MG ZS BEV, 44kWh

unkel

KCross wrote: »

While I agree with your sentiment, would that car be a success though? It would likely have brutal range relative to whats on the market today.

It would be a tremendous success. Range is unimportant as the buyers of that car would generally do low mileage and in a year or two public charging would be getting on a par with what it is like today in the likes of the Netherlands

Imagine all those people who bought supermini diesel cars for a few k km per year in cities? I'd say gocar would replace half their fleet with cheap electric cars if they could and sharing is a huge growth market.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

It would be a tremendous success. Range is unimportant as the buyers of that car would generally do low mileage and in a year or two public charging would be getting on a par with what it is like today in the likes of the Netherlands

Imagine all those people who bought supermini diesel cars for a few k km per year in cities? I'd say gocar would replace half their fleet with cheap electric cars if they could and sharing is a huge growth market.

Im not disagreeing that it would work for people who just nip around the city but I dont think that on its own would be enough to make it a success.

I dont know why you say range is unimportant. Ask anyone about EV's and its downsides and you'll hear about range! Its hugely important. Just because you and me know that you dont need 500km EV daily range doesnt mean the general public will buy into it. They dont and wont.

A 25kWh CUV would be terrible... probably worse than the L24, imo.


In any case, this MG has 44kWh and is relatively cheap so it shows that cheap EV's are possible with decent range. We need more of that. Now imagine if you took 20kWh off that MG what you'd be left with... I dont think it'd sell in large numbers.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

I dont know why you say range is unimportant. Ask anyone about EV's and its downsides and you'll hear about range! Its hugely important.

It's unimportant if you can charge up your car almost anywhere in 10 minutes. Just like a petrol car today. Nobody knows how many litres go in the tank and people don't care. As soon as the light comes on you stop at the nearest petrol station, you fill up and a few minutes later you're back on the road

It is hugely important if you own an EV in Ireland today, particularly one that can only "fast" charge on CHAdeMO with our brutal and congested public charging network

KCross

unkel wrote: »

It's unimportant if you can charge up your car almost anywhere in 10 minutes. Just like a petrol car today.

True. However, a current tech 24kWh battery wont be able to do that.... probably ever.

You'd need something like a 24kWh supercapacitor to be able to do that... certainly new tech anyway, not the current tech and new tech is years away and will be more expensive initially.

I just dont think a 24kWh Sandero is the way forward. Too many compromises with that.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

True. However, a current tech 24kWh battery wont be able to do that.... probably ever.

My 28kWh Ioniq that came out in 2016 gives a warning when battery is down to 13%. Let's say you are down to 10% by the time you hit a fast charger. The car can then charge to 50% on existing chargers in Ireland today (Ionity) in 10 minutes. QED. Already possible. Yesteryear's technology.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

My 28kWh Ioniq that came out in 2016 gives a warning when battery is down to 13%. Let's say you are down to 10% by the time you hit a fast charger. The car can then charge to 50% on existing chargers in Ireland today (Ionity) in 10 minutes. QED. Already possible.

You're a master of figure manipulation! You said "charge the car up in 10mins". Not add 37%!!


QED...Fail!


In any case I dont think any manufacturers are following your line of thought. The march is towards better range (i.e. higher capacity) not short range cheap.

unkel

50% will be more than enough to bring the average buyer of a €15k EV to their destination. If not they can charge again or charge a bit longer in the first time. My point was that a few minutes charge (without having to wait) is more than enough to keep going. I'd say most people buying a cheap petrol Dacia Sandero today, do not fill it up to the top everytime. More likely they put a tenner in or maybe twenty quid.

KCross wrote: »

In any case I dont think any manufacturers are following your line of thought. The march is towards better range (i.e. higher capacity) not short range cheap.

