What happens after roundup

_Brian

So it seems the public war on roundup is winning.

Couple awarded $2bn in US weed killer cancer trial

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0514/1049287-bayer_roundup/

What the public don’t seem to have grasped is that if roundup is lost then a host of other pesticides will take their place costing god knows what and carrying god knows what risks.

I wonder did Bauer have some sort of get out clause on the purchase contracts as this could break them.

Nekarsulm

I was just thinking about this yesterday.
Weed-licking rushes.
Either they tweek the formula slightly and call it something different, or parts of the country would be only good for planting.
Especially with the general trend against MCPA as a spray.

_Brian

I presume the first move would be to make it used under licence only and remove it from the shelves for common use.

The big issue for bayer is the glyphosate resistant crops, soooo much money is invested down that line that they will fight a very long time to keep it.

It’s the only cost effective spray for rushes on the market.

Waffletraktor

Let the idiots ban it and let the unintended consequences run riot imo.

stefanovich

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Let the idiots ban it and let the unintended consequences run riot imo.

Learn how to farm without poison?

Grueller

stefanovich wrote: »

Learn how to farm without poison?

Let cereal crop yields be drastically reduced, and in turn food prices rise.

stefanovich

Grueller wrote: »

Let cereal crop yields be drastically reduced, and in turn food prices rise.

All my food is already organic and not that much more expensive.

Waffletraktor

stefanovich wrote: »

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Let the idiots ban it and let the unintended consequences run riot imo.

Learn how to farm without poison?

So more cultivation’s destroying soil and accelerate soil c loss. Cereals become unfit for human consumption as uncontrollable grass weeds like Bg and scutch become even more of an issue and cause ergot ala the ussr in the 50’s. But you’ve self righteous on your side I guess.

Waffletraktor

stefanovich wrote: »

Grueller wrote: »

Let cereal crop yields be drastically reduced, and in turn food prices rise.

All my food is already organic and not that much more expensive.

Didn’t stop spud blight becoming a thing.

BarryD2

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Didn’t stop spud blight becoming a thing.

What the public perhaps should be concerned about is the various herbicides recommended by Teagasc both during the growing of spuds and to burn off the foliage prior to harvesting:

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/crops/potatoes/agronomy-potatoes/weeds/

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/crops/potatoes/agronomy-potatoes/harvesting/

Stuff like glyphosate and Diquat - wouldn't you be thinking that some of these must get drawn through the foliage and soil into the tubers we eat?

Donald Trump

stefanovich wrote: »

All my food is already organic and not that much more expensive.

Well, perhaps you are are naive and conclude that if nobody used any chemicals that all food would then be organic and be priced at current organic price-levels in the shops. You're in for a bit of a land if you think that.


Or maybe you know that you could absorb, say, a 25% increase in the price of your food without noticing. That is good for you, but there would be literally billions on the planet who could not.



If you want to be self righteous, then either grow everything you eat yourself or only eat what is grown locally. If you are importing your (organic) bananas from Costa Rica, you are feeding the same industrial machine and supply chains that push prices down and force all producers to produce for minimal margins. Which in turn necessitates more "efficient" processes such as eliminating waste in the form of weeds from a crop.

ganmo

looks like monsanto sold at the right time

The first thing is it should be taken off the shelves of garden centers, theres too many gobshi... looking for a pristine lawn.

patsy_mccabe

stefanovich wrote: »

All my food is already organic and not that much more expensive.

How do you produce enough food to feed 7 billion people organically? If you can answer that, I'll take my hat off to you.

Nekarsulm

Best spuds I ever grew were ones I sprayed with Gramoxone and Simizine just as the first shoots peeped through the soil.

stefanovich

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

How do you produce enough food to feed 7 billion people organically? If you can answer that, I'll take my hat off to you.

There's only 4 million odd people in Ireland. I am pretty sure we could feed ourselves organically.

hopeso

Roundup is already only a shadow of it’s former self.....I don’t know what they’ve removed from it, but it doesn’t work like it used to.
I noticed a new roundup at my local supplier the other day. I can’t remember the name of it. It was called Roundup ‘something’. It was much darker in colour than the ordinary roundup. The lad there said it was stronger than the original roundup. Has anyone used it?

