Childminder fees

Jane7939

2

hairyprincess

Are you working ‘under the table’? If so, I don’t think you can expect to have the same employment entitlements as someone who is working above board.

Plumbthedepths

Jane7939 wrote:

Its cash in hand but still morrally I feel in being taken for granted I take goid care of the kids

No offense but you and your employer are not paying tax, prsi so clearly morals are absent.
I suggest you advise your employer of both your responsibilities and seek a proper legal situation or seek alternative employment. Btw if revenue or social welfare become aware you both could be facing substantial bills. I hope you are not in receipt of a SW payment.

bertsmom

If it's all cash in hand I'm afraid there's not much you can do as you are complicit in what is essentially tax fraud.
Yes the amount of work does seem excessive for what you are paid but if your not contributing to revenue it's hard to see how you are being wronged in fairness.
Would you not try and get it all above board and pay taxes and then charge a proper amount, maby get a first aid certificate etc and I'm sure many parents would value that skill and be happy to pay accordingly.

salmocab

You need to move they are paying you well below your worth to them. The cash in hand means you really have no one to complain to, find something else that pays your worth and then just don’t turn up for them again.

1874

From the perspective of someone who pays a professional (official) childminding service, I estimate I'm paying 4.5/hr but thats as they do it in bulk, otherwise I suspect it would be more.
When I looked for off the books rates, they were about €8-10/hr minding one child, thats said, adding an extra child didnt double it. Having said that you are minding 3 children, albeit off the books. Maybe look up mumsnet or childminding online and see what the rates are per 1/2/3 children in your locality/region.



Officially you are probably entitled to more, although work could dry up if you approach it by that route and there may be other circumstances that are not mentioned here, I dont know.
I wouldnt expect pay for Public Holidays unless you worked them though, and then something slightly more than usual or a negotiated amount if you were available/needed/wanted the money.

The off the books rate will always be less. Still I would consider €4.50 reasonable per child for 2 children are being minded in one scenario, maybe less per/hr for the third (maybe not) so maybe 10-12/hr for your scenario, it would be advisable to have some kind of qualification and at least child CPR. Any that can bump up your ability to request more.

All that said, I think you are working for too little. I can see how it is a pressure for a family to pay out, I was/am on that side of the fence, but you need to get a fair return.
If you were minding one child I think 5/hr would be ok, but 3, Id think a minimum of 10, maybe 12/hr.


You wont know unless you bring it up, are the parents well enough off they could afford it or maybe struggling? ie wont have the money to pay out might determine how much you can push for, if anything.


I suggest going online and looking into what unofficial rates are, then line up some work for your other days with a view to finding a new family to mind for, then bring it up with the people you're minding, say you feel you are getting too little, and be prepared to leave if they dont give you want you set as your bottom line. Be prepared to even have them annoyed and tell yuo they dont want to have you mind their children, but they will probably be stuck, so maybe they will pay out, or drop you like a stone a few weeks later if they sort something else out.

Id realise on your part, not paying tax means you wont earn what an official minding person/business will or be able to compete with a bulk rate of an official business. If you exceed what they may pay for a formal minders to do the work, they may switch.

Jane7939

What i mean is cash in hand but it is declared i thought u ment was i registered yes i pay a small amout of tax on the wages but i get paid in cash

Stoner

hairyprincess wrote:

Are you working ‘under the table’? If so, I don’t think you can expect to have the same employment entitlements as someone who is working above board.

I've a child minder, the minding takes place in their house and the tax obligation sits with the childminder.

If as above the minding takes place in the parents house then they are an employee and the tax arrangements sit with the parents, it becomes very expensive. Not treating the person working in your home is a cost saving for the parents not the employee, no stamp etc.

I get paid on bank holidays, I get paid for holidays. We pay our child minder for both. Anyone who doesn't is being miserable in my opinion.

With the risk of sounding preachy IMO you should treat people like you would like to be treated, these people take care of your children.

Jane7939

No the parents are well off both have very goid jobs

1874

Stoner wrote: »

I've a child minder, the minding takes place in their house and the tax obligation sits with the childminder.

If as above the minding takes place in the parents house then they are an employee and the tax arrangements sit with the parents, it becomes very expensive. Not treating the person working in your home is a cost saving for the parents not the employee, no stamp etc.

I get paid on bank holidays, I get paid for holidays. We pay our child minder for both. Anyone who doesn't is being miserable in my opinion.

With the risk of sounding preachy IMO you should treat people like you would like to be treated, these people take care of your children.

