The Falcon And The Winter Soldier - Miniseries - Disney + (***Spoilers***)

Sleepy

Unless this series has Sam getting the super soldier serum somehow, I just don't see how his Captain America could last more than a few minutes in a fight? Even with the abilities, Steve Rogers was frequently very reliant on his ability to heal quickly.

FileNotFound

Sleepy wrote: »

Unless this series has Sam getting the super soldier serum somehow, I just don't see how his Captain America could last more than a few minutes in a fight? Even with the abilities, Steve Rogers was frequently very reliant on his ability to heal quickly.

Sure they will just have him as a semi invincible human without any explanation.

He already kind of was in the first episode.

Sure see how it unfolds - I just find Sam whiney and annoying, have done since the films. Maybe i am letting that cloud my judgement.

The Inbetween is mine

As it stands, there is absolutely no way that Sam will be Captain America...he's sidekick material, nothing more..his human interaction story will be heartfelt & interesting and that will keep it interesting.
But Bucky is where redemption and the true story lie imo

The Inbetween is mine

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

As it stands, there is absolutely no way that Sam will be Captain America...

*Cough* Black Panther effect.

I think it will be Sam

The Inbetween is mine

[Deleted User] wrote: »

*Cough* Black Panther effect.

I think it will be Sam

I'd say you've pulled a few muscles with that reach

homerun_homer

Got around to watching this last night and I was underwhelmed.

Wandavision first episode: "That was fun, mysterious, and very different to anything Marvel have done before. I wonder where this will go?"

FATWS first ep: "I do not give a flying f**k if he gets a mortgage for his family boat."

I had to laugh at what I felt was the most far fetched bit, when in the opening set piece Falcon says "Red wing, get him off our @ss" and the gadget does what he needs it to do. If I ask my Alexa to stop a timed alarm that is going off I have to yell at it many a time like it's a bold child.:pac:

Lithium93_

Wasn't the whole point of Old Man Cap coming back to the present time line with the shield, and passing it to Sam already signalling that yeah - Sam's going to be the next Captain America..

FunLover18

Yeh I really don't get how people think Sam somehow won't end up being Cap. It would just look incredibly bad if they turned around and gave it to another white guy (Bucky) after teeing up a black Cap.

Also in terms of Sam's lack of powers, it does niggle at the back of my mind but let's not forget that Hawkeye and Black Widow didn't have super powers either.

FunLover18

homerun_homer wrote: »

Got around to watching this last night and I was underwhelmed.

Wandavision first episode: "That was fun, mysterious, and very different to anything Marvel have done before. I wonder where this will go?"

FATWS first ep: "I do not give a flying f**k if he gets a mortgage for his family boat."

I had to laugh at what I felt was the most far fetched bit, when in the opening set piece Falcon says "Red wing, get him off our @ss" and the gadget does what he needs it to do. If I ask my Alexa to stop a timed alarm that is going off I have to yell at it many a time like it's a bold child.:pac:

I think with the TV shows we're going see a lot more variety in terms of genre and execution. F&WS is a lot more straightforward than Wandavision, it's an action thriller with more fleshing out of the characters and the world. I personally found the mortgage scene interesting as it gave us a glimpse into the everyday mundanity of existence and how our heros cope with it which we don't usually see.

shawki

Just a heads up regarding release time.

The US clocks changed for summertime on the 14th of March, that's why we got the first episode at 7:00am.

So Episode 2 will release at 7:00am but all other episodes will release at 8:00am.

Mitch Connor

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

As it stands, there is absolutely no way that Sam will be Captain America...he's sidekick material, nothing more..his human interaction story will be heartfelt & interesting and that will keep it interesting.
But Bucky is where redemption and the true story lie imo

I don't think Captain America is going to have his own films going foward (Be it Sam or Bucky). I reckon Captain America will be similar to Hawkeye (or indeed Falcon and Winter Soldier), a supporting member in someones movie, or in an ensemble - and I think there needs to be a 'normal' human in mix of these movies to provide the counter point to the super heros, and Sam can fulfil that role.

