Witnessing a car incident

themandan6611

I witnessed a car incident during the week and wondering about the legality of what I witnessed.

Driver A drove their car all along the side of a parked empty car. The car was scrapped from back to front and the side mirror broken. The driver flew off and went on their merry way.

Yours truly got the registration number and later that evening went to the Gardai station to report it (in case the owner of the car that was damaged had reported too but would not have the registration number as they did not witness the incident).

I was told the detail I had (time, place, date, reg number etc) was no use and only the parked car owner can report it, no details asked and given a rather abrupt go on your way with yourself message.

I presume that this correct Gardai procedure and irrespective of witnessing damage the detail is useless ?

Will pop into the house of the car that was damaged to share the details with them.

Samuel T. Cogley

Gardaí simply avoiding work.

Fair play to you for going out of your way.

slavetothegrind

how do you know the owners address?

...Ghost...

Crime witnessed. Details offered. Gardaí not interested :rolleyes:

And they wonder why people don't report crime.

mordeith

slavetothegrind wrote: »

how do you know the owners address?

Presumably the car was parked outside the owners house?

listermint

That's leaving the scene of an accident and that guard wasn't doing his job. You could take it further to the sergeant.

I'd be livid if that was my car.

Samuel T. Cogley

slavetothegrind wrote: »

how do you know the owners address?

Usually a car will be parked outside the owners house, if not there's a good chance the home-owner will know who it belongs to. Hell I even know a few of the commuters cars in my area.

slavetothegrind

fair play to you op for persuing it, i know i would be extremely grateful if it was my car damaged.

themandan6611

mordeith wrote: »

Presumably the car was parked outside the owners house?

It was indeed, early morning so unlikely to be someone parking and hopping on a bus.

What would the next step be as I am unhappy with the lack on interest and the curt nature of the Garda ?

slavetothegrind

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Usually a car will be parked outside the owners house, if not there's a good chance the home-owner will know who it belongs to. Hell I even know a few of the commuters cars in my area.

sorry i had car park in my head as i have seen so many incidents in them.

Was silly assumption.

listermint

Phone traffic watch on 1890205805

Contrary to believe this stuff is taken seriously. Obviously not by the lad you got on to

Samuel T. Cogley

slavetothegrind wrote: »

sorry i had car park in my head as i have seen so many incidents in them.

Was silly assumption.

It was a fair point, tbh.

slavetothegrind

Complaints about Garda behavior are investigated you know. I witnessed an arguement between someone i know and a Garda over a parking issue and he subsequently complained ( in the wrong as it happens) but was contacted afterwards and there was a process!

We Irish need to learn to complain more voiciferously ( me included)

themandan6611

listermint wrote: »

Phone traffic watch on 1890205805

Contrary to believe this stuff is taken seriously. Obviously not by the lad you got on to

Did that initially, was advised as an actual incident / accident happened it would have to be reported to the Gardai directly - rang the station yesterday and was advised to call in and then tuffed out so to speak.

I think I will ping a complaint via the GSOC this evening

Maybe a very minor matter, however it negatively affects confidence in them and you know what manners cost nothing.

Deadlift kid

themandan6611 wrote:

Driver A drove their car all along the side of a parked empty car. The car was scrapped from back to front and the side mirror broken. The driver flew off and went on their merry way.

themandan6611 wrote:

Yours truly got the registration number and later that evening went to the Gardai station to report it (in case the owner of the car that was damaged had reported too but would not have the registration number as they did not witness the incident).

Fair play to ya I know what this is like from experience i had a car bmw m3 coupe destroyed on me a few yrs ago,

was heartbroken nobody saw nothing no cameras etc only had the car afew weeks after pondering for yrs whether to buy one, I was gutted a big tear up drivers side left with to fix it up myself at my own cost (didn't want to go through insurance at the time high premium)

But imo that gardas behaviour was disgraceful that's his job its hit and run it is still rta you been a witness and he just dismissed ya then they wonder why people have no confidence in them , a lot of them dont want to do anything an garda siochana needs a complete overhall id pursue it more but fair play to you...

tedpan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPGb0IQdFlI

listermint

listermint wrote: »

Phone traffic watch on 1890205805

Contrary to believe this stuff is taken seriously. Obviously not by the lad you got on to

Whole experience of OP wouldn’t give you much confidence though, would it?

