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Energy infrastructure

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    This is what happens when you follow green washed developer led energy policies



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Repo101


    Nuclear has been on the decline because of Chernobyl. The energy density from solar energy is 1.5 microjoules per cubic meter. That's 20 quadrillion times less than oil. Just because something is growing in popularity, doesn't mean it is better or a good solution. You're also using figures for solar that include subsidies and yet accuse me of being a parody. The cost of solar has decreased because it has received the most taxpayer money, particularly in the US.

    Despite the perception on here, lots of engineers and scientists are starting to wake up to the nonsense around renewables (an oxymoron anyway) and while they do have a place in the future of our energy needs, it will not be sufficient to power our economy into the future as demand is far outgrowing the pace that 'renewables' can keep up.

    I guess there is some amnesia in this thread but people seem to have forgotten that we have built a huge interconnector to France, who will be supplying us with a mix of nuclear/gas. There are concerns about Ireland's ability to supply the market this very winter as Ireland tries to meet its emission targets. Despite the conjecture and people referencing studies with skewed statistics, the reality is that we need to look at nuclear if we want to meet our climate targets and have energy security.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,545 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Just to be sure we're comparing like with like here, is that cubic metre of solar energy a cubic metre of the sun?

    Or is it based on the solar energy falling on a square metre of the earth's surface?

    If the latter, how do you factor in the lifetime of the solar energy (billions on years) versus the lifetime of the oil (gone after you've used it) ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭gjim


    "Nuclear has been on the decline because of Chernobyl."

    There are many many reasons for the decline but the primary one is expense. A MWh produced by a nuclear plant on average cost $150 in 2020, a MWh produced by burning coal cost $100, for combined-cycle natural gas the number is about $55, for wind it's around $40 and for modern solar about $35. You'd know all this if you'd googled LCOE like I suggested in my last response because you'd immediately have come across global and national surveys like those done by Lazard's, Bloomberg, the US Energy Information Agency and many others who measure and monitor this stuff.

    You might also have learned how the economics of electricity generation has been turned on its head in the last 5 years.

    "The energy density from solar energy is 1.5 microjoules per cubic meter."

    Like I said, energy density is about storage not generation. Read the first sentence in wikipedia - "energy density is the amount of energy stored in a given system or region of space per unit volume.". Electricity generation doesn't have an "energy density" - it makes no more sense than to talk about the "energy density" of a vacuum cleaner or a TV set.

    The minute you open your mouth and say something about "energy density of solar" - you just sound silly. It'd be like someone making bold claims about the top speed of blue cars versus red ones.

    If you're actually interested in this subject and not just trolling to waste everyone's time (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here despite strong signals to the contrary), spend a hour when you get a chance to learn something about the metrics everyone uses to compare of electricity generation methods: LCOE, LACE, capacity factors, etc. Then come back and try to make your argument about the superiority of nuclear with real facts and numbers using terminology that makes sense.

    Actually I'm curious about one thing - where did you pick up this nonsense "fact" about the energy density of solar generation?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    People like to talk about subsidies for solar as a bad thing while apparently being unaware of the huge subsidies for fossil and nuclear power.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭gjim


    Yeah. Funny case I came across recently where the Australian government is so married to its “environment policy” of going all-in on natural gas, that they wanted to block a private company from building a grid scale li-ion battery because it would completely undermine a natural gas plant they wanted to build:

    To be fair, I was bickering with bk a few months ago that natural gas was essential for the decarbonization of electricity generation.

    I still believe it is but the rapid advances in grid scale batteries means the current NG generation capacity will probably carry us through.

    The final piece of the puzzle is falling into place - carbon-free, cheap, flexible storage in the form of grid-scale batteries are now not only viable but cheaper - without any subsidies - than NG peaking. This year we’ve reached an inflection point - fossil fuel generation is now a legacy technology.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    It's connected to the existing Gas distrubution network via the Inch Terminal. Well it was until decommissioning began in 2020




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    About $5 Trillion to fossil fuel industry last year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    This is a study on a gannet colony which was completed last year. The highlights are -

    Highlights

    •Offshore windfarms may affect seabird populations through collisions with turbines.

    •We examined seasonal and sex specific collision risk at world's largest gannet colony.

    •Collision risk was highest among females rearing chicks.

    •Predicted collision mortality will slow population growth but not cause it to decline.

    •However, greater immigration from neighbouring colonies could affect their viability.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0141113620305304



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,598 ✭✭✭Nermal


    LOL. Literally the biggest battery in the world, and we'd exhaust it within a half hour.

    And that's today, not the mythic future when all our transportation and heating is electric.