I'm not convinced that is what is going to happen at all. If the current emissions regime is further tightened after 2021 / 2022 and global battery production is not where it needs to be, you will find manufacturers preferring to sell 2 * 25kWh EVs rather than 1 * 50kWh EV. The two smaller capacity EVs offset twice as much CO2 as the single larger capacity EV. And we know their strategies are already heavily influenced by these emissions figures and offsets as we have discussed several times in the past few weeks.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

50% will be more than enough to bring the average buyer of a €15k EV to their destination. If not they can charge again or charge a bit longer in the first time. My point was that a few minutes charge (without having to wait) is more than enough to keep going. I'd say most people buying a cheap petrol Dacia Sandero today, do not fill it up to the top everytime. More likely they put a tenner in or maybe twenty quid.

I think you are underestimating the needs of an average buyer.

Joe public will not swap a €10k petrol Sandero that can do hundreds of km's per fill with an EV equivalent that will have brutal range when 100% charged not to mind 50% charged. Your example is laughable if you ask me.

I'm amazed you think thats the future tbh. We need range to improve big time otherwise the general public wont buy in to it.

unkel wrote: »

I'm not convinced that is what is going to happen at all. If the current emissions regime is further tightened after 2021 / 2022 and global battery production is not where it needs to be, you will find manufacturers preferring to sell 2 * 25kWh EVs rather than 1 * 50kWh EV. The two smaller capacity EVs offset twice as much CO2 as the single larger capacity EV. And we know their strategies are already heavily influenced by these emissions figures and offsets as we have discussed several times in the past few weeks.

Somewhat true except its PHEV's they will produce not BEV's further improving their emissions figures.
Two 12kWh Sandero PHEV's would make more sense than one 25kWh BEV version that is hobbled from the start.

NOTE: PHEV's gets the exact same credit as a BEV in the emissions regulations.

marcos_94

KCross wrote: »

How we get those down to €20k is the big issue and I've no answers for that. Its possible it will "never" happen and people have to start looking at TCO rather than RRP and tax new ICE cars out of it to bridge the gap.

As the market for EVs sees more manufacturers get involved, competition will help drive costs down. At the moment, the biggest cost associated with an EV is the battery packs, which are coming down in price at an astounding rate (roughly 20% decrease in cost per annum over the last 8 years):
https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-scenes-take-lithium-ion-battery-prices/

KCross

marcos_94 wrote: »

As the market for EVs sees more manufacturers get involved, competition will help drive costs down. At the moment, the biggest cost associated with an EV is the battery packs, which are coming down in price at an astounding rate (roughly 20% decrease in cost per annum over the last 8 years):
https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-scenes-take-lithium-ion-battery-prices/

Indeed. However, all of the cost reductions have been eaten up by producing higher capacity batteries rather than sticking with small batteries at less cost.

e.g. a 2011 Leaf had a 24kWh battery and cost about €26k for mid range model.
A 2019 Leaf has a 40kWh battery and is much the same cost, slightly higher actually.

So, yes, the battery costs/prices have come down but the price of the cars hasnt, but range has significantly improved... which we needed.

Hopefully further cost improvements will be secured and instead of bigger batteries they will reduce price.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

My 28kWh Ioniq that came out in 2016 gives a warning when battery is down to 13%. Let's say you are down to 10% by the time you hit a fast charger. The car can then charge to 50% on existing chargers in Ireland today (Ionity) in 10 minutes. QED. Already possible. Yesteryear's technology.

IN fairness the Ioniq was and is class leading in terms of C rates

unkel

Cost of the battery is nowhere near as much of an issue as the globally very limited battery production that will be difficult to scale up to making tens of millions of EVs per year in a few years time. I'd say only the Chinese will be able to handle this.

KCross wrote: »

NOTE: PHEV's gets the exact same credit as a BEV in the emissions regulations.

Doesn't a BEV count double?

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Doesn't a BEV count double?

It does, but so does a PHEV.... basically anything that is <50gCO2 gets double credit.

The regulations dont distinguish between BEV and PHEV... they should but they dont.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Kate reviews it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4xOMHblj8A

Summary: a very decent, great value, very practical family EV. Top of the range model just GBP23k. Charging disappointingly only at 55kW on Ionity - it is supposed to be 85kW. Bigger boot than eNiro. 0-60 2s quicker than the official figure of 8.5s, so bit of a pocket rocket

James and Kate are selling their Tesla Model S and they are replacing it with the MG!

