Mart to Sell Young Pedigree Bulls

Brexitcircus

Is the any good marts in particular other than your normal weekly mart to sell handy pedigree bulls around 12 months old, that don't need to be halter trained.
Are there sales in Fermoy, Cashel?

whelan2

Brexitcircus wrote: »

Is the any good marts in particular other than your normal weekly mart to sell handy pedigree bulls around 12 months old, that don't need to be halter trained.
Are there sales in Fermoy, Cashel?

Done deal

Brexitcircus

whelan2 wrote: »

Done deal

Done deal seems to be extremely slow at the moment nothing selling.

whelan2

Brexitcircus wrote: »

Done deal seems to be extremely slow at the moment nothing selling.

What breed are they?

Brexitcircus

whelan2 wrote: »

What breed are they?

Angus and Hereford, not even getting any calls.

Sacrolyte

Any mart

Brexitcircus

Are a lot of dairy farmers using AI?

whelan2

Brexitcircus wrote: »

Angus and Hereford, not even getting any calls.

I'm northeast here and we getting a good few calls for Angus bulls, mainly repeat customers. 12 months is a tad young imo.

Brexitcircus

whelan2 wrote: »

I'm northeast here and we getting a good few calls for Angus bulls, mainly repeat customers. 12 months is a tad young imo.

You are probably right, there are older here too but no bite at the bit.

whelan2

Brexitcircus wrote: »

You are probably right, there are older here too but no bite at the bit.

Do you know any other breeders, give them your number. I give people other lads numbers when we run out of bulls. In a month or so lads will be looking for bulls to clean up.

patsy_mccabe

Brexitcircus wrote: »

whelan2 wrote: »

Done deal

Done deal seems to be extremely slow at the moment nothing selling.

I advertised a Lim bull yesterday on Donedeal , 5 star. Not one call yet. Country is full of pedigree bulls.

Brexitcircus

whelan2 wrote: »

Do you know any other breeders, give them your number. I give people other lads numbers when we run out of bulls. In a month or so lads will be looking for bulls to clean up.

Yes, same reports bulls are hard sold at the moment.

Brexitcircus

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I advertised a Lim bull yesterday on Donedeal , 5 star. Not one call yet. Country is full of pedigree bulls.

I have them up longer than that and not one call.

Albert Johnson

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I advertised a Lim bull yesterday on Donedeal , 5 star. Not one call yet. Country is full of pedigree bulls.

I'm inclined to agree with you there Patsy. It seems fashionable now to have a pedigree cow running with the sucklers. I know a good few lads that reduced the commercial herd and keep a few purebreds instead. The trend was selling springing heifers for a few years but it seems to have turned to pedigree bulls. There's still a market for quality stock but the whole job seems oversubscribed at the moment.

Brexitcircus

Albert Johnson wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree with you there Patsy. It seems fashionable now to have a pedigree cow running with the sucklers. I know a good few lads that reduced the commercial herd and keep a few purebreds instead. The trend was selling springing heifers for a few years but it seems to have turned to pedigree bulls. There's still a market for quality stock but the whole job seems oversubscribed at the moment.

Breed societies are going to have to do something about the overproduction of bulls.

whelan2

Brexitcircus wrote: »

Breed societies are going to have to do something about the overproduction of bulls.

Seems to only be in certain areas though. There's definitely a shortage in my area. Why would the breed societies do anything aren't they getting the registration fees etc?

Brexitcircus

whelan2 wrote: »

Seems to only be in certain areas though. There's definitely a shortage in my area. Why would the breed societies do anything aren't they getting the registration fees etc?

The quality of bulls at sales dropping, poor prices, high percentage of unsold bulls. None of this is good reading.

True, why would they when getting more money as a result.

Limestone Cowboy

Too many lads looking for London for them,an average pedigree bull isint worth any more than beef price.

Brexitcircus

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Too many lads looking for London for them,an average pedigree bull isint worth any more than beef price.

