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Energy infrastructure



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,071 ✭✭✭ antoinolachtnai

    Closing oil and coal stations is only tangentially because of CO2 savings. The plants are not part of the binding national targets. They will close when they are no longer economically viable overall because of the high cost of carbon allowances and other costs, in tandem with alternatives being available.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,586 ✭✭✭ Markcheese

    Both are extremely useful because of their store of fuel , and both could be operated minimally- which could help have to have them available to the grid longer -

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,549 ✭✭✭ Apogee

    This is one of the potential projects not captured by the infographics above

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,148 ✭✭✭ DaCor

    Agreement between EU states reached last night will see the following

    • a 2035 phase-out of new fossil fuel car sales, including a law requiring new cars sold in the EU to emit zero CO2 from 2035. That would make it impossible to sell internal-combustion engine cars.
    • a multibillion-euro (59 billion) fund to shield poorer citizens from CO2 costs.
    • a new EU carbon market to impose CO2 costs on polluting fuels used in transport and buildings, though they said it should launch in 2027, a year later than initially planned.
    • reforms to the EU's current carbon market, which forces industry and power plants to pay when they pollute.
    • Countries accepted core elements of the commission’s proposal to reinforce the market to cut emissions 61 per cent by 2030, and extend it to cover shipping. 

    As regards hybrids and alternative fuels, it was stated "hybrids did not deliver sufficient emissions cuts and alternative fuels were prohibitively expensive."

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,905 ✭✭✭ Birdnuts

    And still no sign of the required MPA's from the current government - you would think the current mess with ABP would wise them up a bit on such matters....

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,549 ✭✭✭ Apogee

    Couple of reports in papers over past months with owners of Barryroe complaining that Minister is stalling on a decision to allow them to drill an appraisal well. Presumably the current energy crisis means it remains an attractive proposition, despite the long history of dead ends.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,148 ✭✭✭ DaCor

    Providence are gas, excuse the pun. They've stated in an article in April they expect the decision in July. Its July now, so 🤷‍♂️

    I guess there should be something by the end of the month.

    Will be fun to see the avid supporters of the Barryroe gas react when they see it'll be the mid-2030's before any gas extraction takes place (if at all) and even then there's only about 3/4 years of current consumption in that field. A major source it ain't.

    Providence are primarily interested in the oil and have only a passing interest in the gas field there as there's not much profit in it for them.

    In addition, I don't think much, if any, of the oil will even make it onshore as they are planning to extract directly into storage vessels and not pipe to shore.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭ CrabRevolution

    If they did start piping oil, would that make it the first commercial oil extracted from Irish territory?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,148 ✭✭✭ DaCor

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,898 ✭✭✭ tom1ie

    Very interesting interview on newstalks the hard shoulder just now about our over reliance on British Gas and the likelihood of us being rationed by the brits this winter.

    We get 30% of our gas from corrib the rest is from the UK.

    Ill post a link once it’s up on the site.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,148 ✭✭✭ DaCor

    We'll find out tomorrow if the green label will be applied to nuclear and gas by the EU Parliament

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,586 ✭✭✭ Markcheese

    On a slightly different note , this isn't going to single handedly save the world but could be a way to store low grade heat , from either intermittent production or from seasonal production for district heating , school or hospital uses or just for heating / cooling of large office buildings ..

    I assume it's pretty simple to calculate how much energy could be stored in 100 tons of sand at up to 500 degrees .. would it be possible to efficiently use a heat pump at that sort of temperature range to effectively store low grade heat , ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,586 ✭✭✭ Markcheese

    Give it a half way house status , " it's better than coal but it ain't great "

    Kind of a moot point at the moment really, for the next couple of years anyway ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    Heat pumps cannot operate that way with any efficiency. If you want to heat to that kind of temperature, then use electricity directly. 1kw of electricity generates 1 kw of heat, no matter the existing temperature. The multiplier for a heat pump would be vanishingly small for that temprature difference.

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 88,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight

    70% of our gas comes via a pipeline from Scotland. That gas comes from the North Sea and Norway. Up to ~2% might come from the continental pipelins to England.

    If England turns off the gas to an EU country then other EU countries will turn off the gas to England.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,586 ✭✭✭ Markcheese

    Balls , I thought it depended on the "refrigerant" used in the heat pump , well that won't do much for low grade heat recovery then ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,898 ✭✭✭ tom1ie

    Yeah but it still means we have 70% less gas if Moffat is turned off which equals blackouts and a lack of gas for heating.

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,962 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk

    Please stop with such nonsense scaremongering!

    You have been told this already multiple times, they can't cut off moffat as it also supplies Northern Ireland, which of course is still part of the UK. Also Gas Networks Ireland operates half the pipeline network in Northern Ireland.