DrPhilG wrote: »

Is this not the second or third car they've made that claim on?

ELM327 wrote: »

Yeah, it's their "go to" line on their videos

Well, they seem to have put their money where their mouth is.... they've bought it and took delivery yesterday

I cant imagine there are too many Model S owners swapping to this MG. They seem chuffed with it though.

The EVM channel guy gave it a positive review too. I think that introductory price is the big draw for everyone... its a steal at that money.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

I cant imagine there are too many Model S owners swapping to this MG. They seem chuffed with it though.

Having your first child changes a lot of peoples priorities. I've seen people around me switching from nice saloons to 7 seat MPV / big SUV as soon as their first or second child arrived. To me that always felt way over the top. I just kept getting large saloons even with 3 kids

It ain't cheap having kids though, perhaps the Tesla was a bit of a frivolous purchase (I suspect it is for many owners), it costs too much and it was now time to let it go. They were overly optimistic about their asking price too imho and they've had it for sale for several months now. Used Model S are taking a big hit in value now too with the arrival of the Model 3 to UK shores. Maybe a bit of a case of needs must here.

Your man didn't come over as genuine to me though that he was more excited getting this car than he was back when he got the Tesla. Really?

Old diesel

Well the car James and Kate sold was actually their Zoe. They tweeted about the sale during the week.

So unless they've said different in video - are they perhaps keeping Tesla????.

I remember they got Zoe because they needed a 2nd car.

Dont think they ever actually did a video on their Zoe - it was only on twitter I saw them tweet about it at different times.

Switching from a Model S to this MG isn't an issue if you don't in fact say good bye to Model S but sell Zoe instead.

listermint

KCross wrote: »

I think you are underestimating the needs of an average buyer.

Joe public will not swap a €10k petrol Sandero that can do hundreds of km's per fill with an EV equivalent that will have brutal range when 100% charged not to mind 50% charged. Your example is laughable if you ask me.

I'm amazed you think thats the future tbh. We need range to improve big time otherwise the general public wont buy in to it.




Somewhat true except its PHEV's they will produce not BEV's further improving their emissions figures.
Two 12kWh Sandero PHEV's would make more sense than one 25kWh BEV version that is hobbled from the start.

NOTE: PHEV's gets the exact same credit as a BEV in the emissions regulations.

I think your underestimating the Average Irish buyer. And also putting in false equivalence to boot


The Sandero is not the most ubiquitous vehicle on Irish roads so hailing 10 k as that majority spend is....


You failed to mention that the change in tax bands boosted diesels sails in Ireland seismically. People were willing to buy across the board more expensive diesel models to save a couple of hundred on yearly tax....


Can you imagine when more ev choices comes people changing habits to fill a tank for a couple of euro.

KCross

listermint wrote: »

I think your underestimating the Average Irish buyer. And also putting in false equivalence to boot


The Sandero is not the most ubiquitous vehicle on Irish roads so hailing 10 k as that majority spend is....

Im not sure where you're coming from with that. The Sandero example was unkels not mine. He wanted to see a 15k Sandero EV. Im saying that wouldnt take off.

listermint wrote: »

You failed to mention that the change in tax bands boosted diesels sails in Ireland seismically. People were willing to buy across the board more expensive diesel models to save a couple of hundred on yearly tax....


Can you imagine when more ev choices comes people changing habits to fill a tank for a couple of euro.

The cheap tax was one element. The cheaper fuel and better mpg was also part of it but your point is a good one.

Having said that, I dont think the cheap fuel will make up for the very very poor range a 25kWh Sandero would have. Range is probably the number 1 fear and complaint that EV's have. At least when you switched to diesel the experience of owning the car was exactly the same... switching to EV is very different.

listermint

KCross wrote: »

Im not sure where you're coming from with that. The Sandero example was unkels not mine. He wanted to see a 15k Sandero EV. Im saying that wouldnt take off.




The cheap tax was one element. The cheaper fuel and better mpg was also part of it but your point is a good one.

Having said that, I dont think the cheap fuel will make up for the very very poor range a 25kWh Sandero would have. Range is probably the number 1 fear and complaint that EV's have. At least when you switched to diesel the experience of owning the car was exactly the same... switching to EV is very different.