    The cost of guaranteeing supply from renewables is gargantuan. Somehow it's always missing from the calculations, isn't it?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,508 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Nuclear takes hours to ramp up/down. Again this isn't peaking plant waiting to step in when needed. Nuclear generates power 24/7/365 whether you need it or not, use it or lose it, compared to it's fuel costs it's about the most inflexible generator out there.

    Hinkley C had a strike price of £92.50/MWh at 2012 + indexed by CPI for 35 years. ie. it's already at £107/MWh , not including hidden subsidies like the way the UK brought in night rate and storage heaters as a way to subsidise nuclear by increasing baseload demand.

    Let's pretend that nuclear could meet the demand for transport, how are you going to build enough plant in time to meet the 2030 cut-off for fossil fuel cars ? And what will happen to the price of the fuel with increased demand, now that all the surplus weapons are burnt up ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,757 ✭✭✭Apogee


    So if they manage to successfully store hydrogen at the Kinsale gas field, how compatible are the existing stations at Aghada and Poolbeg with using hydrogen in place of methane, or does that require major re-engineering?

    Just note from reading the article, they are looking at three sites in total :

    He added that Kinsale Head is the third Irish offshore location that DCarbonX and ESB are assessing for green hydrogen storage, with further updates to be provided soon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach



    CEP has not stated the size of the project’s energy storage component (measured in GWh), but lithium-ion batteries can provide up to four hours of output at full capacity, so the Kurri Kurri project could be 1.2GW/4.8GWh.

    Might be worth reading the article. Obviously the data hasn't been fully released but if it's a 4.8GWh installation then it's a case that it will produce 1.2GW for 4 hours on full draw down and not 30 minutes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    So there's couple different options:

    1. You can inject a certain percentage of Hydrogen into the Natural gas network, generally on an order of 20% blend of Hydrogen. So that's without spending any money.
    2. There's ongoing work to convert current Natural gas stations to Hydrogen use, see posts further up thread about project in Netherlands involving Mitsubishi Hitachi Power Systems and Vattenfall

    I see 'Gas Networks Ireland' has setup a 'innovation center' to work on ensuring the Gas network is fully up to scratch to be used as a Hydrogen carrier see:


    https://www.gasnetworks.ie/corporate/news/active-news-articles/hydrogen-ready/



    “By gradually replacing natural gas with renewable gases, such as biomethane and hydrogen, and complementing intermittent renewable electricity, we will deliver a net-zero carbon gas network and reduce emissions across a number of key sectors, including those that are traditionally difficult to decarbonize, such as transport, agriculture, industry, heating and power generation.”

     

    Hydrogen is a carbon free gas that can be produced from renewable electricity and is well suited for storage, making it an attractive option to decarbonise energy systems and drive a cleaner energy future for Ireland.  

     

    Mr. Nolan last year became the first Vice President from Ireland of one of Europe’s leading natural gas associations, Marcogaz, and in his presentation on the role of the gas network in storing and transporting hydrogen, Mr. Nolan outlined how other European countries are progressing on their hydrogen journeys and spoke about the European Hydrogen Backbone vision to transport hydrogen across the EU, including Ireland, through almost 40,000km of largely repurposed gas infrastructure.


    The ESB I have see have put up a press release about Kinsale:


    ESB and dCarbonX launch Kinsale Head Hydrogen Storage project

    London and Cork, 12 August 2021

    ESB and dCarbonX have today launched ‘Green Hydrogen @ Kinsale,’ an integrated project to develop large-scale storage for green hydrogen off the coast of County Cork.

    This project – pending licence and planning approvals – could have the potential to store up to three TWh of green hydrogen and hydrogen carriers, the equivalent of approximately 10 per cent of current Irish annual electricity consumption.

    A proprietary evaluation of the depleted gas field reservoir took place earlier this year to identify the potential for large-scale storage of green hydrogen. Since then, a comprehensive work programme has begun, comprising of subsurface analysis, mineralogy, capacity modelling, injection and withdrawal rates, compression, drilling evaluation, well design, retention assurance, monitoring, electrolysis and infrastructure tie-in.

    This is the latest project undertaken by ESB and dCarbonX following their partnership announcement in May, with the companies identifying and developing subsea energy storage offshore opportunities in Ireland. The companies have also proposed the development of a new ‘Green Hydrogen Valley,’ centred around the Poolbeg peninsula in Dublin, which will enable green hydrogen production and storage that can be used to decarbonise heavy transport, shipping, industry and power generation.  