You are wasting your time breeding them in the first place if getting the same as beef prices and if that is the case you would want to be asking yourself some serious questions.

bogman_bass

The problem is lads think all their geese are swans and then get highly offended if the society or anybody else said that their stock isn’t up to scratch

Limestone Cowboy

Brexitcircus wrote: »

You are wasting your time breeding them in the first place if getting the same as beef prices and if that is the case you would want to be asking yourself some serious questions.

Everyone with pedigrees seems to think every bull is worth 2k+ at 12-15 months. There's enough bulls in the country that fellas don't need to be giving near that for the poorer ones. A poorly done yearling pedigree won't have eaten any more than a well done commercial animal that probably has better conformation and would struggle to make €1200 in the mart.

patsy_mccabe

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Everyone with pedigrees seems to think every bull is worth 2k+ at 12-15 months. There's enough bulls in the country that fellas don't need to be giving near that for the poorer ones. A poorly done yearling pedigree won't have eaten any more than a well done commercial animal that probably has better conformation and would struggle to make €1200 in the mart.

There's way more cost than that. Good AI straws cost about €50 and AI costs after that. If the bull doesn't perform you have to cover that too. I don't believe in heavy feeding bulls, it's the same bull you're buying fed or not. You'd like to think lads could see tru the feeding.

grassroot1

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

There's way more cost than that. Good AI straws cost about €50 and AI costs after that. If the bull doesn't perform you have to cover that too. I don't believe in heavy feeding bulls, it's the same bull you're buying fed or not. You'd like to think lads could see tru the feeding.

Well they don't in both rams or bulls buyers will scutter on about not wanting over fed animals and go right ahead and buy a ball of butter that falls apart when the feeding stops

Limestone Cowboy

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

There's way more cost than that. Good AI straws cost about €50 and AI costs after that. If the bull doesn't perform you have to cover that too. I don't believe in heavy feeding bulls, it's the same bull you're buying fed or not. You'd like to think lads could see tru the feeding.

There's plenty of lads using ai on sucklers aswell without seeing that kind of return. You know yourself from going to sales it's hard to shift a raw bull.

patsy_mccabe

What do you mean by 'raw' - not heavily fed?

Limestone Cowboy

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

What do you mean by 'raw' - not heavily fed?

Ya.

whelan2

Lads halter training them and showing them would need at least 2k. We dont halter train them price is normally 1700-1800 , if you dont buy him some one else will. We would put very little time into them in fairness. Always repeat customers .

whelan2

Brexitcircus wrote: »

You are wasting your time breeding them in the first place if getting the same as beef prices and if that is the case you would want to be asking yourself some serious questions.

What makes your bulls better than anyone elses?

kollegeknight

A neighbor is left with about 5 AA bills and apparently there is a lad in very west Clare with a few hundred AA pedigree bulls. He has a big shed with a crows nest for keeping an eye on them.

I was chatting the vet about potential directions to go for myself and he said whatever I do, stay away from pedigree anything as that boat had sailed. Every herd had a few now.

whelan2

kollegeknight wrote: »

A neighbor is left with about 5 AA bills and apparently there is a lad in very west Clare with a few hundred AA pedigree bulls. He has a big shed with a crows nest for keeping an eye on them.

I was chatting the vet about potential directions to go for myself and he said whatever I do, stay away from pedigree anything as that boat had sailed. Every herd had a few now.

I remember about 15 years ago there was a glut of aa bulls, it coincided with us after doing an et and getting a load of bulls related to a bull we had in ai. We took £900 for them to get rid of them

Brexitcircus

whelan2 wrote: »

What makes your bulls better than anyone elses?

I didn't say that. I am saying if pedigree stock are making the same as commercial cattle why breed pedigree.

If people are selling bulls and especially heifers for commercial prices that will bring down the market average.

I am selling heifers and am getting lads calling me there is such a person selling heifers for x price which are commercial prices.

Mac Taylor

Pedigree breeding goes in cycles, this one may last a bit longer though due to a big reduction in the number of suckler herds. I’ll cull hard and only keep the best breeding cattle, might buy one or two if the moneys right.

