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Dublin Bus/Go Ahead SG type centre door location.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭john boye


    devnull wrote: »
    I can count on one hand the trips where the bus was really full when the bus started skipping stops but I would need a few hands to count times people walked up stairs when there was double figures or more seats free and walked back down and I would need more hands still to count times when a driver started skipping stops when double figures are free.

    Conversely I couldn't tell you how many times I've been upstairs on a bus with free seats scattered all around and assumed it wasn't that busy and then gone downstairs to find absolute bedlam with people standing all the way down the back. Drivers are practically powerless tbf, I've seen them get on the mic to encourage people to go upstairs and even seen them lower the screen and stick their head out of the cab to ask pax directly and it's mostly ignored.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Something I learned designing software systems over many years, is that you simply can't rely on people doing the right thing or following instructions. Some of course will do the right thing, but for every employee who does, there will be one who just can't be bothered.

    I've no doubt there are great bus drivers who make people move down the bus, etc. But for as many of those there, there are lots that just can't be bothered. Or are just too busy driving the bus safely.

    That is why I feel you should be designing the bus in such a way to encourage people to do the right thing, without driver interaction.

    When you think about the BRT/Luas/Polish/German model, which has the best dwell times. You realise the model is actually a very simple one, that makes it hard for people to do the wrong thing and requires little or no interaction or instruction from the driver. The driver just drives the bus, like on the Luas.

    Passengers operate the doors, passengers enter/exit through any doors, passengers take care of ticketing themselves, no interaction with the driver, no spaces hidden away in the corner or upstairs. It is a nice, simple model and it works well.

    I of course realise that this model is radically different to what we have here for buses (though it is what we have with Luas/DART) and more is the pity.

    I agree that the BusConnects plan for the entire city and moving to the London Bus model for all our buses will be a very good step in the right direction and a big improvement over our current model. No it isn't as good as BRT, but it will have a wider impact then just three BRT routes would have had.

    Having said that, once BRT and the London Bus model is complete, I hope they might look at BRT model for those three routes again and use them as a spring board to roll that model out further.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Bk sums it up really


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭thomasj


    The problem is , is this model future proof enough. We are a country that make rash costproof decisions and when it comes to the time that we need it we regret taking the cheapest option (or no money - axing projects) and then replan the process again.

    So does it get to the stage that if we get to a time where there are huge passenger numbers and we realise we need another 100 or 200 sg-style buses do we just shrug our shoulders and do it?

    I maintain BRT is the best option we have along with bus connects .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    thomasj wrote: »
    The problem is , is this model future proof enough. We are a country that make rash costproof decisions and when it comes to the time that we need it we regret taking the cheapest option (or no money - axing projects) and then replan the process again.

    So does it get to the stage that if we get to a time where there are huge passenger numbers and we realise we need another 100 or 200 sg-style buses do we just shrug our shoulders and do it?

    I maintain BRT is the best option we have along with bus connects .

    At the time BRT in the form of Swiftway was first muted it was seen by many as a low cost solution to building a metro especially the Swords/Airport route.

    At the end of the day these things have to be looked at on a cost benefit analysis basis BRT while highly beneficial will only serve 3 or 4 corridors while bus connects will Improve bus transport throughout the city also BRT could prove to be a disaster too if not done properly see FTR as an example of a disastrous BRT style system.

    Of course BRT shouldn't be written off but I think we should be looking at getting our entire bus system up to scratch before we start looking at it again.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,736 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Some of the UK ALX400's had the door where you suggest OP:

    stagecoach18271.jpg

    That just looks WRONG to me though :p Much prefer the standard placement:

    8896300088_c82b8849dd_b.jpg

    That's just me though. Of course I'd have said every AV/AX we bought should have been dual door.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Some of the buses in London have the staircase set back further down the bus to be in line with the middle door with seating up the front under the staircase and beside the driver.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I'm confused about your argument are you suggesting that we introduce a flat fare and keep single door buses in service and stop ordering dual door buses? Having passengers board and disembark from the same door is only going to minimise the benefits of a flat fare driver interaction free situation surely reducing the benefits of a flat fare.

    A flat fare diminishes the number of driver interactions where you may have multiple trips a day, you only need to interact with the driver once, walk straight on afterwards showing your ticket or pass.