    Padraig O’Hiceadha, ESB Strategy Manager, Generation and Trading, said: “’Green Hydrogen @ Kinsale’ is another milestone in ESB’s commitment to exploring the significant opportunities in hydrogen production and storage. Mirroring developments across Europe and globally, ESB recognises the role hydrogen will play in enabling a low carbon future. Transforming sites – such as the recently decommissioned gas reservoirs at Kinsale Head – and repurposing reservoirs for green hydrogen can deliver large-scale sustainable energy storage for homes and businesses in the future. We look forward to working with dCarbonX on this exciting renewable project.”

    This project follows ESB’s announcement in May that it has plans to invest in a hydrogen facility as part of its redevelopment of the Moneypoint site into a renewable energy hub, ‘Green Atlantic @ Moneypoint.’

    Dr John O’Sullivan, COO of dCarbonX, said: “The Kinsale Head reservoirs hosted safe, secure and reliable offshore natural gas subsurface energy storage for many years, underpinning Ireland’s security of gas supply. As subsurface lead for the original natural gas storage development, the dCarbonX and ESB partnership is optimally positioned to repurpose and develop these reservoirs for green hydrogen storage. Kinsale Head is the third Irish offshore location that we are assessing with ESB for green hydrogen storage and we look forward to providing further updates as appropriate.”

    The County Cork region is ideally placed to be a renewable energy hub, having one of the largest natural harbours in the world, excellent energy and transport connectivity, modern global manufacturing and service industries together with power stations, refinery and gas reception terminal.

    Ends



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭gjim



    "We'd exhaust within a half hour"? You didn't read the article obviously. I wouldn't even have to read the article to know that your claim is silly as none of the suppliers of utility scale li-ion batteries offer such a configuration of power output to storage ratio as it makes absolutely no economic sense. This battery will operate with solar generation and unless you expect the sun to stop shining in Australia, a 4 hour discharge cycle is optimal given the seasonality of the daily demand curve.

    Could you back up the claim "the cost of guaranteeing supply from renewables is gargantuan"? Because we've seen massive growth in the contribution by renewables over the last 10 years and yet the average wholesale price of electricity in Europe has dropped by half. There has been no degradation in supply quality in the period either. So there's something amiss with your theory. Your theory also goes against grid engineers and technical experts who claim that supporting up-to 70% renewable generation can be accommodated on most modern grids without too much bother. Unless you have references to the contrary authored by people who know what they're talking about?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,284 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "could have the potential to store up to three TWh of green hydrogen and hydrogen carriers, the equivalent of approximately 10 per cent of current Irish annual electricity consumption."

    If they can actually make this work and the economics work, then it would be a MASSIVE break-through. It would mean the old "what happens if the wind doesn't blow for two weeks" question goes away. We could have enough wind turbines to produce well more then 100% of our energy needs and have the excess produce and store hydrogen for use during low wind times.

    100% clean energy and for the first time in 100 years we would be completely energy independent again.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Hinkley C had a strike price of £92.50/MWh at 2012 + indexed by CPI for 35 years. ie. it's already at £107/MWh , not including hidden subsidies like the way the UK brought in night rate and storage heaters as a way to subsidise nuclear by increasing baseload demand.

    Are these not largely good things anyway? I would have thought spreading the base load is sensible (albeit not if it means more fossil usage overall).


    I still think nuclear is unfairly treated in the sense that it includes almost the entirety of ancillary and societal costs within its price whereas other sources of energy do not.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,508 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    All suppliers have to contribute to spinning reserve. The amount of spinning reserve is determined by the largest generator which in most cases is a nuclear reactor (1-1.5GW), for other fossil fuel and hydro it's a turbine (300MW). It's another hidden subsidy.

    Spreading the base load is good. But at this stage the base load demand you can rely on is tiny. For Ireland the summer night valley is 1.75GW and 70% of that could be taken from asynchronous sources like renewables and interconnectors. But for grid stability you need high inertia generators in Dublin , Cork etc. and there's also Turlough Hill and other Hydro. There's not a lot of guaranteed year round base load left anymore. Yes in winter the minimum demand is 1GW higher but unlike fossil fuel plant you can't run nuclear seasonally.


    How much will the ESB scheme to allow storage of 10% of our annual demand cost compared to the lifetime cost of a nuke ??



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I don't think Ireland should ever get a nuclear reactor (or at least not in the next 50 years) as given our renewable resources (wind etc) and population it just doesn't really make sense anyway. I don't envisage a future where we are ever truly energy independent so the connector to France etc where nuclear power is part of the question becomes relevant.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Its the retail cost of energy were the monumental costs of indulging the likes of wind/solar on a grid turns up - it is not accident that Germany,Denmark and this country have the highest energy prices in the EU



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Fossil fuels are heavily taxed across the EU - what subs do they get in this country



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,598 ✭✭✭Nermal


    I absolutely do expect the sun to stop shining, periodically, in Australia.