    That is also in addition to Marks point that the UK is a net importer of gas and as such is itself reliant on gas from the EU.

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    Quote: For those interested, the maximum efficiency of a conventional heat pump is described using the Carnot efficiency equation:

    COPmax =Tcond (K)Tcond (K) – Tevap (K)

    It can be seen from the format of the equation that the larger the temperature difference is between evaporator and condenser, the lower the maximum COP. If we take an evaporator at 10°C (283K) and a condenser at 60°C (333K) the theoretical maximum COP is 6.7, which is well ahead of anything we are achieving today, so there is clearly scope for the technology to become even more efficient in the future.

    Now, for domestic use, the best result for a heat pump would be to use underfloor pipes with a temperature of about 30 to 40 deg C. Normal domestic heating using radiators has a water temperature above 60 deg. Using heat pumps with radiators loses much of the advantage.

    Heat pumps are normally used for moving heat from a cold (about 5 to zero deg c) to a warm (not hot) distribution system at about 30 to 40 deg c. Outside of this the efficiency is not great, as many uses have found.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,898 ✭✭✭ tom1ie

    This is a public discussion forum I am entitled to post information that is being discussed in the mainstream media. Unfortunately I can’t find the link on newstalk or on the podcast app for it.

    If you don’t like it report to the mods or better yet don’t partake in the discussion.

    If you listen to the interview the point you make about Northern Ireland is addressed.

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,962 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk

    First of all you didn't link to the podcast, but I found it anyway and listened.

    And it was a waste of my time, it didn't include the content you claim it does.

    Literally the first thing they say is that they had a conference with the CRU, you know our energy regulator and the experts in our energy supply and the CRU said there is nothing to panic about, they have it in hand. That they have measures at both European and national level to guarantee security of supply.

    Nor do they touch on Northern Ireland in the podcast!

    Sure the people on the podcast have concerns about our security of supply, so do I.

    Stepping away from the podcast and looking at the wider media on the topic. All of this has blown out of proportion because people realised that the British have a decades old plan that in a worst case Emergency scenario they could cut off the interconnectors to mainland Europe.

    Now, important to note, that is the two interconenctors from Britain to mainland Europe. No where do they claim it is the one to Ireland and in fact the British government has categorically denied that this would include the one to Ireland, of course because it also supplies Northern Ireland, which remains a part of the UK.

    Turning off Moffat like you claim, would do more damage to the UK, as we could retaliate by cutting off our interconnector to Northern Ireland and just use Corrib instead.

    Also the entire idea of Britain cutting off it's interconnectors to mainland Europe is incredibly stupid and an outdated concept from when Britain was a net exporter of gas and had seasonal storage and not now when they are an importer with no storage.

    How the system currently works, is that Britain has lots of import capacity, with pipes and LNG, but no storage, while mainland Europe has lots of storage, but no LNG. In summer, Britain imports lots of gas via LNG and exports it to Europe where it gets stored. In winter, Britain then relies on importing from Europe from those gas storage reserves.

    So logically cutting off the interconnectors with mainland Europe would be shooting themselves in the foot, as it would be cutting themselves off from the winter storage reserves of mainland Europe. It is a pretty stupid plan that needs updating.

    Don't get me wrong, it is pretty stupid that UK and Ireland shutdown our seasonal gas storage reserves and we should open them up, which would largely fix this threat. Unfortunately that won't be ready by this Winter, just like any other possible solution can't be ready by this winter. It will be a tough winter, no one is denying that, there will likely be rationing all across the whole of Europe, but it isn't the end of the world like you are making out.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,898 ✭✭✭ tom1ie

    Ah look BK I don’t want to get into a row with you on this but I must have been listening to something else.

    It was on the hard shoulder on Tuesday evening- I think it was first thing up.

    It specifically mentioned Northern Ireland and engineering that can be done to keep Northern Ireland in gas only.

    The CRU is on record saying we are at odds with EU protocol with regards to our dependence on a non Eu country for 70% of our gas:

    Do you honestly think any uk government will keep Moffat going if England can’t supply 100% of its own network, in the event of shortages this winter or next?

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 88,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight

    Again our gas comes from Scotland and Norway. From the North of the North Sea and North of the North Sea. By point of entry GB only takes 2/3rds of the amount of Norwegian gas that goes to the Netherlands.

    60% of Norway's exports by value last year were oil and gas which is the main reason why they aren't in the EU as they have signed up for pretty much everything else and pay as much per capita to the EU as the UK used to after the rebate.

    The UK is no longer in the European Economic Area (like Norway), nor in the Single Market (like the Swiss) or the Customs Union (like Turkey). They UK is arguing about European Courts, including the non-EU ones.

    Unless the UK can import 25% of it's annual demand as LNG the lights will start to go out if they engage in a trade war with the EU. Also as the UK uses the EU and Norway for gas storage every single LNG shipment would be critical.