Samuel T. Cogley

As soon as anything is logged, like through trafficwatch it's a different ball game.

ED E

Not sure why Traffic Watch deflected you, especially as those are civilians that shouldnt have Templemore Syndrome.

Live events (like a drunk ahead of you) should go straight to the local station, TW was perfectly suitable for a concluded event like you describe.

4ensic15

Leave a note on the scaraped car saying you saw what happened and leave contact details. The car that cuased the damage may be owned by a garda.

RoYoBo

ED E wrote: »

Live events (like a drunk ahead of you) should go straight to the local station,

A few months ago, my uncle was driving in a rural county behind a van with [Named Town Furniture] painted on the back and sides. Van was weaving all over the road and the driver seemed to be very drunk. He emerged from roundabouts without stopping, drove onto main roads without looking, crossed the white line continuously and generally caused mayhem for at least 20 minutes with many other drivers breaking and blowing horns etc.

The dangerous driver carried on with his journey through a fairly large town followed by a line of cars desperately trying to pass him. My uncle drove around trying to find a Garda (the station was closed) and finally spotted the squad car parked outside a cafe. On attempting to report the dangerous driver to the two uniformed Gardai eating inside, he was told to take himself off unless he was prepared to go to the station during opening hours, sign a statement and be ready to go to court himself! They refused to even take the details from him.

My uncle was really worried about the possibility of an imminent accident and when he tried to impress on the guards the seriousness of it all, he was insultingly told to calm down and go away or he'd be arrested himself. This was the first time my uncle had ever approached the Gardai for anything like this - he's a quiet elderly man and felt totally humiliated.

I tried to get him to report it elsewhere since but he has lost all faith in the Gardai and vows he'll never report anything again. If I didn't know him for the honest and upright man he is, I'd probably think it was a made-up tale.

Muahahaha

listermint wrote: »

Phone traffic watch on 1890205805

Contrary to believe this stuff is taken seriously. Obviously not by the lad you got on to

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

As soon as anything is logged, like through trafficwatch it's a different ball game.

Would agree with this, Traffic Watch is the way to go because then it is logged and official.

Was in a similar position to the OP a couple of years back, witnessed a RTA where a taxi knocked over a cyclist through dangerous driving. Went to report it in Pearse St station who were so busy they told me it would be several hours of waiting before anyone could take a statement. But the Garda there (a very helpful and genuine lad) said I could report it in any station, namely my local one. So I went home and typed up a 500 word witness statement of the accident, then down to the local station who told me that I couldnt report it there and had to go all the way back to Pearse St. Told them that the Pearse St garda said I could but they still wouldnt budge, they were shoving me form pillar to post.

So went back to Pearse St station a few days later had to spend a good while slowly reading out the statement to the Garda as he wrote it down on official Garda notepaper. Said he could not just accept the typed statement with my signature. Whole thing took a good hour. At the end of it all I just thought to myself how bloody hard it is to do the right thing. If it happened again I would just ring Trafficwatch, doing that would have saved me a whole lot of hassle. I'd imagine other people who are put through that kind of crap just give up and the crime ends up going unreported as a result.

98q76e12hrflnk

Muahahaha wrote: »

Would agree with this, Traffic Watch is the way to go because then it is logged and official.

Was in a similar position to the OP a couple of years back, witnessed a RTA where a taxi knocked over a cyclist through dangerous driving. Went to report it in Pearse St station who were so busy they told me it would be several hours of waiting before anyone could take a statement. But the Garda there (a very helpful and genuine lad) said I could report it in any station, namely my local one. So I went home and typed up a 500 word witness statement of the accident, then down to the local station who told me that I couldnt report it there and had to go all the way back to Pearse St. Told them that the Pearse St garda said I could but they still wouldnt budge, they were shoving me form pillar to post.




So went back to Pearse St station a few days later had to spend a good while slowly reading out the statement to the Garda as he wrote it down on official Garda notepaper. Said he could not just accept the typed statement with my signature. Whole thing took a good hour. At the end of it all I just thought to myself how bloody hard it is to do the right thing. If it happened again I would just ring Trafficwatch, doing that would have saved me a whole lot of hassle. I'd imagine other people who are put through that kind of crap just give up and the crime ends up going unreported as a result.