In my view, generally I agree, that said, they do seem to be part time, so that might mean they would have less moral entitlement to get paid for a bank holiday (and I say this as one of the few, if only person to offer a supportive view before your own). I worked in a formal setting in a large organisation, and I only got paid for when I was present, so if sick, no pay, if I wasnt in on a public holiday as a work day, I got nothing, its crappy but thats how it was, and Id say in less formalised setting its more likely to not get paid for holidays or public holidays, unless you work the day and its more like zero hr.
That said, I think the OP is getting bilked, ie too low a rate for her work.
I forgot to ask if the OP does any of the school runs in their own car or pays for any food (should not), for insurance purposes and cost.


Id suggest if someone was a fulltime childminder it would be fair to pay for holidays and have Public holidays off or an extra rate to work them.

hairyprincess

Jane7939 wrote: »

What i mean is cash in hand but it is declared i thought u ment was i registered yes i pay a small amout of tax on the wages but i get paid in cash

Do you get a payslip?

Jane7939

hairyprincess wrote: »

Do you get a payslip?

Yes

bertsmom

What did both parties agree to before commencement of employment? Have you a contract?
Have you childcare qualifications?
All these are relevant.

Jane7939

I use my own car yes its not a far distance....But I do clean all bedrooms and kitchen a clothes washing also make dinner

D3V!L

Jane7939 wrote: »

Yes

are you self employed or working for them ? Who's paying your tax and prsi ?

hairyprincess

Jane7939 wrote: »

Yes

How long have you been employed by them? Have you checked your Revenue account to see if you are actually paying the tax? Have you received a P60 from Revenue?

Jane7939

bertsmom wrote: »

What did both parties agree to before commencement of employment? Have you a contract?
Have you childcare qualifications?
All these are relevant.

I have a background in healthcare so yes I'd be covered in minding kids I can't remember the detail at the start I only do this as a sideline thing

Squatter

Jane7939 wrote: »

Yes

If you're getting a payslip then presumably you're classed as an employee and if so you should have tax credits worth €16,500 a year to you.

As an employee, you are also entitled to paid annual leave plus paid bank holidays.

At €50 a day for say 150 days a year you're not earning enough to be paying tax or USC or PRSI.

1874

Unless they are earning elsewhere too, Id be suprised if they are paying any or much tax at all, 150 * 52 weeks is 7800, minus the tax credit and prsi allowance that comes to very little left to tax and I below a certain amount no USI either.

Jane7939

Squatter wrote: »

If you're getting a payslip then presumably you're classed as an employee so you should have a tax credit worth €16,500 a year.

You are also entitled to paid annual leave plus paid bank holidays.

At €50 a day for say 250 days a year you're not earning enough to be paying tax, although you may be liable to pay a tiny amount of USC and PRSI.

I pay a very small amount prsi as the income is so low

Varta

Jane7939 wrote: »

Hi I'm currently minding 3children flim their home I do 10 hours in the house 3 days a week include kids breakfast and school drop offs and collections I do dinners and cleaning and get 50 euro a day I feel this is to little?also one of my contract days are Mondays but because bank holidays fall on a Monday the parents are not paying me for the Monday so means I loose a days pay every time there's a bank holiday I feel I should be getting paid for bank holiday...am I over reacting?

You are being treated little better than a slave. Find another job and report these people. In the meantime DO NOT use your own car, you are putting yourself at risk. Let them provide transport.

1874

Squatter wrote: »

If you're getting a payslip then presumably you're classed as an employee and if so you should have tax credits worth €16,500 a year to you.

As an employee, you are also entitled to paid annual leave plus paid bank holidays.

At €50 a day for say 250 days a year you're not earning enough to be paying tax, although you may be liable to pay a tiny amount of USC and PRSI.

Tax and PRSI credits amount to 3300, so no tax up until 16,500 (at 20%) but 0.5% USC on less than 12k, I thought it was exempt below lower earnings.

Stating it as 16500 tax credits is misleading and incorrect, they can earn up to 16500 without paying tax at 20%
PRSI I think is exempt or reduced below certain levels so the OP must be paying tax/PRSI elsewhere.
Id suggest a total deduction all in of tax and PRSI up to 20% means little or nothing to pay on earnings up to 16500, buts its not technically a tax credit, the credit is 20% of that, ie 1650 for tax and 1650 for PRSI (or 3300 total), 5 times 20% is 100% means 5 times 3300 is 16500.