In terms of Buckys redemption.... is it the true story? Was that not covered in Civil War and then Infinity War/Endgame? His full redemption in atoning for his past deeds will obviously be covered in this show, but from a movie perspective do peoeple need more than they got in the movies? He was a bad guy in Winter Soldier, he was framed and defended by Team Cap in Civil War and fought alongside the Avengers in Endgame and Infinity War. I think the Bucky stuff in this show will be interesting but I didn't assume it would be part of the show, nor did I think it was needed going in.

Also, I don't think Bucky as Cap is as interesting a story point as Sam as Cap is. I prefer Sebastion Stan as an actor, I wouldn't be a fan of Anthony Mackie and I have always found Falcon a bit of a dumb hero (his opening action scene in this being the best of him in action, imo) so this isn't me saying Sam as Cap because I particularly want that. I think it should be Sam because that is what they set in Endgame, and the narrative of Sam seeing the Symbol of Cap America being misused or tarnished, and following through to believe in himself as worthy of the shield - because the morality of the man behind the shield is more important than their physical strength - is more interesting than 'Bucky was his best mate and is really strong'. Also, in terms of bad guy assassin turned good guy and trying to atone for their past... we have already had Black Widow. Do we need the male version of it too?

Mitch Connor

Sleepy wrote: »

Unless this series has Sam getting the super soldier serum somehow, I just don't see how his Captain America could last more than a few minutes in a fight? Even with the abilities, Steve Rogers was frequently very reliant on his ability to heal quickly.

Same way Hawkeye and Black Widow fought alongside the Avengers. In the same way Falcon himself fought alongside the Avengers. And there are comic book runs with non-super-soldier Sam as Captain America (with the Falcon suit).

Indeed they can't just give him the shield in exchange for the falcon suit - but they can (and have in the comics) given him the shield and the symbol of Captain America along side his suit.

The Inbetween is mine

Not a chance of Captain America becoming a bit part player.. Hawkeye and Black Widow were always completely human.
The very essence of Captain America is his heart and will to play by the rules and not hurt people.
Sam's first act is to ride roughshod over his sister & slap aside her own wishes about the boat for his own pride.
Can't see any way of him being Cap going forward

Foxtrol

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Not a chance of Captain America becoming a bit part player.. Hawkeye and Black Widow were always completely human.
The very essence of Captain America is his heart and will to play by the rules and not hurt people.
Sam's first act is to ride roughshod over his sister & slap aside her own wishes about the boat for his own pride.
Can't see any way of him being Cap going forward

Captain America repeatedly didn't play by the rules, he played by his morality. He had no problem 'cheating' to get into the army, nor breaking the Sokovia Accords. Believing he was 'right' arguably caused the snap to occur - breaking up the Avengers.

Steve Rogers' story has been told, just like Tony Stark's has. Marvel would be stupid to try to force feed the audience a new Captain America or Iron Man by putting them center stage when there are so many other characters that haven't had air time - even before getting into Mutants, Fantastic 4, Blade etc. The new versions can be part of the MCU but they aren't going to be the center of it.

Mitch Connor

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Not a chance of Captain America becoming a bit part player.. Hawkeye and Black Widow were always completely human.
The very essence of Captain America is his heart and will to play by the rules and not hurt people.

Steve Rogers was Captain America though. no version of Captain America going forward is the real deal, really. I just don't see how we have a non-Rogers standalone Captain America movie. If we were going to, I don't think we would have Falcon and the Winter Soldier. I don't think we are going to get a standalone Scarlet Witch or Loki movie either, basing it on the same logic.

I dont see either Sebastian Stan or Anthony Mackie headlining a standalone Cap America movie. Cap America as a headliner ended with Rogers. Unless Evans comes back as Old Cap, we won't get a standalone movie, imo.

as for saying heart is the essence of Captain America. Yep. It is. And Sam has that. Sam is a "good man" as Cap said to him, and the Doc said to Cap. Your interpretation of his interaction with his sister is just that, your interpretation. There are clearly wounds there to be healed (beyond any financial issues with the boat) but you shouldn't also discount Sam putting himself on the line for Cap and BW in Winter Soldier, against Hydra and a Super Soldier, because it was the right thing to do. Putting himself against Iron Man, War Machine, Black Panther, Vision in Civil War because it was (in his opinion) the right thing to do.