Del2005

stefanovich wrote: »

There's only 4 million odd people in Ireland. I am pretty sure we could feed ourselves organically.

And what about the millions we feed in other countries, where are they supposed to get their food? And when they stop sending us medicines in response how do we look after our population?

patsy_mccabe

stefanovich wrote: »

There's only 4 million odd people in Ireland. I am pretty sure we could feed ourselves organically.

That's not what I asked you. Look, just pop into Woodies or B&Q and the first thing you will see inside the door is Roundup sprays. Now, if people feel they need them for small semi-dethached houses, you can understand how a large scale arable farmer in the USA or Austrailia feels when he has 10,000s of acres of weeds to control. Even if he goes in with a mechanical weedkiller (no sprays) you are looking at serious extra diesel and therefore higher carbon emissions. No easy answer, my friend.

_Brian

stefanovich wrote: »

All my food is already organic and not that much more expensive.

Organic food prices are abnormally low.

If overall world yields drop dramatically there would be a surge in prices across the board as countries scramble for food security.

ganmo

stefanovich wrote: »

There's only 4 million odd people in Ireland. I am pretty sure we could feed ourselves organically.

yes if you don't want to eat white bread, cakes, sugar coffee, tea, and most of the variety in your diet

Donald Trump

stefanovich wrote: »

There's only 4 million odd people in Ireland. I am pretty sure we could feed ourselves organically.

I think that most council have access to allotments. So even if you don't have a garden, you have access to grow your own fruit and veg.

Say my name

There'll be some alternative.

Too much of anything will kill a plant.
Nitrogen, Boron, Sodium, etc.

Upstream

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

No easy answer, my friend.

I thinks as farmers we will have to relearn everything. Simple as that
Everything we have relied upon like chemical pesticides and fertilizers are no longer sustainable, and may actually do much more harm than good. So how do we make the change?

It's not going to be easy, but there are a few people starting to succeed without roundup.

Buford T Justice had a great picture of rush control by topping and then fertilizing so the grass could out compete the rushes. Much more beneficial than spraying or weedlicking. I think farm yard manure has the same effect or better, because it boosts the biology in the soil.

John Kempf of Advancing Eco Agriculture in the states does a good talk about plant health and resistance to disease (check out his YouTube talks on the plant health pyramid) In short, a health plant growing in health soil with the right nutrition will become immune to plant pests and fungal diseases and have much higher yields. I'd like to hear some tillage peoples thoughts on this, to see how relevant these practices could be in Ireland. Gabe Brown in the states and the Haggertys in Australia are farming massive acreages without roundup and getting fantastic yields so it can be done.

Tools like multi-species cover crops, farmyard manure and compost will become essential in the future. But we have to learn how to use these tools while dropping the ones we have relied on up to now.

Not an easy task but we'll get there.

charolais0153

Say my name wrote: »

There'll be some alternative.

Too much of anything will kill a plant.
Nitrogen, Boron, Sodium, etc.

could kill the soil too if you werent careful.

people get too caught up on 'chemicals',is C3H8NO5P too much different to c6h12o6 in reality? but when you say the word chemicals people get a hiisy fit. water is a chemical believe it or not

80sDiesel

ganmo wrote: »

looks like monsanto sold at the right time

The first thing is it should be taken off the shelves of garden centers, theres too many gobshi... looking for a pristine lawn.

So true. I leave my back house lawn grow during summer and it's always teaming with life. The putting green desert lawns of my neighbors are a big contrast.

endainoz

Upstream wrote:

Buford T Justice had a great picture of rush control by topping and then fertilizing so the grass could out compete the rushes. Much more beneficial than spraying or weedlicking. I think farm yard manure has the same effect or better, because it boosts the biology in the soil.

Upstream wrote:

John Kempf of Advancing Eco Agriculture in the states does a good talk about plant health and resistance to disease (check out his YouTube talks on the plant health pyramid) In short, a health plant growing in health soil with the right nutrition will become immune to plant pests and fungal diseases and have much higher yields. I'd like to hear some tillage peoples thoughts on this, to see how relevant these practices could be in Ireland. Gabe Brown in the states and the Haggertys in Australia are farming massive acreages without roundup and getting fantastic yields so it can be done.

