Gender Pay Gap (Gender Pay Gap Information Bill 2019)

waynerooney

I am trying to understand what additional powers the state will have if the 'gender pay gap' bill is passed. Having read the text of the bill, it seems to me that the state will only be able to force companies to provide their pay gap information, as opposed to forcing companies to remove the gap.

Can anybody clarify?

GM228

waynerooney wrote: »

I am trying to understand what additional powers the state will have if the 'gender pay gap' bill is passed. Having read the text of the bill, it seems to me that the state will only be able to force companies to provide their pay gap information, as opposed to forcing companies to remove the gap.

Can anybody clarify?

It's basically only a Bill in relation to matters concerning the publication of certain information.

The state will have no additional powers under the Bill other than the ability for the Minister for Justice and Equality to make regulations regarding the publication of remuneration details, gender pay gaps, the reasons for such and what measures are to be taken to address such gaps etc.

Glass fused light

Some one could point out to the authors that gender is not particularly relevant when it comes to collecting data on pay gaps as the company has to record men or woman according to their preferred gender, of which there are a limitless number, so it's a garbage in garbage out bill.

waynerooney

Glass fused light wrote: »

Some one could point out to the authors that gender is not particularly relevant when it comes to collecting data on pay gaps as the company has to record men or woman according to their preferred gender, of which there are a limitless number, so it's a garbage in garbage out bill.

good point. hadnt thought of that. possibly oireachtas had meant to legislate for sex pay gap.

waynerooney

thanks @gm228. is that an opinion or fact? or somewhere in between

nuac

Glass fused light wrote: »

Some one could point out to the authors that gender is not particularly relevant when it comes to collecting data on pay gaps as the company has to record men or woman according to their preferred gender, of which there are a limitless number, so it's a garbage in garbage out bill.

Are there really limitless genders in real life?
How can legislation be drafted to cover that.?
As I type this am watching hurling - Tipp and Waterford - 30 great lads- no doubts as to genders there

Glass fused light

nuac wrote: »

Are there really limitless genders in real life?
How can legislation be drafted to cover that.?
As I type this am watching hurling - Tipp and Waterford - 30 great lads- no doubts as to genders there

If you believe that "Gender" is a social construct based on personal experience of what it is to be a man or a woman then it's only limited by the number of humans on the planet eg. New York currently recognises 30+ genders, Facebook 70+.

As gender covered in legistation the only way to draft legistation to narrowly define what the classification covers and what it excludes. Some gender activists want to eliminate the whole idea of sex based classification. And the idea that the people involved in drafting legistation dont understand that there is a significant difference between sex and gender is worrying. If they do and are pushing the bill for other political reasons, well the question is what is that reason.

As for the lads well let's just stick a cis gender :pac: in there and hope for the best.

Peregrinus

This is only an issue if signficant numbers of employees do in fact claim gender identities other than the two we are familiar with.

If you think employers are going to successfully persuade large parts of their workforces to claim non-standard gender identities in order to assist the employers in obscuring the male/female pay gap in their businesses, I have a Trumpist Brexit-supporting climate-denial conspiracy theory to sell you.

Glass fused light

No the issue is that there is a difference in legistation between sex and gender.

If the people proposing law are unable to understand the difference we have a problem as both offer different "protection" and an employer would have to record the persons sex and their gender in order to collect the data to comply. Edit or will only record gender rather than sex.

As an employee it's advantageous to have a gender identity other than using the basic biology of sex.

tempmailtest mail

It's not a sex pay gap, its a sex earnings gap...

Peregrinus

Glass fused light wrote: »

No the issue is that there is a difference in legistation between sex and gender.

If the people proposing law are unable to understand the difference we have a problem as both offer different "protection" and an employer would have to record the persons sex and their gender in order to collect the data to comply. Edit or will only record gender rather than sex.

As an employee it's advantageous to have a gender identity other than using the basic biology of sex.

Maybe I’m thick, but I’m not seeing your point here.

The Bill is expressed to make amendments to the Employment Equality Act, and so words and phrases used in the Bill will have the same meaning as they have in the rest of EEA. The EEA prohibits discrimination in employment on a number of grounds. “Gender” is one of the prohibited grounds, and “sexual orientation” is another, but “sex” is not a prohibited ground of discrimination. Neither is “gender identity”.

For the purposes of the Act, people are of different genders if one is a woman and the other is a man. Anyone claiming gender discrimination would therefore be well-advised to identify as a woman or as a man. It does not matter if they specify further (e.g. “cisgender woman”; “transgender man”; “demiwoman”; “intergender man”). But if they completely reject both “man” and “woman” as gender identities, they may have difficulty fitting themselves into the anti-discrimination provisions of the EEA.

OK. That may be a criticism of the EEA, though it remains to be seen how much of a problem it gives rise to in practice, given that complete rejection of both “man” and “woman” as gender identities is extremely rare in Irish society. But as long as that is the framework of the Act, then it makes sense that information on gender (men/women) disparities in pay should be collected (which is what the Bill provides for). Even if statistically significant information on disparities by reference to gender identities which exclude both “man” and “woman” could be collected, which is doubtful given the small number of people involved, it’s not clear what the point of collecting it would be.

Glass fused light

You are correct, it's the UK act which has both sex and gender, so thats my new thing learned for today.

The Irish discrimination act defined gender as either a man or a woman.
And the per the gender recognition act we currently only have 2 genders?

Peregrinus

Glass fused light wrote: »

You are correct, it's the UK act which has both sex and gender, so thats my new thing learned for today.

The Irish discrimination act defined gender as either a man or a woman.
And the per the gender recognition act we currently only have 2 genders?

Basically, yes. Under the GRA you can change your gender from male to female or vice versa, but that's it.

And (from a quick Google) a recent review of the legislation doesn't seem to dislcose much pressure to expand this. Most of the discussion was on the right of minors, as opposed to adults, to change gender, and the implications of their doing so. There doesn't seem to be any lobbying on behalf of people who want a non-binary identification.

GM228

waynerooney wrote: »

thanks @gm228. is that an opinion or fact? or somewhere in between

It is fact, note the bill title - Gender Pay Gap Information Bill 2019.

That is what the Bill provides for (aswell as allowing the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission take legal action for such regulations to be complied with and the WRC to investigate such compliance).

The preamble of the Bill breaks it down:-

An Act to amend the Employment Equality Act 1998 to require regulations to be made that will require certain employers to publish information relating to the remuneration of their employees by reference to the gender of such employees for the purpose of showing whether there are differences in such remuneration referable to gender and, if there are such differences, the size of such differences and to require such employers to publish statements setting out the reasons for such differences and the measures (if any) taken, or proposed to be taken, by those employers to eliminate or reduce such differences; to make a consequential amendment to the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act 2014; and to provide for related matters.

waynerooney

seems that there are better thinkers on this forum than there are in the dail.