I disagree , I think fast charging will change minds instantly.

Anyone I've talked to and explained about things like ionity and kwph they immediately go ohh, I didn't know that I thought I had to stand around for hours.

Few people get them then their friends then it explodes.

I think the range thing will disappear quickly very quickly

Same with phones folks used it give out about large batteries and swappable batterys.

You won't find a phone with a removable cover anymore and they all offer fast charging.

KCross

listermint wrote: »

I disagree , I think fast charging will change minds instantly.

Anyone I've talked to and explained about things like ionity and kwph they immediately go ohh, I didn't know that I thought I had to stand around for hours.

Few people get them then their friends then it explodes.

I think the range thing will disappear quickly very quickly

Same with phones folks used it give out about large batteries and swappable batterys.

You won't find a phone with a removable cover anymore and they all offer fast charging.

Maybe you’ll be right but I think it’s a very hard sell to convince someone that a 100km range car is a good option regardless of how fast it charges.

It works in a lot of cases (I have a 100km EV) but it’s not suitable for mass adoption imo.

I’d love you to be right!

Old diesel

People like their cars to be able "to do more then they need".

If you pull a 1.5 tonne trailer - youd prefer 3 tonne tow capacity rather then bang on the limit 1.5 tonne .

You might only "need" 100 miles range but youd feel more comfortable with 180 miles range .

You might only hit rapidgate on a Leaf 40 twice a year. But that twice a year could mess up your holiday plans .

Some guy in the Uk - on twitter I think - was unhappy with the BMS update because he still got rapidgate on 2nd charge and on the specific journey he found this out - the slow charge caused him to almost miss a flight.

Now rapidgate is a Nissan issue as we know but similar principles apply to lower range cars that are okay most of the time but might struggle range wise with longer trips .

We know the Leaf 62 has its issues but an Irish journalist on twitter was impressed that he could do Mayo to Dublin without a charge and still had 70 kms left .

In the real world in Ireland that ultimately matters .

KCross

unkel wrote: »

...They were overly optimistic about their asking price too imho and they've had it for sale for several months now. Used Model S are taking a big hit in value now too with the arrival of the Model 3 to UK shores.

Is it still for sale? What were they asking for it and how old is it?

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Well, they seem to have put their money where their mouth is.... they've bought it and took delivery yesterday

I cant imagine there are too many Model S owners swapping to this MG. They seem chuffed with it though.

The EVM channel guy gave it a positive review too. I think that introductory price is the big draw for everyone... its a steal at that money.

Pity not going to sell here, looks great, quick too, 7 secs to 60

UK has some excellent deals

Can't believe the ICE is half the price at £12,000

Nice engine too, 1.5 DOHC VTI-tech

Prefer that to any Dacia

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Maybe you’ll be right but I think it’s a very hard sell to convince someone that a 100km range car is a good option regardless of how fast it charges.

It works in a lot of cases (I have a 100km EV) but it’s not suitable for mass adoption imo.

The average yearly mileage in Ireland is 16k km. That's 43km per day. Half of all the cars do less than that. A 100km range would be perfectly fine, not for all people, but for a lot of people. As a car that does below annual mileage, as a second car, as a commuting car, a city car, a car for a pensioner, etc.

Obviously we will also need a nationwide fast charging network like they have in the likes of Norway or the Netherlands.

But as listermint says, once people know that they can save €1000 per year (TCO) with a €15k Sandero EV over a €10k Sandero petrol (or another basic second hand €10k petrol / diesel car), they will buy these cars in large numbers.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Is it still for sale? What were they asking for it and how old is it?

From memory the car was a 2015 and they were looking for GBP45k

AMKC

Mike9832 wrote: »

Pity not going to sell here, looks great, quick too, 7 secs to 60

UK has some excellent deals

Can't believe the ICE is half the price at £12,000

Nice engine too, 1.5 DOHC VTI-tech

Prefer that to any Dacia

Agreed. Am surprised no one has decided to open an MG garage here they are doing some really good cars now. I know they are not really MG but if the car, the dealer and service is good then they will sell. They could be the next Hyundai/Kia.

unkel

AMKC wrote: »

Agreed. Am surprised no one has decided to open an MG garage here they are doing some really good cars now. I know they are not really MG but if the car, the dealer and service is good then they will sell. They could be the next Hyundai/Kia.