    They are still deciding on the next nuclear power station. But that's still a decade away. So will be relying on electricity imports from the EU too.

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,962 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk

    "Do you honestly think any uk government will keep Moffat going if England can’t supply 100% of its own network, in the event of shortages this winter or next?"

    Yes, absolutely, they'll keep it going. For a number of reasons:

    1. The amount of gas sent via Moffat is very little compared to what the UK uses overall. Cutting it off simply wouldn't be worth the political fallout with Norway, the EU, Northern Ireland, the EU and the US.
    2. Ireland has contracts to buy gas directly from Norway, which transits via the UK. Norway won't allow the UK to interfere with those contracts, remember the UK gets 40% of it's gas from Norway.
    3. Cutting off Ireland, means Britain gets cut off from the mainland EU gas storage facilities, which it absolutely relies on in winter.
    4. Cutting Ireland off would spark a trade war with the EU and in that scenario, Norway would back the EU.
    5. President Biden and the US would lose their minds if the UK cut Ireland off. Keep in mind Biden is of Irish descent and the Irish American vote is very large. Britain is reliant on LNG coming from the US. If the UK cut Irelkand off, then it is likely the US would threaten to cut of those LNG supplies to the UK.

    For Britain it really isn't worth the trouble that would come from cutting off Moffat. It would be political, energy and economic suicide.

    Despite Brexit, the UK is fundamentally tied to the European wide energy market and they will need to work with the EU and Norway in dealing with the Russian energy crisis.

    "The CRU is on record saying we are at odds with EU protocol with regards to our dependence on a non Eu country for 70% of our gas:"

    This is true and something that we can discuss.

    First of all, we aren't the only country, Malta and one other that I've forgotten is also in the same boat.

    Second there are simply no quick, easy or cheap solutions to this. Or options are:

    1. Build out our wind/solar and green hydrogen even quicker then planned so we can be truly energy independent and secure.
    2. Build LNG terminals. Though note we would still be reliant on foreign imports and the EU wide market.
    3. Build a gas interconnector to either mainland Europe or Norway.
    4. Develop our own indigenous gas resources, either off shore or freaking.

    A couple of issues with the above.

    1. Any of the above will take many years to put in place, non of them are solutions for this winter.
    2. All will lead to a significant increase in energy prices for Irish consumers. This is because we would need to pay the Billions it would cost to build this new infrastructure.
    3. Any gas infrastructure we build will become a stranded asset once Hydrogen gets up and going.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭ timmyntc

    If the Ukrainians are still allowing Russian gas transit through its country during an invasion by the latter, then the UK surely will not interfere with Ireland's supply of gas from 3rd countries as it transits through.

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 88,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight

    Datacentres have backup batteries with excess capacity which could be used to stablise the grid and help us move from 35% wind power to 80% wind power by 2030 !

    Microsoft said that if grid-interactive UPS systems replace the grid services currently provided by fossil fuel power plants in Ireland, it would cut carbon dioxide emissions by two million metric tons. This is about 20 percent of the total emissions that Ireland's power sector would otherwise be expected to produce in 2025. ®

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    No wind today. 2.6% renewables, 90% thermal (gas and coal) and 6.7% import.

    Is there much solar?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,549 ✭✭✭ Apogee

    Ireland to be treated like UK in event of gas supply issues.

    However a spokesman for the UK National Grid said that Irish consumers would be treated “absolutely equally” to those in the British market in the event of a supply emergency. UK legislation would require, in the event of an emergency, that a national emergency co-ordinator would be appointed who would operate independently without references to the business interests of the National Grid company. Current procedures documented between the UK National Grid and Gas Networks Ireland, which operates the Irish gas grid, stipulate that in the event of any curtailment, supplies to Britain’s distribution network and the Moffat Interconnector in Scotland – which supplies the Republic, Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man – would be curtailed equally.

    Hydrogen facility plans submitted for Mayo

    A green hydrogen facility that could represent an investment in the region of €150m is a step closer to being built in Co Mayo. Constant Energy Limited, a Limerick-based company seeking to develop a portfolio of renewable energy and gas-fired technology assets, submitted its plans for the green hydrogen production plant to Mayo County Council late last month. [...] According to documents submitted with the application, the main development site occupies an area of 5.55 hectares. The site has a history of planning consents for energy-related projects, with surrounding lands occupied by the Oweninny Wind Farm phases one and two. The planning documents estimate construction of the proposed hydrogen facility could begin in 2024, with it then expected to be fully operational in 2026. The total number of construction workers on-site is expected to peak at around 50 people.

    You can see the submitted drawings to MayoCoCo here, including site layout

    Production input and output:


    Post edited by Apogee on