    I have even more confidence that the wind will periodically stop blowing in Ireland, and for a lot longer than a few hours at a time.

    As you say, the first 70%, on average, is easy.

    100%, all the time, is not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭millb


    Dispatch-down of renewable energy refers to the amount of renewable energy that is available but cannot be used by the system. This is because of broad power system limitations, known as curtailments, or local network limitations, known as constraints.

    In 2020, the total wind energy generated in Ireland and Northern Ireland was 13,768 GWh, while 1,909 GWh of wind energy was dispatched down. This represents 12.1% of the total available wind energy in 2020

    In Ireland, the dispatch-down energy from wind resources was 1,448 GWh. This is equivalent to 11.4% of the total available wind energy. In Northern Ireland, the dispatch-down energy from wind resources was 461 GWh. This is equivalent to 14.8% of the total available wind energy. 

    This is the free energy that could make hydrogen.. or pump-storage .. or be exported if there was capacity / more interconnection




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,757 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Electricity generators in Cork and Dublin that have been out of action for several months are expected to be back on line in time for the winter, considerably lessening any risk of blackouts.


    Industry sources expect the plants, at Whitegate in Cork Harbour and Huntstown in north Co Dublin, to restart generating electricity in October and November, in line with schedules already given by their owners. Bord Gáis Energy has said that it expects Whitegate to restart on November 4th. The company confirmed on Monday that it has “notified the market of its current expectation of Whitegate being offline” until that date.


    Energia, one of whose two plants in Huntstown, Co Dublin, has been shut down, has already said that it would be back on line in October.


    The return of both plants will restore about 800 megawatts (MW) of electricity to the Republic’s power network, which sources say should be enough to see the system through next winter.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/winter-blackouts-look-to-be-averted-as-power-plants-restored-1.4648692




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,284 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "As you say, the first 70%, on average, is easy.

    100%, all the time, is not."

    70% and maybe even as much as 85% in the next ten years should be quit doable.

    Yes 100% with todays technology would be very hard, but remember that goal is for 30 years from now, not today or 10 years from now. 30 years is a long time for technology to develop and mature and economies of scale to kick in and drop prices. All it will take is for either battery tech or hydrogen tech to come good * and that last 20 to 30% should be easily achievable.

    * Note when I say "come good" I mean in terms of scale and economics, the technologies already work well, we aren't talking about science fiction here, they just need to drop in price enough to beat gas generated electricity. Grid scale batteries are already beating out gas peakers as of the past year, which is quiet shocking and unimaginable just a few years ago.

    Given the dizzying pace that battery tech is developing at and how quickly prices are falling, I personally wouldn't be making any bets against it over a 30 year period.

    Really the bets being made in markets now isn't if this will happen or not, it is which tech wins out, various different battery techs versus hydrogen (and maybe CCS).



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭gjim



    Well, actually it is. Or at least it has nothing to do with wind or solar deployment. And you've selectively only picked household retail prices because non-household retail prices paint a completely different picture.

    Denmark has the highest household electricity prices but close to the lowest non-household electricity prices because of government policy. They tax the hell out of household electricity consumption (around 65% of the cost) in an attempt to encourage efficiency and as an indirect commercial subsidy. If a new government decided to tax household electricity at the average European rate, then Denmark would have one of the cheapest rates in Europe. So the household consumer price is not determined by cost of production.

    Germany is about bang average for retail electricity prices before tax but again as a matter of policy have very high household consumption taxes while relatively lightly taxing commercial consumers. Again nothing to do with the cost of production.

    Ireland was one of the most expensive before the expansion of wind and, relative to the European average, the household cost is relatively lower now than it was 10 years ago. Still not great but relatively better than it was 15 years ago before the expansion of wind but then everything in Ireland is more expensive than the European average.

    And if you look beyond wind, only Denmark would make it into a top 10 list of European countries by renewables share of electricity generation.

    If you look at Europe as a whole before and after the big expansion of wind - say the last 12 years - which removes local anomalies (like incredibly high Danish taxes), you'll find that average household prices have barely budged in real terms. Non-household prices have dropped considerably and wholesale prices have halved. None of these movement paint a picture of wind or solar increasing the cost of production - the opposite in fact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Your entirely wrong in the above - Irelands energy costs were below the EU averge in 2000 before we adopted energy policies led by wind developers. We now have one of the highest costs and that pattern is repeated across the EU



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Interesting piece here on Germany's expensive grid scale experiment with wind/solar


    The key take away being "Germany’s rising emissions and electricity costs illustrate in dramatic fashion that modern nations cannot rely on weather-dependent energy sources to power their high energy economies"



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