AvonEnniskerry

Technically working in children's own home subjects you to at least minimum wage. More if you've more than one child and have the appropriate training or qualifications. However this is through the books and the parent becomes your employer. It actually works out quite dear for the parent unfortunately and means it's not really a viable option for many.

You do seem to be being taken advantage of. As you are being paid actually below the rate that I'd accept for 3 children in my own home at €5 an hour.

Squatter

Jane7939 wrote: »

I pay a very small amount prsi as the income is so low

That's good as it means that you are in an employee situation - hence your employer is legally obliged to pay you for holidays and bank holidays.

Jane7939

1874 wrote: »

Tax and PRSI credits amount to 3300, so no tax up until 16,500 (at 20%) but 0.5% USC on less than 12k, I thought it was exempt below lower earnings.

Im not great on tax issues I know from the 150 I get less then 25 euro of that is taken for I presume prsi

o1s1n

The minimum wage in Ireland is 9.80 an hour. you're getting paid 5.00.

I think that tells you ever you need to know.

hairyprincess

Have you checked your Revenue account? Have you received a P60?

Jane7939

o1s1n wrote: »

The minimum wage in Ireland is 9.80 an hour. you're getting paid 5.00.

I think that tells you ever you need to know.

Yes it does it's only recently I've sat and thought of how little I get and looked more into it all

Pawwed Rig

Jane7939 wrote: »

I pay a very small amount prsi as the income is so low

You shouldn't be paying any prsi. There is something you are not telling us that is relevant here. For €150 for 30 hours work I would be shocked if the couple are registered as employers.
Do you live with them by any chance?
Are you legally allowed work in Ireland?
What other income do you have?
Are you claiming social welfare benefits?

Why not leave and work elsewhere? It would be simple to mind kids in your own home for example and then you charge what you like.

Derek Zoolander

Squatter wrote: »

That's good as it means that you are in an employee situation - hence your employer is legally obliged to pay you for holidays and bank holidays.

not if they are on a part time basis and not scheduled to work on bank holidays.
They are obliged to pay you for holidays based on hours accrued.

Also you should be getting around 12/13 euro per hour for that type of work... so you're being significantly underpaid..

There is a shortage of good childminders so I would recommend leaving and you should be able to get a better job relatively quickly or alternatively once you hand in your notice they may be willing to double your salary...

Plumbthedepths

Jane7939 wrote:

Im not great on tax issues I know from the 150 I get less then 25 euro of that is taken for I presume prsi

There is something more to your story that you have omitted. Btw if you are using your car for work purposes ie picking up the children unless you have told your insurance company you have another potential serious issue if an accident occurs.

Squatter

1874 wrote: »

Tax and PRSI credits amount to 3300, so no tax up until 16,500 (at 20%) but 0.5% USC on less than 12k, I thought it was exempt below lower earnings.

Stating it as 16500 tax credits is misleading and incorrect, they can earn up to 16500 without paying tax at 20%

PRSI I think is exempt or reduced below certain levels so the OP must be paying tax/PRSI elsewhere.

Id suggest a total deduction all in of tax and PRSI up to 20% means little or nothing to pay on earnings up to 16500, buts its not technically a tax credit, the credit is 20% of that, ie 1650 for tax and 1650 for PRSI (or 3300 total), 5 times 20% is 100% means 5 times 3300 is 16500.

It was shorthand to assist the OP; had I realised that I'd be encountering a pedant with too much time on his hands, then I'd have given chapter and verse!

As for my earlier comment on PRSI and USC - having re-read her OP and seen that she's working only 3 days a week, I was incorrect to suggest that she'd be paying either USC or PRSI, although her employer should be paying PRSI for her. I have revised my post accordingly!

Squatter

Derek Zoolander wrote: »

..... not if they are on a part time basis and not scheduled to work on bank holidays.

Incorrect!

For the record:-

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/public_holidays_in_ireland.html


Entitlement to public holidays is set out in the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997. Most employees are entitled to paid leave on public holidays. One exception is part-time employees who have not worked for their employer at least 40 hours in total in the 5 weeks before the public holiday. (the OP would have worked for 150 hours in the previous 5 weeks)

If you qualify for public holiday benefit you are entitled to one of the following:

A paid day off on the public holiday
An additional day of annual leave
An additional day's pay
A paid day off within a month of the public holiday

salmocab

OP do you do any other work that could be complicating the tax issue?

