Bombardier selling Belfast

Noxegon

Bombardier to sell Belfast operations https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-48130991

Inquitus

How many people work for Bombardier in Northern Ireland?
The company employs about 3,600 people in plane-making activities at a number of sites in and around Belfast. When suppliers are included, it is estimated to impact on 12,000 jobs.

Source

If those numbers are accurate its a massive hit to the NI Economy, should a buyer not be found, and until Brexit is clarified you'd have to be insane to buy Bombardier's NI Operations.

Snickers Man

So who is likely to buy it, if it's genuinely up for sale?

I believe most of its work at the moment is as a subcontractor to Airbus. You know, that big European company that is threatening to move all its existing manufacturing assets out of the UK after Brexit.

Are they the only real potential suitors?

Surely some aviation expert can help us out here.

Inquitus

Snickers Man wrote: »

I believe most of its work at the moment is as a subcontractor to Airbus. You know, that big European company that is threatening to move all its existing manufacturing assets out of the UK after Brexit.

Are they the only real potential suitors?

No one in their right mind is going to buy it until Brexit is settled, that's the long and the short of it.

Blut2

Airbus would be the only obvious suitor I'd imagine. But with Brexit still being a "who knows" situation theres no way they'll invest more into the UK.

Snickers Man

Inquitus wrote: »

No one in their right mind is going to buy it until Brexit is settled, that's the long and the short of it.

That's what I thought.

4068ac1elhodqr

If the politicans there had any sense (in light of brexitious), they'd be out campaiging for very soft borders, and perhaps even longer-term: UBI.

UBI (freedom dividend as the US calls it) means you get paid for nothing (well, same as their current politicans).
But opens doors for enterprise and gigging, amist the likely growing difficult economic conditions.
Factor in too, there is already a very, very large public sector in NI, so it is somewhat subsidised already.

Yes there is glimmers of light in the legal and IT services in Belfast, but that industry can get up and move itself overnight to Estonia/Ttimbuktu/Slovakia/Dundalk.
All you need is an airport/road, laptop and good fiber network.

Manufacturing is all about costs, hence Dyson is now making products in Singapore, and Mini is heading to EastEurope.
Read somewhere China plans to build it's future entire rolling fleet (circa 6,000 planes), itself.

Turbulent Bill

It's not just an NI issue either. I know of at least two Bombardier suppliers south of the border that made significant investments in equipment over the last few years. That isn't going to pay for itself if the work dries up.

arccosh

all Airbus's business plans are 10 years plus, and tied to a manufacturing line...

Unless they have some new line, or justification to change a line to there due to costs, they won't touch it with a barge pole

if the current line is a sub contract to Airbus, there might be hpe, but as mentioned, with Brexit still not sorted, I think it's doubtful, and Airbus already has a sour taste in it's mouth from the UK's handling and stance of Brexit in regards to how Airbus's Space and Defence section has been treated.

Blut2

I think if the price was low enough, and there were potentially tax benefits tied in to encourage investment, Airbus might have found a way to make it work. If Brexit wasn't a thing.

With Brexit they're more likely to close existing facilities in the UK than invest in a new one, though, sadly for NI.

smurfjed

Learjet
Design and manufacture of the forward and centre fuselages for the Learjet 70 and the Learjet 75 business jets.

Challenger
Design and manufacture of the centre fuselage for the Challenger 350 business jet, and the centre fuselage and engine nacelles for the Challenger 650 business jet.

Global
Design and manufacture of the forward fuselage, engine nacelles, horizontal stabiliser and other components for the Global 5000, Global 5500, Global 6000, and Global 6500 business jets, and the composite horizontal stabiliser and other components for the Global 7500 business jet.

They are a major source of aviation parts and not easily replaced, strangely enough all of the aircraft that I listed above are part of the Bombardier family so what is their replacement solution.

Stovepipe

bring the work back to Canada and stick the hand out to the Canadian govt (yet again) for more money...

tipp_tipp_tipp

Blut2 wrote: »

Airbus would be the only obvious suitor I'd imagine. But with Brexit still being a "who knows" situation theres no way they'll invest more into the UK.