In 15-20 years from now most of us will be buying Chinese cars. Mark my words. This industry in in far greater disruption than most people believe.

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

In 15-20 years from now most of us will be buying Chinese cars. Mark my words. This industry in in far greater disruption than most people believe.

In 15-20 years we won’t be buying cars....we will all be using gocar or something similar....

liamog

Shefwedfan wrote: »

In 15-20 years we won’t be buying cars....we will all be using gocar or something similar....

That's oft predicted, but I don't see it happening. We'd probably need an explosion of storage lockers for that to make sense. It's very handy having a portable 300l storage space within walking distance of wherever I am.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

In 15-20 years from now most of us will be buying Chinese cars. Mark my words. This industry in in far greater disruption than most people believe.

Its already well advanced, isnt it?

Mainstream manufacturers that are Chinese owned/funded
Jag
LandRover
MG
Volvo
Others?

Chinese EV startups, none of which are in Europe, but I'd say they will come...
Lucid
Faraday
Byton
BYD
Others?


If the German's dont pull up their socks the Asian will make life very difficult for them in the years ahead. The Koreans have already hurt them alot, when the Chinese decide to target Europe they'd want to have an answer for it.

listermint

Shefwedfan wrote: »

In 15-20 years we won’t be buying cars....we will all be using gocar or something similar....

Thats not a plausible scenario for anything other than urban dwellers

Idbatterim

But as listermint says, once people know that they can save €1000 per year (TCO) with a €15k Sandero EV over a €10k Sandero petrol (or another basic second hand €10k petrol / diesel car), they will buy these cars in large numbers

I agree. From this budget, the taxation around petrol and diesel needs to change, they should be charged from a minimum of E400 plus a year in my opinion for petrol, E600 for diesel!

Dont like it ? buy used!

they have cost themselves staggering amounts with the idiotic tax regime here. So many areas are starved of funding! including the appalling public transport here!

get rid of the years from the reg too! How many idiots change because of what a sticker on a piece of plastic says?

AMKC

KCross wrote: »

Its already well advanced, isnt it?

Mainstream manufacturers that are Chinese owned/funded
Jag
LandRover
MG
Volvo
Others?

Chinese EV startups, none of which are in Europe, but I'd say they will come...
Lucid
Faraday
Byton
BYD
Others?


If the German's dont pull up their socks the Asian will make life very difficult for them in the years ahead. The Koreans have already hurt them alot, when the Chinese decide to target Europe they'd want to have an answer for it.

Jag
LandRover

These are owned by Tata which is Indian but ye a lot of manufactures mostly British and the odd Swedish and Korean one as well as a Malaysian one now all owned by the Chinese.
I am surprised they the main Chinese car companies that is not the ones owned by a Chinese company are not here yet as it has been talked about for at least a decade now.

ELM327

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree. From this budget, the taxation around petrol and diesel needs to change, they should be charged from a minimum of E400 plus a year in my opinion for petrol, E600 for diesel!

Dont like it ? buy used!

they have cost themselves staggering amounts with the idiotic tax regime here. So many areas are starved of funding! including the appalling public transport here!

get rid of the years from the reg too! How many idiots change because of what a sticker on a piece of plastic says?

All great ideas, none of which will happen.
There will be 1-2cpl added to diesel duty, and possibly another 1c added to both petrol and diesel for carbon tax


Motor tax will increase the bands and the rates as per prior threads and updates on this, based in part on WLTP impact.


Possible that the 5k SEAI grant and/or the 5k VRt grant for EVs will be removed and replaced with lower VRT rates for real ZEV vehicles (not HEV or PHEV), along with an EV scrappage scheme for Euro 4 and older diesels.