Sleepy

FunLover18 wrote: »

Yeh I really don't get how people think Sam somehow won't end up being Cap. It would just look incredibly bad if they turned around and gave it to another white guy (Bucky) after teeing up a black Cap.

Also in terms of Sam's lack of powers, it does niggle at the back of my mind but let's not forget that Hawkeye and Black Widow didn't have super powers either.

I agree that this series arc will be about Sam "earning" the mantle.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Same way Hawkeye and Black Widow fought alongside the Avengers. In the same way Falcon himself fought alongside the Avengers. And there are comic book runs with non-super-soldier Sam as Captain America (with the Falcon suit).

Indeed they can't just give him the shield in exchange for the falcon suit - but they can (and have in the comics) given him the shield and the symbol of Captain America along side his suit.

I've read a graphic novel with Sam as Capt America, and tbh, it was shit. Steve Rogers is Captain America, Sam embodies many of the same qualities that helped Steve be good at it but he's just a less interesting character.

Hawkeye and Black Widow both being human makes them weak links in the team and require a bit of a suspension of disbelief though to be fair, the movies have even poked fun at how silly it is themselves: " the city is flying, we're fighting an army of robots, and I have a bow and arrow. None of this makes sense"

Both lead characters in this series have donned the mantle of Captain America at various points in the comics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucky_Barnes#The_new_Captain_America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_(comics)#Becoming_Captain_America

pah

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I never said it was random. I said it was lazy and cliched, which it is. Maybe you were half reading my comment?

Sure you did. You said

"Pretty lazy and cliched that the kindly old geezer he befriends just happens to be the father of a chap he murdered."

Mitch Connor

Sleepy wrote: »

I agree that this series arc will be about Sam "earning" the mantle.


I've read a graphic novel with Sam as Capt America, and tbh, it was shit. Steve Rogers is Captain America, Sam embodies many of the same qualities that helped Steve be good at it but he's just a less interesting character.

Hawkeye and Black Widow both being human makes them weak links in the team and require a bit of a suspension of disbelief though to be fair, the movies have even poked fun at how silly it is themselves: " the city is flying, we're fighting an army of robots, and I have a bow and arrow. None of this makes sense"

Both lead characters in this series have donned the mantle of Captain America at various points in the comics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucky_Barnes#The_new_Captain_America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_(comics)#Becoming_Captain_America

as you say, Steve Rogers IS Captain America, which is why I don't think we will get a standalone Sam/Bucky Captain America movie.

Have you read the comics with Bucky as Cap America? I know both have been Cap, but i've read neither. Would be interested to know if Bucky is a more interesting Cap.

I wanted Bucky to take the role, as I prefer him to Falcon. I just think with giving Sam the shield in Endgame and how he gives it up (and sees it given away) in the first episode of this, the natural story arc is him earning the shield, in his own eyes. Even as he spoke about Steve BEING captain america, a symbol. That leads into a Sam story arc, not a Bucky one. IMO.

flazio

It's common enough in other media for Marvel super hero aliases to be shared or passed on. Miles Morales is as much Spider-man as Peter Parker, the whole Black Panther mantra is passed from father to son, Hank Pym and his wife were Ant Man and The Wasp before Scott Lang and Hope, there's more than one Hulk more than one Iron___ etc.

The Inbetween is mine

flazio wrote: »

It's common enough in other media for Marvel super hero aliases to be shared or passed on. Miles Morales is as much Spider-man as Peter Parker, the whole Black Panther mantra is passed from father to son, Hank Pym and his wife were Ant Man and The Wasp before Scott Lang and Hope, there's more than one Hulk more than one Iron___ etc.