Jaysus, they guards should be made pass an medical test every month to see if they have a healthy and working brain.

Mod
Take it easy there. I have had many dealings with AGS, Incidents quoted are not typical inho.

AnnaStezia

What is the actual legal position about Gardai taking information from the public about an alleged offence ? Are they obliged to receive such information ?

I am amazed that Gardaí told OP that a report of the incident must come from the injured party.

If OP had witnessed an armed robber jumping in to the escape vehicle and proffered detailed information on that would it be refused because someone else has not yet reported it

BrianBoru00

AnnaStezia wrote: »

What is the actual legal position about Gardai taking information from the public about an alleged offence ? Are they obliged to receive such information ?

I am amazed that Gardaí told OP that a report of the incident must come from the injured party.

If OP had witnessed an armed robber jumping in to the escape vehicle and proffered detailed information on that would it be refused because someone else has not yet reported it

Yes.

Muahahaha

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Yes.

Can you clarify that or point to the legislation. Like receiving information is one thing, but acting on it another. There seems to be a pattern where some Gardai can give you the run around when you're trying to submit an allegation of a crime. I'm also aware of them making legal judgments i.e 'sorry thats a civil matter, we cant help you' in an instance where violence had been threatened and could be proved by text message, they still didnt want to act.

Discodog

The evidence, breath tests etc, show that it's hardly a minority. There is a clear unwritten policy of avoiding,what is deemed to be unnecessary, work. The OP should make a formal written complaint as should anyone who is fobbed off.

4ensic15

Muahahaha wrote: »

Can you clarify that or point to the legislation. Like receiving information is one thing, but acting on it another. There seems to be a pattern where some Gardai can give you the run around when you're trying to submit an allegation of a crime. I'm also aware of them making legal judgments i.e 'sorry thats a civil matter, we cant help you' in an instance where violence had been threatened and could be proved by text message, they still didnt want to act.

Write a letter to the Superintendent. A garda tol;d a friend of mine that the only reason he was investigating her complaint (which led to a successful prosecution) was to stop her writing to his Superintendent.

Galadriel

This happened to me a year ago in Rathmines, I witnessed a woman hit someones car repeatedly while she tried to parallel park, I took a picture of her reg and called the local Garda station, they said only the person that owns the car can make a complaint.

I don't understand though, if you actually see someone committing a crime and then driving off it doesn't matter as long as it wasn't your property that was damaged?

GM228

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

AnnaStezia wrote: »

What is the actual legal position about Gardai taking information from the public about an alleged offence ? Are they obliged to receive such information ?

I am amazed that Gardaí told OP that a report of the incident must come from the injured party.

If OP had witnessed an armed robber jumping in to the escape vehicle and proffered detailed information on that would it be refused because someone else has not yet reported it

Yes.

Gardaí are not obliged to perform any of their prosecutorial or investigatory functions, they have complete discretion in that regard.

UrbanFox

GM228 wrote: »

Gardaí are not obliged to perform any of their prosecutorial or investigatory functions, they have complete discretion in that regard.

Are there any statutory or even non-statutory parameters that would govern the exercise of such discretion ?

themandan6611

Got the acknowledgement of my complaint from GSOC yesterday, will see how it rolls and will update here.

I guess as a previous poster said, we don't call things out enough and have a culture of shoulder shrugging, little steps by a lot is probably the only thing we can do.

Re the Traffic Watch option, they were my initial port of call but as soon as they heard there was damage caused they advised (rightly or wrongly) they could not deal with it and it needed to be brought to the attention of the Gardai.

Muahahaha

GM228 wrote: »

Gardaí are not obliged to perform any of their prosecutorial or investigatory functions, they have complete discretion in that regard.

Having no obligation to investigate a crime seems a bizarre way to operate. Does anyone know the legislation that outlines this discretion? If they are not going to investigate an alleged crime they should at least be giving the public a valid reason for not doing so.