Have heard the above on the grapevine, although this contact suggested some of these measures would be implemented last budget (in fairness they could have been planned but axed/bottled last min)

BigAl81

Electric Autos has two of these for sale at 34k each!

unkel

BigAl81 wrote: »

Electric Autos has two of these for sale at 34k each!

Eh? Nothing on their website. Those prices are silly anyway. It's a cheap mediocre at best Chinese EV in the popular form factor of a small to medium size crossover. Nothing wrong with that. But it's a GBP21k (from memory) car. Not a EUR34k car.

Idbatterim

unkel wrote: »

Eh? Nothing on their website. Those prices are silly anyway. It's a cheap mediocre at best Chinese EV in the popular form factor of a small to medium size crossover. Nothing wrong with that. But it's a GBP21k (from memory) car. Not a EUR34k car.

21500 sterling for first thousand uk orders I think.

Round Cable

Idbatterim wrote: »

21500 sterling for first thousand uk orders I think.

And that's for the base model, electric autos has 2 top of the range cars.

unkel

Still mad money if you can get an eNiro 64kWh which is a far superior EV with much more range for only a few grand more (but maybe with fewer shiny buttons). From an actual main dealer in this country. Not a car that is not sold here and can not be serviced here and has no warranty here.

I doubt very much that they actually have these cars for sale here. I'd say they are just posting a teaser and if someone here is mad enough to bite, they will bring the car in and put it on Irish plates. Buyer happy (but insane) and electricautos making a handsome profit. Can't fault electricautos here as long as they don't actually import a car until they have a deal done.

Gumbo

unkel wrote: »

I doubt very much that they actually have these cars for sale here. I'd say they are just posting a teaser and if someone here is mad enough to bite, they will bring the car in and put it on Irish plates. Buyer happy (but insane) and electricautos making a handsome profit. Can't fault electricautos here as long as they don't actually import a car until they have a deal done.

Possibly not “in stock” as you say. Phil posted it on FB yesterday but he specifically says “offered to us” so I would guess your thoughts are correct.

Round Cable

unkel wrote: »

Still mad money if you can get an eNiro 64kWh which is a far superior EV with much more range for only a few grand more (but maybe with fewer shiny buttons). From an actual main dealer in this country. Not a car that is not sold here and can not be serviced here and has no warranty here

Fully agree, and this was the reason I pulled out of buying an Ampera 4 years back. Although if I was willing to put up a few grand more for an eNiro, I might save up the extra €9k and go for the Model 3!

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

has no warranty here.

It does have warranty surely, they're generally all pan European. Just wouldn't be able to have warranty work done without heading north.

unkel

Indeed. No warranty here, as there are no dealers. But if you take it to the UK, they will provide warranty. You will also have to take it to the UK for all servicing.

tedpan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd-udWjohUg

AMKC

Would MG do well here if someone decided to start selling them here again. Bill Cullen maybe. I am surprised he has not tried already. His Ssangyong sales are not exactly going through the roof if he sells any at all.

Mike9832

India getting a much larger 73kWh pack soon for MG ZS EV

Weighing the same as the 44kWh version

UK will surely get it after, car like that will be ace with a pack that size

44kWh is a bit too small, real world is supposedly only 200km

73kWh will have 320km+ real world range

https://www.electrive.com/2019/12/09/mg-motor-working-on-affordable-suv-in-india/

unkel

1000km test 14:40, very poor result mainly because of its atrocious efficiency: 27kWh / 100km averaging just 68km/h (far worse than Tesla Model X, which was driving much faster)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK4AKGg3s-8

Black_Knight

unkel wrote: »

1000km test 14:40, very poor result mainly because of its atrocious efficiency: 27kWh / 100km averaging just 68km/h (far worse than Tesla Model X, which was driving much faster)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK4AKGg3s-8

Was that partially because the mg didn't regen when using cruise control?

Markcheese

Does Regen really return all that much energy to the battery ?
I just assumed it's s largeish car ,probably not optimised for electric drive ,

Mickeroo

Seems to suffer big time in cold weather with charging speeds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzysa9mFNvg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF8fm23RKK0

I would have thought the charging speed would be less of an issue in Ireland as the battery shouldn't have as much trouble getting warm in our weather.