Upstream wrote:

Tools like multi-species cover crops, farmyard manure and compost will become essential in the future. But we have to learn how to use these tools while dropping the ones we have relied on up to now.

Finally some practical thinking here! Another great method is being developed by Jim Cronin, a well regarded organic vegetable grower from East Clare. He is developing a no dig vegetable growing system in conjunction with tillage farmers from around the country. The more you till soil the more minerals are taken out of it. His idea is to vastly improve soil fertility and to plant different vegetables that compliment each other and as you said above, to improve soil fertility so much that it is immune to pests and fungi. All of this is done using a no dig system, which roughly involves stuff that we all have access to. Putting down rotten silage and plastic over it for the winter. Then cutting holes and planting as it is. I might not have explained in as well but I have an article on the method is anybody wants me to email it to them. There won't ever be a chemical sprayed on my place again that's for sure.

gozunda

stefanovich wrote: »

Learn how to farm without poison?

They're herbicides - but sure go ahead and use emotive terms. Herbicide btw means the selective killing of certain plants

The use of herbicides is at best a balance between necessity of managing weeds for crop yield and land becoming unusable for the purposes of agriculture. Interestingly the biggest users of herbicides by volume is the arable and horticultural sector.

Tbh few if any food producers are willingly going to spend large amounts of money on something that is not necessary.

At present herbicide use is strictly regulated. Do problems with the use of these chemicals exist? Yes they do. That is not disputed.

Currently the world has enough food to feed all of its 7 billion inhabitants - that some don't eat enough is directly attributed to corruption, conflict, poverty and natural disasters.

Much of the current food availability in the world is as a result of the advantages of what is known as the green revolution- whereby improved strains of crops etc and improved targeted herbicides allowed greater crop yields.

Personally I support the minimising of the use of such chemicals - however the fact is the net good (much like as the case with vacines) outweighs much of the negitative and are required to help produce the food which people are dependant on.

Until such time we develop fully reliable biological or other controls - then herbicides are most likley going to be continued to be licensed for use. And that's how it is.

endainoz

The main issue I have with herbicides, whether used correctly or not is the huge impact they have on wildlife and the insect population. That's more significant than linking roundup to cancer in humans. It does depend on what a person's definition of a healthy looking field should be. Most people's opinion would be fresh rygrass with animals grazing on vast green pastures with little or no diversity. But if you look deeper, a field like that isn't too accommodating to wildlife. I have 10 Ha if LIPP as part of GLAS, as most of the lads here know, it can't be topped until July at the earliest. Now there are plenty of rushes in the they I'm mad to cut and try to control but at the same time, the variety of plants in there at the moment with plenty of bees and butterfly's around the place is really great to see. My definition of a healthy looking field has recently changed quite a bit.

_Brian

One of the issues I see is the lack of compromise and desire to drive an agenda to its extreme in society.

What ever happened to the middle ground ??

Lots of farmers I know won’t entertain Glas because of the late cutting dates. It’s keeping allot of land out. Surely there has to be an option to have some highly productive grassland for silage while retaining 50% for traditional meadow? That way we could get security of feed for the winter while bringing more land into traditional meadow for biodiversity.

When did things go so black and white, surely there is the option to mix farming methods to benefit and accommodate all.

Danzy

stefanovich wrote: »

Learn how to farm without poison?

I hate Roundup, it is lethal and in time will be seen as worse that tobacco.

I can learn how to farm without it but will the consumer learn to buy that dearer food.

Unlikely.

Buford T. Justice XIX

_Brian wrote: »

One of the issues I see is the lack of compromise and desire to drive an agenda to its extreme in society.

What ever happened to the middle ground ??

Lots of farmers I know won’t entertain Glas because of the late cutting dates. It’s keeping allot of land out. Surely there has to be an option to have some highly productive grassland for silage while retaining 50% for traditional meadow? That way we could get security of feed for the winter while bringing more land into traditional meadow for biodiversity.