1874

Its possible the OP is in a vulnerable situation or just is in low paid work or needs the extra cash (no offenc intended) and doesnt want to be turned on by other posters for not paying a pittance of tax which they might owe, people who do additional side work usually do it to try get some extra money together, not formalise it.
In reality, people dont do this in their own homes formally if they know what it entails as they'd then be obliged to pay PRSI for the person, I think the change that made that so ruined it for both parties involved and pushed the kind of work, somewhat underground, so what they do instead is keep it informal and give the person a reasonable amount that works for both parties and leave the taxmans grubby hands out of it.
Officially the parents should be paying prsi and giving holidays, but its better for the person to get at least a reasonable amount and say nothing, I dont think thats the case here.
As the Op then said they do cleaning and drop offs in their own car, I suggest an outright minimum of 10-12/hr which would be at least 300 per week rather than 100. Will the people pay it? or will the work stop and they bilk someone else in need of the money?
Or maybe 8/hr for cleaning, 12 for childminding and some petrol costs, averaging at 10 per hour plus petrol or 12/hour whatever is negotiated and mileage/risk dependant.

1874

Squatter wrote: »

It was shorthand to assist the OP; had I realised that I'd be encountering a pedant with too much time on his hands, then I'd have given chapter and verse!

As for my earlier comment on PRSI and USC - having re-read her OP and seen that she's working only 3 days a week, I was incorrect to suggest that she'd be paying either USC or PRSI, although her employer should be paying PRSI for her. I have revised my post accordingly!

thank you, Im not being critical, I wondered how you arrived at the figure until I checked and realised you did the sum calculation all in one go, but just wanted to show how you arrived at that figure in case the person didnt know, so I just wrote it out so theyd realise no tax on earnings up to 16500.
I can be pedantic, but Im not being so in this case,
I also have a moral compass (which has not always served me well) and Im trying to offer advice too.

Jane7939

What made me take notice was the man who cleans the window got 40 euro for 2 hours work I get 10 euro more for 10 hours there put it all into perspective

Plumbthedepths

Jane7939 wrote:

What made me take notice was the man who cleans the window got 40 euro for 2 hours work I get 10 euro more for 10 hours there put it all into perspective

The guy who cleans the windows is self employed, pays his own tax. Runs a vehicle for his business and has insurance and several other costs associated with said business. You earning 5 euro an hour is your own responsibility, I suggest you get a mainstream job or have your employer regularise your employment properly which based on what you have said seems to be a black economy job.

bertsmom

I could be my maths I am absolutely terrible at figures but something's just not adding up.
I could be wrong but I feel like you are leaving out important information that affects the answers.
Op with the information you are providing only you know if you are being underpaid.
Perhaps if all is as above board as you claim bring your last few payslips into citizen's advice centre or social welfare office and ask if they might have a look at the facts and figures for you...

salmocab

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The guy who cleans the windows is self employed, pays his own tax. Runs a vehicle for his business and has insurance and several other costs associated with said business. You earning 5 euro an hour is your own responsibility, I suggest you get a mainstream job or have your employer regularise your employment properly which based on what you have said seems to be a black economy job.

Think you may need to read the thread properly she is paid legitimate.

1874

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The guy who cleans the windows is self employed, pays his own tax. Runs a vehicle for his business and has insurance and several other costs associated with said business. You earning 5 euro an hour is your own responsibility, I suggest you get a mainstream job or have your employer regularise your employment properly which based on what you have said seems to be a black economy job.

No offence but that is some rip off for cleaning windows, regularised or not
and the OP regularised or not is also getting ripped, sounds like the parents dont place much value on their children if they pay 20/hr for window cleaning but 5/hr for childminding.

Plumbthedepths

salmocab wrote:

Think you may need to read the thread properly she is paid legitimate.

The absence of a payslip for one, which is a legal requirement begs to differ. Less than minimum wage is another. No payment for using her own vehicle for work... I think I have demonstrated how the job appears to be anything but legit.

meeeeh

You are being underpaid. There are couples who were brought to labour court by au pairs and foreced to pay the difference. This is an example.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/as-employment-rights-change-has-the-au-pair-had-her-day-1.2951047%3fmode=amp

That being said I don't believe you one bit that you are declaring your earnings. Only you know how much of the social welfare you are receiving and if everything is above board.

1874

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The absence of a payslip for one, which is a legal requirement begs to differ. Less than minimum wage is another. No payment for using her own vehicle for work... I think I have demonstrated how the job appears to be anything but legit.