Discodog

Muahahaha wrote: »

Having no obligation to investigate a crime seems a bizarre way to operate. Does anyone know the legislation that outlines this discretion? If they are not going to investigate an alleged crime they should at least be giving the public a valid reason for not doing so.

And it could an incentive to corruption.

Muahahaha

Discodog wrote: »

And it could an incentive to corruption.

It certainly could but the main thing is you'd just think that if a crime is reported they are obliged to investigate. I wonder what way it is done in the UK?

BrianBoru00

Muahahaha wrote: »

Having no obligation to investigate a crime seems a bizarre way to operate. Does anyone know the legislation that outlines this discretion? If they are not going to investigate an alleged crime they should at least be giving the public a valid reason for not doing so.

Just clarifying - Hitting another car isn't a crime.
Leaving the scene of a traffic offence and failing to report it would be.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/72/enacted/en/html#sec72

Muahahaha wrote: »

Can you clarify that or point to the legislation. Like receiving information is one thing, but acting on it another. There seems to be a pattern where some Gardai can give you the run around when you're trying to submit an allegation of a crime. I'm also aware of them making legal judgments i.e 'sorry thats a civil matter, we cant help you' in an instance where violence had been threatened and could be proved by text message, they still didnt want to act.

I don't believe it is explicitly stated in statute, rather it comes from the Garda Siochana Act :
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/20/section/7/enacted/en/html

But organisationally what the OP has reported on is very wrong and against several of the arcticles in the gardas own standards :
https://www.garda.ie/en/About-Us/Publications/Policy-Documents/Declaration-of-Professional-Values-and-Ethical-Standards.pdf
Gardaí have a contract in which they are obliged to uphold to law of the land so that gives broad scope so while they do not have to pursue an investigation they do have to have a reason for not pursuing it - e.g. Mad Max reporting that aliens have destroyed his picket fence!!

GM228 wrote: »

Gardaí are not obliged to perform any of their prosecutorial or investigatory functions, they have complete discretion in that regard.

I don't believe this is the case as per above comment.

GM228

Muahahaha wrote: »

Having no obligation to investigate a crime seems a bizarre way to operate. [B[Does anyone know the legislation that outlines this discretion?
[/b] If they are not going to investigate an alleged crime they should at least be giving the public a valid reason for not doing so.

It is a common law power (and the oldest common law power still in existance) as opposed to a legislated power.

Nearly every Police force in the world has power of discretion.

Muahahaha wrote: »

It certainly could but the main thing is you'd just think that if a crime is reported they are obliged to investigate. I wonder what way it is done in the UK?

The UK also have a power of discretion, but a Police officer there can be prosecuted for failure to act depending on the facts of the case.

Previously a member of Gardaí could be prosecuted for failure to investigate a crime, but only if it was (a) a felony (which was a serious crime) and (b) there was a named suspect, that is no longer the case.

GM228

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Just clarifying - Hitting another car isn't a crime.
Leaving the scene of a traffic offence and failing to report it would be.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/72/enacted/en/html#sec72

Hitting another car in and of itself is not a crime, but, it can potentially result in another offence depending on the facts.

Also you are citing the wrong section of the 1961 Act, S106 is the appropriate section.
 

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

I don't believe it is explicitly stated in statute, rather it comes from the Garda Siochana Act :
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/20/section/7/enacted/en/html

It comes from common law, not the 2005 Act, although the power is protected by the Act.
 

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

But organisationally what the OP has reported on is very wrong and against several of the arcticles in the gardas own standards :
https://www.garda.ie/en/About-Us/Publications/Policy-Documents/Declaration-of-Professional-Values-and-Ethical-Standards.pdf
Gardaí have a contract in which they are obliged to uphold to law of the land so that gives broad scope so while they do not have to pursue an investigation they do have to have a reason for not pursuing it - e.g. Mad Max reporting that aliens have destroyed his picket fence!!

Neither standards nor contractual provisions can over ride common law or statute.



 

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

Gardaí are not obliged to perform any of their prosecutorial or investigatory functions, they have complete discretion in that regard.

 I don't believe this is the case as per above comment.