Nobody is arguing those points...of course the mantle will be passed on....to whom is the issue.
My problem with this is, when supers passed their powers on...it was always to a super...or the gift embued powers to the individual.
I can't remember a super passing the mantle to someone else...and no power being part of the deal.

This could go the way of wandavision in here... people reading online fanzines and then passing it on here, quite a few silly guesses last time around left people looks looking to Easter for some new eggs.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems a stretch that a minor character (and a limited actor let's be truthful) would be handed the mantle of Captain America.
If I'm proved wrong, I'll come back and hold my hands up, no issues at all.

Foxtrol

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Nobody is arguing those points...of course the mantle will be passed on....to whom is the issue.
My problem with this is, when supers passed their powers on...it was always to a super...or the gift embued powers to the individual.
I can't remember a super passing the mantle to someone else...and no power being part of the deal.

This could go the way of wandavision in here... people reading online fanzines and then passing it on here, quite a few silly guesses last time around left people looks looking to Easter for some new eggs.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems a stretch that a minor character (and a limited actor let's be truthful) would be handed the mantle of Captain America.
If I'm proved wrong, I'll come back and hold my hands up, no issues at all.

I think your argument is based on the presumption that Captain America will continue to be a central character - I see no evidence that this is the direction the MCU is going. It seems like they are going heavily towards mystical and space for Phase 4 and likely Mutants for Phase 5, all of which would make peak Steve Rogers seem underpowered.

The Inbetween is mine

Foxtrol wrote: »

I think your argument is based on the presumption that Captain America will continue to be a central character - I see no evidence that this is the direction the MCU is going. It seems like they are going heavily towards mystical and space for Phase 4 and likely Mutants for Phase 5, all of which would make peak Steve Rogers seem underpowered.

Black Widow movie is released July 5th
Shang Chi
Hawkeye
These are all current in the MCU and non.powered, so I don't think you're correct.

We've not been given any indication as to whether Cap will be to the fore, or a background character...so we'll leave that to fanzine land as it's a totally circular argument

Insect Overlord

I've never read the comics or the graphic novels so I can't add anything extra to the debate, but I just wanted to say it's fascinating seeing the different ideas people have been suggesting here. Some class discussion here over the last page or so. It's great to have this kind of enthusiastic analysis in between shows.

Sleepy

Mitch Connor wrote: »

as you say, Steve Rogers IS Captain America, which is why I don't think we will get a standalone Sam/Bucky Captain America movie.

Have you read the comics with Bucky as Cap America? I know both have been Cap, but i've read neither. Would be interested to know if Bucky is a more interesting Cap.

I wanted Bucky to take the role, as I prefer him to Falcon. I just think with giving Sam the shield in Endgame and how he gives it up (and sees it given away) in the first episode of this, the natural story arc is him earning the shield, in his own eyes. Even as he spoke about Steve BEING captain america, a symbol. That leads into a Sam story arc, not a Bucky one. IMO.

No, I've not read any of the comics where Bucky takes the role and I'm not particularly interested to either tbh.

I think you're right - any passing of the mantle of "Captain America" to either character isn't going to change their status in the MCU movies: they'll both remain B listers who feature in other heroes films (and the Avengers team-ups) but won't be getting standalones.

Honestly, I think we're heading towards a slow down in the popularity of the MCU. With Cap, Iron Man and Black Widow killed off/aged out and the Hulk transformed into the frankly boring Professor Hulk we're only left with Spiderman and Thor of the big name heroes. I know Ironman wasn't exactly the most widely known character when the MCU started but I just can't see the rest (Ant Man, Falcon, Winter Soldier, Captain Marvel, Dr Strange, Hawkeye, Wanda etc.) holding the broader public interest in the same way. The Guardians work best in their own series IMO and when you add all of this to the fact we've now had over a decade of these films dominating the box office it just feels like it's probably time for the next big thing... maybe that'll be the Mutants but that ground has been fairly thoroughly farmed by Fox with a dozen or so movies already.... it would certainly be interesting to see a new big IP imo.