You demonstrated you didnt read the thread, they said earlier they get a payslip, Im wondering who is making it up (no puns intended originally until I read what I said) I mean adding it all up.

salmocab

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The absence of a payslip for one, which is a legal requirement begs to differ. Less than minimum wage is another. No payment for using her own vehicle for work... I think I have demonstrated how the job appears to be anything but legit.

She does get a payslip so I think I have demonstrated the job is legit.

1874

meeeeh wrote: »

You are being underpaid. There are couples who were brought to labour court by au pairs and foreced to pay the difference. This is an example.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/as-employment-rights-change-has-the-au-pair-had-her-day-1.2951047%3fmode=amp

That being said I don't believe you one bit that you are declaring your earnings. Only you know how much of the social welfare you are receiving and if everything is above board.

ANd that bollixed up legitimate au pairing, I suppose its part well meaning but hamfisted state intervention.
Au Pair is completely different and should always have been sperate from paid employment, they should have regularised what falls under Au Pair and what is employment.
I qualify that by openly admitting I never had an Au Pair, Id did have someone mind my child before that came in, but ultimately and not long after availed of an official business/service that provides child minding.

Jane7939

Jane7939 wrote: »

Hi I'm currently minding 3children flim their home I do 10 hours in the house 3 days a week include kids breakfast and school drop offs and collections I do dinners and cleaning and get 50 euro a day I feel this is to little?also one of my contract days are Mondays but because bank holidays fall on a Monday the parents are not paying me for the Monday so means I loose a days pay every time there's a bank holiday I feel I should be getting paid for bank holiday...am I over reacting?

Yes, you are being exploited. I am sorry to have to tell you that. I'm paying €10 per hour every day for a childminder to mind one of my children. No cleaning at all, just childminding. She cannot drive either. It's also costing an arm and a leg for all these bank holidays - €100 per day when they're not even here (3 of them in the past month alone). When they started they said €10 was low and they would expect an increase. It's all cash in hand (as it would be even more expensive for me if it weren't - i.e. you're also doing them a favour by accepting cash in hand). And there is no state ECCE-type subsidy if one hires a childminder. To be honest, I feel exploited given that I must earn @ €18 for each €10 I pay but I comfort myself that it will only be for a couple more years.

By law, as somebody points out above, you are entitled to be paid for a bank holiday. You could get a far higher salary elsewhere - of that I am certain as it took a substantial amount of time before I could find somebody. If you are Irish and have solid references many parents would pay extra rather than have somebody with fewer roots to our society looking after their child.

Jane7939

1874 wrote: »

ANd that bollixed up legitimate au pairing, I suppose its part well meaning but hamfisted state intervention.
Au Pair is completely different and should always have been sperate from paid employment, they should have regularised what falls under Au Pair and what is employment.
I qualify that by openly admitting I never had an Au Pair, Id did have someone mind my child before that came in, but ultimately and not long after availed of an official business/service that provides child minding.

Omg why is my question Turing into debate on tax issues I do not get any other income only the 150 i get for childminding and would appreciate just a basic opinion to my question I don't nerd to know the law

Jane7939

1874 wrote: »

No offence but that is some rip off for cleaning windows, regularised or not
and the OP regularised or not is also getting ripped, sounds like the parents dont place much value on their children if they pay 20/hr for window cleaning but 5/hr for childminding.

The house is huge and they are very particular about work done at their home

Jane7939

Jane7939 wrote: »

What made me take notice was the man who cleans the window got 40 euro for 2 hours work I get 10 euro more for 10 hours there put it all into perspective

I'm beginning to develop a begrudging respect for these people - I paid €90 for my windows to be cleaned a month ago and €120 before that. Until now I thought I was getting a deal.

Seriously, never mind people giving you a hard time here. You are being seriously exploited and I would even consult FLAC (for free) about your legal rights here. Give them a ring this minute. I have the Mindme app and I can tell you it's not uncommon at all to see childminders seeking €15 or €20 per hour. Check the website yourself now. It's unusual to see an Irish person looking for "just" €10 per hour. There is huge demand for a trustworthy childminder with solid references. I'm a bit worried for you that you seem to be oblivious to your value in the market.

1874

Jane7939 wrote: »

Omg why is my question Turing into debate on tax issues I do not get any other income only the 150 i get for childminding and would appreciate just a basic opinion to my question I don't nerd to know the law

For a start, Im one of the posters here giving constructive advice and trying to help,
next, it is essentially a tax issue among others, there isnt just a basic answer to this, in my opinion, and knowing the law is important, if even only the basics.