It’s true about every lad keeping a few, see it myself locally.

patsy_mccabe

The worst thing that can happen when you start out with pedigrees, is getting off to a good start. I sold a few already and of course I went out a bought a few more PB heifers. 'Rolling the dice again' - I call it.:D

Lady Haywire

Brexitcircus wrote: »

I didn't say that. I am saying if pedigree stock are making the same as commercial cattle why breed pedigree.

If people are selling bulls and especially heifers for commercial prices that will bring down the market average.

I am selling heifers and am getting lads calling me there is such a person selling heifers for x price which are commercial prices.

I don't think you're right there. People buying bulls (or pedigree heifers) will pay what they want to pay, for the quality of bull (or heifer) which they want to buy. Of course you're going to get people saying X in the hopes that they get a bull cheaper off you. You're trying to sell the beast, enticing others to buy it. Complaining that there's too many others selling at more competitive rates is a bit odd. The reason they're cheaper is usually because they're of poorer quality.
One of the most difficult things some folk (myself included) find to do it criticise & value their own stock. As said above, a lot of the issue is too many thinking their goose is laying golden eggs when it's laying the same old ordinary eggs as any other!

patsy_mccabe

Can you really judge a bull by looking at it? If that were the case, there'd be no need of progeny testing AI bulls. I think the back breeding is very important, but most buyers don't know the different bulls unless they used themselves in AI.

Mooooo

12 months is too young for this season. Demand for aa could well be down as well as aa calves aren't making much more than fr bulls in marts this year, so lads are thinking why bother paying for an AA or HE bull when they could get two fr bulls to mop up for the same as one of the above and send them to the factory at the end of the summer for the same or more than what they paid for em. Know a few lads at that.
If your market is sucklers I dunno it may be different.

Brexitcircus

Lady Haywire wrote: »

I don't think you're right there. People buying bulls (or pedigree heifers) will pay what they want to pay, for the quality of bull (or heifer) which they want to buy. Of course you're going to get people saying X in the hopes that they get a bull cheaper off you. You're trying to sell the beast, enticing others to buy it. Complaining that there's too many others selling at more competitive rates is a bit odd. The reason they're cheaper is usually because they're of poorer quality.
One of the most difficult things some folk (myself included) find to do it criticise & value their own stock. As said above, a lot of the issue is too many thinking their goose is laying golden eggs when it's laying the same old ordinary eggs as any other!

If some people know they can get heifers for commercial prices then they won't want to pay more even hearing the price over the phone, I have experienced it. If you go to any of the bull sales the poor quality bulls are bringing down the price of the better ones. There is a difference between selling at competitive price then at commercial prices, not complaining I am stating the facts, its common since them people are messing up the whole market. There is plenty of people too getting well paid for pedigrees.

You are right I think we are all the same at times when it comes to our stock.

whelan2

Out of interest what are you asking for the 12 month old bulls?

J.O. Farmer

Brexitcircus wrote: »

If some people know they can get heifers for commercial prices then they won't want to pay more even hearing the price over the phone, I have experienced it. If you go to any of the bull sales the poor quality bulls are bringing down the price of the better ones. There is a difference between selling at competitive price then at commercial prices, not complaining I am stating the facts, its common since them people are messing up the whole market. There is plenty of people too getting well paid for pedigrees.

You are right I think we are all the same at times when it comes to our stock.

Ultimately is the point of pedigree cattle not to produce commercial beef. Pedigree heifers could be better crossed to a different breed. They may breed a better calf through hybrid vigour

As for bulls 1 bull will cover a lot of cows so only the best should be used. The rest in reality are commercial cattle for killing and the prices reflect that.

Lady Haywire

It's a misconception that pedigree breeding will make you more money. You'll hear about the good ones but you won't hear about the 5/6 average ones which only make a basic price. If a dairy farmer only wants live calves he's not going to pay top dollar for a black bull when they're only going to ship them out the gate asap after they hit the ground.
Was thinking about de-registering a bull this year because I didn't think him good enough. Yet in the last few months he has done enough of a thrive for me to maybe train him & bring him to a sale or at least advertise him on DD as a PBR'D & bring to a mart. He'd be grand for heifers, won't breed amazing stock but he has a good temper, a great rib & nice legs under him. But I'd be bonkers if I was going to a sale looking for 2k for him. I'll have a value in my head & that's what I'll look for, or as close to it as possible.