When did things go so black and white, surely there is the option to mix farming methods to benefit and accommodate all.

There's no middle ground, Brian.

The only wildlife areas permitted are artificially created ones and we will continue to be fined for allowing natural wildlife areas to grow.

There's no boxes there to tick for natural wildlife areas:rolleyes:

Danzy

Upstream wrote: »

I thinks as farmers we will have to relearn everything. Simple as that
Everything we have relied upon like chemical pesticides and fertilizers are no longer sustainable, and may actually do much more harm than good. So how do we make the change?

It's not going to be easy, but there are a few people starting to succeed without roundup.

Buford T Justice had a great picture of rush control by topping and then fertilizing so the grass could out compete the rushes. Much more beneficial than spraying or weedlicking. I think farm yard manure has the same effect or better, because it boosts the biology in the soil.

John Kempf of Advancing Eco Agriculture in the states does a good talk about plant health and resistance to disease (check out his YouTube talks on the plant health pyramid) In short, a health plant growing in health soil with the right nutrition will become immune to plant pests and fungal diseases and have much higher yields. I'd like to hear some tillage peoples thoughts on this, to see how relevant these practices could be in Ireland. Gabe Brown in the states and the Haggertys in Australia are farming massive acreages without roundup and getting fantastic yields so it can be done.

Tools like multi-species cover crops, farmyard manure and compost will become essential in the future. But we have to learn how to use these tools while dropping the ones we have relied on up to now.

Not an easy task but we'll get there.

I'd say that is what will happen, whether people like it or not.

The problem is the EU will increase imports from places like Brazil where standards are not adhered to and chemical abuse in agri use or agri medicine is blatant and done with no care to health.

_Brian

Danzy wrote: »

I hate Roundup, it is lethal and in time will be seen as worse that tobacco.

I can learn how to farm without it but will the consumer learn to buy that dearer food.

Unlikely.

I think consumers can’t link the two events together.

I’m not saying more expensive food would be a problem for me, it’s so cheap now it’s not antespected commodity at all.

But when their roundup and other common chemicals are banned and their food bill is up 50 or 60% they will see things very differently.

Danzy

_Brian wrote: »

I think consumers can’t link the two events together.

I’m not saying more expensive food would be a problem for me, it’s so cheap now it’s not antespected commodity at all.

But when their roundup and other common chemicals are banned and their food bill is up 50 or 60% they will see things very differently.

That will have to mean food imports being limited

_Brian

It might force more people to dig up their lawns and grow some of their own produce. That would be a welcome sight.

4068ac1elhodqr

Isn't the bee population (pollinators) already being darastically reduced due to the overuse of pesticides?
No bees = no yield.

The future of farming may well involve indoor growing technology, specialising in varable LED lighting, mobile apps, vertical farming, intelligent agriculture and so on.
Then add in automation/robotics, there's farms now wherby the cows milk themselves, and get a free massage on the way out, without any human interaction.

Future farming will become like power generation: localised, smarter, and in higher frequency smaller instalations.

Nekarsulm

Paityn Tight Ram wrote: »

Isn't the bee population (pollinators) already being darastically reduced due to the overuse of pesticides?
No bees = no yield.

The future of farming may well involve indoor growing technology, specialising in varable LED lighting, mobile apps, vertical farming, intelligent agriculture and so on.
Then add in automation/robotics, there's farms now wherby the cows milk themselves, and get a free massage on the way out, without any human interaction.

Future farming will become like power generation: localised, smarter, and in higher frequency smaller instalations.

Varorra mites took most native wild swarms/colonies.
I live in Cavan, and bar a few hundred acres of arable up around Mountnugent, I'd safely bet the entire county is pesticide free.
Still no wild colonies, so I don't know how people equate spraying pesticides with colony collaspe.

Doctors room ghost

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Varorra mites took most native wild swarms/colonies.
I live in Cavan, and bar a few hundred acres of arable up around Mountnugent, I'd safely bet the entire county is pesticide free.
Still no wild colonies, so I don't know how people equate spraying pesticides with colony collaspe.