Sleepy

Sleepy wrote: »

No, I've not read any of the comics where Bucky takes the role and I'm not particularly interested to either tbh.

I think you're right - any passing of the mantle of "Captain America" to either character isn't going to change their status in the MCU movies: they'll both remain B listers who feature in other heroes films (and the Avengers team-ups) but won't be getting standalones.

Honestly, I think we're heading towards a slow down in the popularity of the MCU. With Cap, Iron Man and Black Widow killed off/aged out and the Hulk transformed into the frankly boring Professor Hulk we're only left with Spiderman and Thor of the big name heroes. I know Ironman wasn't exactly the most widely known character when the MCU started but I just can't see the rest (Ant Man, Falcon, Winter Soldier, Captain Marvel, Dr Strange, Hawkeye, Wanda etc.) holding the broader public interest in the same way. The Guardians work best in their own series IMO and when you add all of this to the fact we've now had over a decade of these films dominating the box office it just feels like it's probably time for the next big thing... maybe that'll be the Mutants but that ground has been fairly thoroughly farmed by Fox with a dozen or so movies already.... it would certainly be interesting to see a new big IP imo.

I see your point, but one word answer.

REBOOT!

Foxtrol

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Black Widow movie is released July 5th
Shang Chi
Hawkeye
These are all current in the MCU and non.powered, so I don't think you're correct.

We've not been given any indication as to whether Cap will be to the fore, or a background character...so we'll leave that to fanzine land as it's a totally circular argument

I'm not sure the point you're trying to make with your examples - none are what I'd deem as being 'to the fore':

Black Widow - First movie after being a background character in the MCU for a decade. Will likely act as her swan song
Shang Chi - Probably the least anticipated movie in MCU history, no evidence he'll be more than a background character
Hawkeye - A TV show for a background character, which is the same level as Falcon and Winter Soldier

Half the point of these threads is to speculate so if you don't want to then you're in the wrong place.

Lithium93_

The Hawkeye show is also going to be a passing of the mantle moment.

The Inbetween is mine

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'm not sure the point you're trying to make with your examples - none are what I'd deem as being 'to the fore':

Black Widow - First movie after being a background character in the MCU for a decade. Will likely act as her swan song
Shang Chi - Probably the least anticipated movie in MCU history, no evidence he'll be more than a background character
Hawkeye - A TV show for a background character, which is the same level as Falcon and Winter Soldier

Half the point of these threads is to speculate so if you don't want to then you're in the wrong place.

I gave you 3 examples of non powered individuals who are to the fore in the MCU this coming year....and you say they don't count?.....okay then

They are all pointers to the fact that the MCU isn't going completely over to magic & mystical heroes, not for some time anyway...
I do like Shang Chi I must admit, and that genre has made a comeback recently, with the TV series warrior and the latest batman animated movie going down that road... Shang Chi could be the perfect chance for the new female Hawkeye to come onboard, seems the perfect vehicle to do so.
Im waiting to see what happens with the Fantastic 4....I think previous incarnations have been poorly cast, badly written and barring the appearance of the silver surfer... totally forgettable...
John Watts has a big task ahead I think over the next year or 2 to make a movie that people will flock to...the choice of actor for Reed Richards will be off-putting for quite a lot of people of it is John Krasinski...just my thoughts on it

The Golden Miller

flazio wrote: »

It's common enough in other media for Marvel super hero aliases to be shared or passed on. Miles Morales is as much Spider-man as Peter Parker, the whole Black Panther mantra is passed from father to son, Hank Pym and his wife were Ant Man and The Wasp before Scott Lang and Hope, there's more than one Hulk more than one Iron___ etc.

Miles Morales is in no way as much Spider-man as Peter Parker, nor ever will be no matter how much Marvel try and shoe-horn that in to be the case

The Golden Miller

A bit of discussion here about the mantle of Captain America. I'd assume Bucky will take the mantle at some point. He's the natural fit, best mate and also a super soldier, from a previous era. The Sam stuff is nonsense really, he's just a human no where near the lever required to be Captain America. Infact, should of been pulverized a long time ago.