Are lower priced bulls really the only ones messing up the market though, you can see high priced bulls getting 'suspicious' bids from sides too :pac: And that messes up the prices the other way. Only way you're going to get correct prices of a sale to suit yourself it to look at them all & take an average of the ones you like or ones which are as similar to your stock as possible.
Twitter can be good for giving single prices of each lot in sales, the Limousin society do anyway, dunno about others.

patsy_mccabe

I've seen terrible messing at a society sale recently. Savage money paid for a bull. I see the same bull now selling over in the UK at £40 a pop. Advertised as having been bought for x amount. You can see what they are doing? Very deceitful and the society do nothing about it.

Limestone Cowboy

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Can you really judge a bull by looking at it? If that were the case, there'd be no need of progeny testing AI bulls. I think the back breeding is very important, but most buyers don't know the different bulls unless they used themselves in AI.

What other way would you judge one if he was standing in front of you patsy? Length, width, frame, bone, muscle, feet. It's all there in front of you to decide if he's a good or a bad animal. The figures are handy for reference but if he doesn't possess a certain trait himself would you really expect him to breed it on?

patsy_mccabe

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

What other way would you judge one if he was standing in front of you patsy? Length, width, frame, bone, muscle, feet. It's all there in front of you to decide if he's a good or a bad animal. The figures are handy for reference but if he doesn't possess a certain trait himself would you really expect him to breed it on?

Take the width of a bull for example. Most guys would look at a bull with wide front shoulders and think, he's going to be hard calving. But if he was from a line of well proven easy calving bulls you'd think he'd be ok. Plenty of bulls in AI that look powerfull but proven easy calving.

You could also cross the same bull on a cow year after year. What's to say that the poor looking bull from this cross mighn't breed better than the good looking one.

kay 9

As the old man used to say, never get rid of a bull until you see the progeny.
Actually in the market for an AA bull myself.
Big variation in prices and style on dondeal.
Plenty of adds with no prices as well.
Do they expect bids or what's up with that?

Limestone Cowboy

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Take the width of a bull for example. Most guys would look at a bull with wide front shoulders and think, he's going to be hard calving. But if he was from a line of well proven easy calving bulls you'd think he'd be ok. Plenty of bulls in AI that look powerfull but proven easy calving.

You could also cross the same bull on a cow year after year. What's to say that the poor looking bull from this cross mighn't breed better than the good looking one.

Anything is possible when it comes to genetics patsy. You could breed 5 bulls from the same parents and none of them will be the same and none of their progeny will be the same. If you want to play the game of percentages though the good looking one is more likely to breed higher quality stock.

patsy_mccabe

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Anything is possible when it comes to genetics patsy. You could breed 5 bulls from the same parents and none of them will be the same and none of their progeny will be the same. If you want to play the game of percentages though the good looking one is more likely to breed higher quality stock.

Is that true though? I've talked to lads that paid big money for fancy looking bulls only to be very disapointed.
Some of my best cows here over the years weren't much to look at.

Limestone Cowboy

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Is that true though? I've talked to lads that paid big money for fancy looking bulls only to be very disapointed.
Some of my best cows here over the years weren't much to look at.

I don't think we are going to agree If a bull didn't posses a certain trait himself like good length then I wouldn't expect him to pass it onto his progeny. There's a few things I hate to see in a bull, a big head, a narrow front, a back that isint level and that wolly hair some lims can have. Cows are meant to be feminine, not supposed to look like bulls. I had no real luck here with muscley type cows. No milk, hard to Calf, hard to get in calf. Much prefer a good square block of a cow than a muscley one.

Buford T. Justice XIX

kollegeknight wrote: »

A neighbor is left with about 5 AA bills and apparently there is a lad in very west Clare with a few hundred AA pedigree bulls. He has a big shed with a crows nest for keeping an eye on them.

I was chatting the vet about potential directions to go for myself and he said whatever I do, stay away from pedigree anything as that boat had sailed. Every herd had a few now.

Funny you should mention that herd with a surplus of stock. I was handed this this morning...