It is the case, have a read through this thread:-

[Url] https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057648766[/url]

NSAman

declan2693 wrote: »

Mod
Take it easy there. I have had many dealings with AGS, Incidents quoted are not typical inho[/B].

Sorry, but the experiences of people on this thread and the many I have had with the gardai, seem to back up what many people think.

There is a severe lack of following up on incidents, laziness and frankly, don’t give a ****tery by many in the force.

I could give many many examples personally but I would not like to bore people. The above examples speak for themselves.

BrianBoru00

GM228 wrote: »

Hitting another car in and of itself is not a crime, but, it can potentially result in another offence depending on the facts.

Also you are citing the wrong section of the 1961 Act, S106 is the appropriate section.





It comes from common law, not the 2005 Act, although the power is protected by the Act.





Neither standards nor contractual provisions can over ride common law or statute.





It is the case, have a read through this thread:-

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057648766

I'll have to bow to your superior legal knowledge. My interactions are more to do with the practical day to day running of the force where they are obliged to take a report.
So while not legally obliged, for the force to run correctly they should still be taking the report.

If they don't take a report, from an operational point of view they would certainly be open to disciplinary action. Now as you've pointed out they would win a legal case based on that other discussion.
And I suppose given it is the Legal Discussion thread my reply was not 100% accurate - but were I in the OPs situation I would be asking the member for their name and supervisor and making a complaint.

GM228

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

If they don't take a report, from an operational point of view they would certainly be open to disciplinary action

They can't lawfully be disciplined for using discretion unless it is used for their personal gain.

BrianBoru00

GM228 wrote: »

They can't lawfully be disciplined for using discretion unless it is used for their personal gain.

But wouldn't that just come down to proving its a discretionary decision as opposed to just plain laziness in not following procedures?

Credit Checker Moose

Surely there is some distinction between discretion and dereliction of duty?

Could they use discretion not to investigate serious offences?

GM228

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

But wouldn't that just come down to proving its a discretionary decision as opposed to just plain laziness in not following procedures?

It does not really matter if they are being lazy or not, discretion is a choice which they can lawfully make, how they come to make that choice is irrelevant.

GM228

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

Surely there is some distinction between discretion and dereliction of duty?

Could they use discretion not to investigate serious offences?

Well discretion has been applied (both here and in the UK) to allegations of rape (and to note the highest courts in both jurisdictions aswell as the European Court of Human Rights have not sided with the victims when they later claimed for negligence), it does not get much more serious than that.

bobbyss

themandan6611 wrote:

Got the acknowledgement of my complaint from GSOC yesterday, will see how it rolls and will update here.

How about cc to Drew Harrison (is that his name?). He wants to change things. Including good for nothing lazy gardai.

Mod
Be nice here, pls

themandan6611

bobbyss wrote: »

How about cc to Drew Harrison (is that his name?). He wants to change things. Including good for nothing lazy gardai.

Mod
Be nice here, pls

I would hope that GSOC produce an annual report much like the financial ombudsman does giving details on complaints (be they upheld, partially upheld or rejected) which Garda Management can, if they so wish, review.

kurtainsider

GM228 wrote: »

They can't lawfully be disciplined for using discretion unless it is used for their personal gain.

Could this be true? It sounds like nonsense to me. In that case a guard can only be disciplined for corruption where the gain personally from it. Discretion, while essential, is wide open to abuse in that case by guards who are too lazy, hungover, depressed, tired, cynical etc etc to actually do the job the taxpayer pays them to do. It that actually the case?

GM228

kurtainsider wrote: »

Could this be true? It sounds like nonsense to me. In that case a guard can only be disciplined for corruption where the gain personally from it. Discretion, while essential, is wide open to abuse in that case by guards who are too lazy, hungover, depressed, tired, cynical etc etc to actually do the job the taxpayer pays them to do. It that actually the case?

Gardaí have the ultimate discretion when it comes to their duties, you can't discipline them for doing something they are lawfully entitled to do. The common law allows them do so, it does not carry a subject to explaining yourself provision.

Credit Checker Moose

So they could ignore a murder if they wanted to?

GM228

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

So they could ignore a murder if they wanted to?

Strictly speaking yes, but the reality is they wouldn't, although they have ignored allegations of rape (of a minor I might add) previously.