I’d take the bet and counter bet that 95% of the houses you would call to would have a bottle of round up or gallup in the shed for spraying driveways or spot spraying weeds.
I reckon that roundup is lethal for man and animal.did you ever see the dirty brown slime that grows on ground that’s sprayed with it.its like a seaweed.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Paityn Tight Ram wrote: »

Isn't the bee population (pollinators) already being darastically reduced due to the overuse of pesticides?
No bees = no yield.

The future of farming may well involve indoor growing technology, specialising in varable LED lighting, mobile apps, vertical farming, intelligent agriculture and so on.
Then add in automation/robotics, there's farms now wherby the cows milk themselves, and get a free massage on the way out, without any human interaction.

Future farming will become like power generation: localised, smarter, and in higher frequency smaller instalations.

The vast majority of food grown is wind pollinated so fewer bees will mean less of those crops. The effect on food availability will be very small.

Upstream

gozunda wrote: »

Much of the current food availability in the world is as a result of the advantages of what is known as the green revolution- whereby improved strains of crops etc and improved targeted herbicides allowed greater crop yields.

The green revolution is very interesting, I'm just learning about it now.

Around the time the green revolution was emerging soil scientists like William Albrecht were building up an understanding of soil fertility and how plants actually grow in soil. Albrecht in particular was uncovering the relationship between soil fertility and human health. Business interests meant Albrecht's career was snuffed out - the fertilizer companies had the money so they sponsored the Agricultural University Chairs and put their people in to promote their techniques to sell more product. So they won that battle and as a consequence Soil Science has stagnated since the 1940's and 50's

The green revolution has given us strains of plants that grow well in an abundance of chemical N, P and K, not healthier plants, just ones that yield well in the current industrial farming paradigm. We can't just stop industrial farming overnight, but if we have a better understanding of how nature works we can minimise the use of industrial inputs, and work out alternatives.

Upstream

endainoz wrote: »

Finally some practical thinking here! Another great method is being developed by Jim Cronin, a well regarded organic vegetable grower from East Clare. He is developing a no dig vegetable growing system in conjunction with tillage farmers from around the country. The more you till soil the more minerals are taken out of it. His idea is to vastly improve soil fertility and to plant different vegetables that compliment each other and as you said above, to improve soil fertility so much that it is immune to pests and fungi. All of this is done using a no dig system, which roughly involves stuff that we all have access to. Putting down rotten silage and plastic over it for the winter. Then cutting holes and planting as it is. I might not have explained in as well but I have an article on the method is anybody wants me to email it to them. There won't ever be a chemical sprayed on my place again that's for sure.

I saw Jim Cronin speak at the Biological Farming conference in Tullamore last November. He showed some pictures of the fantastic weed suppression he was getting with compost. It's great to see results like that in Ireland.
Dan Kitteredge was another speaker at the conference who speaks about the plant health, his videos on high bionutrient crop production are worth a look as well.

Please PM the article or post it here if that's allowed.

Thanks,
Upstream

Green farmer

endainoz wrote: »

I have 10 Ha if LIPP as part of GLAS, as most of the lads here know, it can't be topped until July at the earliest. Now there are plenty of rushes in the they I'm mad to cut and try to control but at the same time, the variety of plants in there at the moment with plenty of bees and butterfly's around the place is really great to see. My definition of a healthy looking field has recently changed quite a bit.

Are you worried about a glas inspection and then giving you bother over the amount of rushes ? In the same boat here and hate chemicals, but my land is deteriorating every year since I joined glas. More rushes, nettles and thistles despite topping in July. What happens if the weeds overtake the field ? Are we in trouble with glas ?

yosemitesam1

Green farmer wrote: »

Are you worried about a glas inspection and then giving you bother over the amount of rushes ? In the same boat here and hate chemicals, but my land is deteriorating every year since I joined glas. More rushes, nettles and thistles despite topping in July. What happens if the weeds overtake the field ? Are we in trouble with glas ?