Someone like GKN or Spirit would be more obvious imo. A site with significant composite capabilities would not be a bad investment. Not sure how healthy the A220 order book is at the moment. Maybe someone can shed light on this? Is a management buyout out of the question?

arccosh

what's worse is, as these descisions are long term, it won't happen immediately, Brexit will happen, everyone will say it's scaremongering and look how the plant survived Brexit, all the while the descision will have been made to close it after that line run, and Brexit won't be considered a factor in it

Bog Man 1

Boeing might buy it as one in the eye to Airbus if Brexit happens .

road_high

Bog Man 1 wrote: »

Boeing might buy it as one in the eye to Airbus if Brexit happens .

I’d say that’s a big might...after all, they’re a business not a political one up man ship show

Anteayer

Bog Man 1 wrote: »

Boeing might buy it as one in the eye to Airbus if Brexit happens .

How would that be one-in-the-eye for Airbus?

The UK would be outside the EU and Airbus has facilities in the US as it's a multinational company.

Brexit makes the UK a whole lot less attractive to manufacture in.

sandbelter

Bog Man 1 wrote: »

Boeing might buy it as one in the eye to Airbus if Brexit happens .

Airbus would simply now have two sites outside the single market which Airbus have made very clear that they want their production chain confined within.

As for Boeing, the money they put into Belfast is the money they can't put into the NMA.

murphaph

Would it be insane to think the operation could move south of the border somehow, (essential) workers and all?

BowWow

murphaph wrote: »

Would it be insane to think the operation could move south of the border somehow, (essential) workers and all?

Alternatively, move the border north and leave all the essential workers where they are...

Anteayer

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be all that optimistic they'll find a buyer.

It's a tough market due to global uncertainty and it's massively complicated by political instability in the UK due to Brexit and compounded locally due to lack of an assembly to smooth any of that over.

There was also already an issue with the Bombardier C series due to US protectionism driven by Trump.

Without Brexit chaos, Airbus might have been interested due to the C series / A220 links, but that's very unlikely given they might even be contemplating relocation of their own facilities in Britain to the EU. I can't really see anyone jumping at placing key manufacturing sites in the UK until there's stability around market access again. It is just too risky with complex supply chains.

Sadly for the workforce, it's about the worst possible timing for Bombardier to decide to pull out.

Hedgecutter

I was chatting to a manager from one of bombardier sub-contractor's based in the mid-west.
He believed airbus were big contenders to buy bombardier. But the problem they are having is orders are getting less and less over the last few weeks.

Hasn't been much in the media lately..

rivegauche

Air France/KLM have just almost definitely ordered a minimum of 60 A220-300 planes with 30 options.
Bombardier Q2 announcement is tomorrow and there might be more news then.

CRJ is sold to Mitsubishi without any intention of building more and to kill it off. Q400 is sold but with no great plans to keep it in production. It is not a priority for the purchaser who is happy to just maintain existing fleet. Rights to the Shed were sold a few months ago to Longview Capital too.

The obvious purchaser is Airbus but they don't want to pay more than a symbolic £1 for it. As they will exercise their option and take full ownership of the A220 no one else is really going to bid high to pay for a factory with one Customer who might stop ordering their product and source it elsewhere in Northern America.
Bombardier are trying to drum up interest but few buyers are out there. They might get lucky.

Tomorrow will be interesting.

Stovepipe

In the same vein, workers were protesting outside Harland and Wolff to get Boris to save their jobs, as they are apparently right out of oil rig and turbine blade work and the yard faces closure. Funnily enough, some people from the film industry wanted grants and tax cuts to build more studio space in the same yard, along the old docks, where quite a lot of studio work takes place (GoT, et al)

rivegauche

Tomorrow will be interesting.

and here we are today and their financial results are horrible. share price down. Aviation revenues withering away and Airbus quite happy to let them stew until Brexit comes to pass.

L1011

Airbus have to consider the overall issue of wing manufacture in the UK with Brexit. Broughton is ab issue also

Stovepipe

...on the 6 oclock news. Spirit build 737 hulls for Boeing so it might generate 737 work in NI in the future.

banie01

Stovepipe wrote: »

...on the 6 oclock news. Spirit build 737 hulls for Boeing so it might generate 737 work in NI in the future.

Bombardier build multiple Airbus Subsections.
I'd see it more as a move by Spirit to broaden their customer base in light of Boeing's current woes.

Here's hoping whatever the motivation, that N.I continues to employ a large number.

EI321

The lack of clarity around regarding tariffs on the airbus operation in Wales and the proximity of the Belfast plant beside a port may also be a factor.

Glad to see the Belfast operations future secured.

tipp_tipp_tipp

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/1031/1087758-bombardier-spirit-deal/

Sold to Spirit