    Why can't you buy a day or 3 day ticket or a group ticket in Dublin from the driver? Why is there no app? Why have we not invested in new Wayfarers or contactless payment instead of a bus with an extra door and slow boarding?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    dfx- wrote: »
    A flat fare diminishes the number of driver interactions where you may have multiple trips a day, you only need to interact with the driver once, walk straight on afterwards showing your ticket or pass.

    When we have a flat fare there should be no driver interaction required whatsoever, instead just have two card readers, one by the right hand side of the door and another by the driver. Driver interaction is something that most countries with a developed transport system have all but eradicated.
    Why can't you buy a day or 3 day ticket or a group ticket in Dublin from the driver?

    Because driver interaction slows things down and promoting more people go to the driver will massively increase dwell times. We need to cut down on people going to the driver, not sending more people do it. The dwell times on buses in Ireland and the UK outside London are shocking in comparison to pretty much every other major European country.
    Why is there no app? Why have we not invested in new Wayfarers or contactless payment instead of a bus with an extra door and slow boarding?

    As you may have seen there are plans to move to account based ticketing as part of BusConnects, but it will not be a cheap or overnight process to replace over 1000 machines, get all of the companies to put public transport first and before their own interests, get all the staff trained and the back-end systems in place. We should however see some more progress with this in the next year.

    Ticketer would have been an excellent system if it would support off machine validation like the Parkeon equipment does, but sadly the former doesn't and the NTA sensibly want to reduce driver interaction because that is something that really slows things up.

    Hopefully in the future we move to a multi-door, flat fare system and eliminate cash as much as possible and make going to the driver the absolute exception and we can then have bus transport that really gets people out of their cars, rather than being closer to being associated with something like Thatcher said.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    There's a step between what we have now and no driver interaction at all, but still with a flat fare and vastly reduced driver interaction. It also would have a greater impact on boarding times now overnight than any number of doors has.

    A day ticket vastly reduces driver interaction after purchase. You buy it once, not going to the driver every time you board. Same for group tickets.
    Hopefully in the future we move to a multi-door, flat fare system and eliminate cash as much as possible and make going to the driver the absolute exception and we can then have bus transport that really gets people out of their cars, rather than being closer to being associated with something like Thatcher said.

    Doesn't need to be that ideological, forcing people to do one over the other. Cash can remain an option, off board and on board purchasing can be still an option with modern machines with multi-journey tickets.

    We are spending plenty of money on a new fleet and such systems are in place already in the UK with single door operators..what are we waiting for?


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    dfx- wrote: »
    There's a step between what we have now and no driver interaction at all, but still with a flat fare and vastly reduced driver interaction. It also would have a greater impact on boarding times now overnight than any number of doors has.

    I don't want the 'That'll do' kind of solutions that Ireland is famous for though, I want a proper solution that countries with efficient public transport systems have where they can board large number of people in 10-15 seconds as is common in Poland and many other countries who have far better public transport systems than ours.
    A day ticket vastly reduces driver interaction after purchase. You buy it once, not going to the driver every time you board. Same for group tickets.

    Or you could simply buy it off bus together and leave nobody waiting whilst you fumble around for your change, wait for the driver to select the relevant product and count your cash and take your receipt. In a lot of operators in the UK you even have to wait for the driver to then seal the ticket in a plastic sleeve.
    Doesn't need to be that ideological, forcing people to do one over the other. Cash can remain an option, off board and on board purchasing can be still an option with modern machines with multi-journey tickets.

    Public transport has never been about ideology to me, I've never cared one bit about that. I just care about making public transport as fast an easy to use with as little time wasted as possible so public transport can be for everything like in cities like Vienna rather than something that supporters of conservatism can use as an example of people who have failed in life.
    We are spending plenty of money on a new fleet and such systems are in place already in the UK with single door operators..what are we waiting for?

    With all due respect, The UK system is also not a patch on the systems that are in operation in other European countries. The UK and Ireland are very much behind the curve and until they address that you won't get the modal share of other countries who are ahead of the curve because people won't get out of their car if the bus means 20% longer journey times.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    devnull wrote: »
    I don't want the 'That'll do' kind of solutions that Ireland is famous for though, I want a proper solution that countries with efficient public transport systems have where they can board large number of people in 10-15 seconds as is common in Poland and many other countries who have far better public transport systems than ours.

