debts, and no, not public debts, but private, actually caused the 'credit crisis'

mickoneill31

For me, a problem I have is with the definition of homeless.

If you're able to turn down an offer of a house from the council then I'm not sure how you can be classified homeless.

I also don't understand familes having nowhere to go but then only being able to consider offers of houses close to their families. I know if a member of my family was homeless they'd have a place to stay with me (or most of their other family) and the opposite is true. A lot of us got married and lived with parents while we saved without realising we were homeless.

So while the numbers are inflated by these homeless some people might not think it's all that serious.

Sonny noggs

Yurt! wrote: »

Yep, the buy-to-let spiv class all over this thread. Like flies to sh*t, peddling the same claptrap from forum to forum. Do they never get bored repeating the same schtick?

Not all BTL landlords are spivs, but all spivs are BTL landlords.

Every single spiv is a BTL landlord? Is that anecdotal, or do you have something to back that up?

I know at least 2 spivs who are not BTL landlords. Where does that leave your hypothesis?

riddles

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the deregulation of the financial sector, which flooded the planet with cheap credit, which in turn caused a rapid rise in asset prices, in particular housing, which in turn caused a rapid rise in our debts, and no, not public debts, but private, actually caused the 'credit crisis'

People's willingness to dive headlong into an unprecedented ponsi scheme enabled by Clinton declaring "the Glass–Steagall law is no longer appropriate" in November 1999, this is what caused the crisis. Some people lost but didn't lose and others who didn't even have skin in the game ended up footing the bill. In the end its about deciding what personal responsibility actually is. Now that we have moved away from that its a free for all - why? because Paddy doesn't care.

mickoneill31

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

Politicians are landlords themselves, so they want rents to go up as well as house prices. Landlords are generally well off, the government backs business people and the well to do.

Rubbish. The current laws totally favour tenants. A mate of mine was telling me how he's getting to the end of a 2 year battle to get a non payer out of his rental house. Once she's out the house will repaired and then be sold and it'll be one less house to rent. If politicians were all landlords they'd be fixing this. I think a lot aren't landlords so think the tenant should have all of the rights. So anybody considering being a small landlord would need their head examined and many are getting out of it.

The biggest quickest fix they could do now is to say if you don't pay your rent for 3 months you will be evicted on the third month. Nobody who pays rent would argue against that too much and most of the risk for landlords is gone overnight and more investment goes into the sector. I'm not going to spend €300K - €400K and then have somebody live in it for free for a couple of years and wreck it in the process.

Wildly Boaring

Yes a lot of people are already in their own house. Mortgage interest is low. Not as low as it should be but as low as it'll get.

Lots renting are actually happy out. My brother in law and sister in law both have very good jobs and both are happy with their rental situation. They pay 1200 or 1300 for apartments one in cork and other in meath. Sister in law insists she will never buy.

We own our house. Bought in downturn. My brother owns his. Well the banks own both but neither mortgage is over 700 a month.

My other 2 brothers PHD level fellas live in UK and that's due to job quality in their fields.

So of 7 people 30 something and 2 sets of parents. All are ok and unaffected.

I work in an office 2 days a week. Mostly professionals. All manner of discussion at lunch. Never comes up. Couple of people moaning about places they viewed to rent. But they all get sorted.

Is the crisis that bad? In my experience it's not. But my experience is limited.

Housing charities don't help. Going on national media and sticking up for Margaret cash and her ilk.


One proposed solution I'd have for the working renters. Allow their rent for a defined period count as evidence they could have a deposit. Give these particular people 95% mortgage.

Another note. Put our house for sale. Highest offer, the local council. By some margin. Driving price up. Another has now matched

griffin100

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

Politicians are landlords themselves, so they want rents to go up as well as house prices. Landlords are generally well off, the government backs business people and the well to do. The government needs the support of developers and landlords. The government will always protect the monied people. The minister for housing grew up in D4, so he is unaware of the plight of the peasants.

Sinn Feiins spokesman on housing went to Blackrock College and grew up in South Dublin, yet some people seem to think he knows what’s he’s talking about. He’s a posh boy who became a socialist as it represented his easiest route into the Dail.

We will never fix the ‘housing crisis’. The more houses that are made available for people on the homeless / housing lists the more people will choose to go on the list rather than to buy.

High prices in major cities is replicated all over the world. Social and low cost housing in cities should be given to key workers who can’t afford city prices and not career claimants. Those in possession of council houses should not be able to pass them on to their kids as if they were personal assets. Those in council houses should have a home that suits their needs rather than staying in a 3 bed even when the kids have moved out. But that will never happen as it’s seen as too right wing.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

We have housed too many total & utter fncking wasters and continue to do so.
The folk who make social welfare their chosen career path clog up the system making it grossly inefficient for those who need welfare assistance for the reasons it exists.

Not housing wasters etc probably won't help so it's a vicious circle.

Does anyone not know a few folk with a gaggle of sprogs who are on welfare, housed and living away quite comfortably while knowing many more working and making ends meet while not quite being where they want/need to be...

These are the people feeding the “crisis”. They’ve twigged that by declaring themselves homeless and putting up with short term pain, the end benefit will be a foreva home.

Yurt2

Deleted User wrote: »

These are the people feeding the “crisis”. They’ve twigged that by declaring themselves homeless and putting up with short term pain, the end benefit will be a foreva home.

I'd love to know what percentage of the population are at this. Because if you were to believe some of the "no-crisis, and if there is one, it's because of Margret Cash" brigade, it's apparently every second person and that's why we have chronic housing affordability.

Figures, give me figures.

Sonny noggs

Yurt! wrote: »

I'd love to know what percentage of the population are at this. Because if you were to believe some of the "no-crisis, and if there is one, it's because of Margret Cash" brigade, it's apparently every second person and that's why we have chronic housing affordability.

Figures, give me figures.

Do you have figures to show there is a ‘crisis’?

Yurt2

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Do you have figures to show there is a ‘crisis’?

Obsessed with vegans, communists, Arabs, immigrants etc. No, I'm not ars*d getting into your playpen Pinochet Jr.

Here's a useful titbit for you, the cold war was over when you were still in your father's ballsack.