There's plenty of room to keep on top of them while staying within the glass rules. Spot treatment and weed licking is allowed and you can change your grazing management to encourage a thicker sward if necessary

_Brian

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Varorra mites took most native wild swarms/colonies.
I live in Cavan, and bar a few hundred acres of arable up around Mountnugent, I'd safely bet the entire county is pesticide free.
Still no wild colonies, so I don't know how people equate spraying pesticides with colony collaspe.

Same, I’m in the other end of the county and there isn’t a commercially sprayed crop within 10-15 miles of me.
Some grassland spraying but it would be very small, lid guess ess than 5% of land in my area is intensively farmed.

Outside the bee room in Ballyhaise College where my office was (it has three large colonies in the roof space) I’ve only seen one wild colony of honey bees and that was in my mother’s garden last summer.

I do plan to get bees myself but it is a wonder there aren’t more bees in such an extensively farmed county.

I sprayed some meadows last summer for rushes. This year the same meadows are alive with butterflies, insects and solitary mining bees, I actually think insect populations locally are way beyond recent years, the front of my jeep is destroyed with insect splatter.

patsy_mccabe

I hate using herbicides myself. I spot sprayed docks this year for the first time in a small field and only used 90ml of the stuff but would still prefer not to use it. Have a neighbour that just got into goats and the field they are in was once riddled with them but now all well cleared.

Green farmer

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

There's plenty of room to keep on top of them while staying within the glass rules. Spot treatment and weed licking is allowed and you can change your grazing management to encourage a thicker sward if necessary

Ya, I’m going to go down the weed licking route, but I just hate chemicals of any description.

endainoz

Green farmer wrote:

Are you worried about a glas inspection and then giving you bother over the amount of rushes ? In the same boat here and hate chemicals, but my land is deteriorating every year since I joined glas. More rushes, nettles and thistles despite topping in July. What happens if the weeds overtake the field ? Are we in trouble with glas ?

Not as far as I know, And if topping twice a year cant control it to a certain extent, then it's a soil fertility issue. If a place is well drained and still having issues with rushes then surely a lime application would be needed. Can't see why tagasc and co don't encourage it more, lime is great for fertility in soil, I need to put out a few tonne of it myself once I close off grazing around October all going well with weather.

_Brian

endainoz wrote: »

Not as far as I know, And if topping twice a year cant control it to a certain extent, then it's a soil fertility issue. If a place is well drained and still having issues with rushes then surely a lime application would be needed. Can't see why tagasc and co don't encourage it more, lime is great for fertility in soil, I need to put out a few tonne of it myself once I close off grazing around October all going well with weather.

Big problem with many lime rigs now they are beyond small farm fields.

Dinzee Conlee

_Brian wrote: »

Big problem with many lime rigs now they are beyond small farm fields.

I got lime put out a few years ago - big tractor and spreader landed, I'd say took near half the load of lime into it, and away into the field...

The field wasn't wet at the time, it was autumn when it was spread, so it might have been a bit soft.

Lime went out fine, but the tracks from the tractor & spreader were visible for about 12 months afterwards, the grass turned half yellow in them, from compaction I assume...

Waffletraktor

Paityn Tight Ram wrote: »

Isn't the bee population (pollinators) already being darastically reduced due to the overuse of pesticides?
No bees = no yield.

The future of farming may well involve indoor growing technology, specialising in varable LED lighting, mobile apps, vertical farming, intelligent agriculture and so on.
Then add in automation/robotics, there's farms now wherby the cows milk themselves, and get a free massage on the way out, without any human interaction.

Future farming will become like power generation: localised, smarter, and in higher frequency smaller instalations.

`Your about 10 years behind the curve with the above.
The issue is to do the above is millions and only viable for industrial farms who can't take the risk of produce not meeting spec for their buyers. I was in an automated seedling nursery where everything was controlled even co2 % of the air to maximise growth but the cost was millions per acre so only viable on the highest of value low volume herbs and veg which is otherwise grown in spain etc using up their aquafiers.

yosemitesam1

Green farmer wrote: »

Ya, I’m going to go down the weed licking route, but I just hate chemicals of any description.

Most important thing is when you get on top of them to manage it after to promote thick productive growth. Don't get carried away with the topper or overgraze