    Plodding along with no middle ground until your 'proper solution' comes about is an exhibition of "it'll do" mentality. The wayfarer and Leap 'will do' now for years.
    Or you could simply buy it off bus together and leave nobody waiting whilst you fumble around for your change, wait for the driver to select the relevant product and count your cash and take your receipt. In a lot of operators in the UK you even have to wait for the driver to then seal the ticket in a plastic sleeve.

    Or you could do both. With modern machines and flat fares, it takes no time for the driver to do so once a day for a day ticket.

    No more fumbling for change after the first time.
    Public transport has never been about ideology to me, I've never cared one bit about that. I just care about making public transport as fast an easy to use with as little time wasted as possible so public transport can be for everything like in cities like Vienna rather than something that supporters of conservatism can use as an example of people who have failed in life.

    You're not ideological but you won't accept intermediate improvements that we could have been working on in recent years because it's not a 'proper solution' and will absolutely rule out accepting cash payment. How about we start making it work for those who use it now and not worry about supporters of conservatism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    dfx- wrote: »
    There's a step between what we have now and no driver interaction at all, but still with a flat fare and vastly reduced driver interaction. It also would have a greater impact on boarding times now overnight than any number of doors has.

    So you believe we should have a flat but not benefit from it as there would still be driver I traction.
    A day ticket vastly reduces driver interaction after purchase. You buy it once, not going to the driver every time you board. Same for group tickets.

    And how many people do you think would buy such a day if such a product is available to buy on a leap card or even a phone. Who exactly is going to buy a day or even a three day ticket likely costing €10-€15 and more for a 2 or 3 day option in exact change? No one carries that much change around.
    We are spending plenty of money on a new fleet and such systems are in place already in the UK with single door operators..what are we waiting for?

    Dwell times in most cities in the UK outside London are worse than Dublin most people are still paying cash even with ticketer the driver is still required to press buttons and print a ticket I would favour the London option anyday of the week over introducing rather than being a simple flat fare tap and go system like in London.

    Even cash payments are also slower as most UK bus operators still give change and only a few operators have auto fare such as First Glasgow, Lothian and NE West Midlands. Unless the exact fare is paid then in most cases dwell times are slower you have idiots trying to pay with a £20 or £50 note and fare disputes are much more common with drivers are much more common.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,414 ✭✭✭VG31


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Dwell times in most cities in the UK outside London are worse than Dublin most people are still paying cash even with ticketer the driver is still required to press buttons and print a ticket I would favour the London option anyday of the week over introducing rather than being a simple flat fare tap and go system like in London.

    The only places I have been with worse bus dwell times then Dublin are all in the UK.

    Buses in Jersey are flat fare and cashless. You pay by contactless but yet you still have to interact with the driver and dwell times are appalling.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    VG31 wrote: »
    Buses in Jersey are flat fare and cashless. You pay by contactless but yet you still have to interact with the driver and dwell times are appalling.

    Sounds like Cork. Cork is a flat fare, but there is no right hand validators, you have to interact with the driver and for some mad reason it takes twice as long to work as it does in Dublin and it looks like the driver has to press three buttons!

    I don't understand how they so badly messed up the introduction of Leap in Cork.

    It feels like they rolled out Leap to Cork just for the sake of Leap, with no thought to it actually improving dwell times. It is completely half arsed.
    dfx- wrote: »
    Plodding along with no middle ground until your 'proper solution' comes about is an exhibition of "it'll do" mentality. The wayfarer and Leap 'will do' now for years.

    Non of us here are saying that!! I and the others commenting here have been complaining for years about Leap not being good enough and be complaining that we should be moving a zero driver interaction, flat fare (or tag-on/tag-off) model.

    I'm blue in the face talking about it. You'll find years of posts about this topic from me.

    What is different, is that it looks like their might finally be light at the end of the tunnel. It looks like that within the year we may have the ticketing finally largely sorted.

    We should have the flat fare 90 minute ticket. BTW note that for under 19's we already have a flat fare ticket since last year, no need for driver interaction for them.

    We should hopefully also have new, faster ticket machines and hopefully new account based ticketing.

    If it all goes well, we should finally have a really good ticketing system and much better dwell times. A system similar to Oyster in London and far better then what you are describing elsewhere in the UK.

    No, it isn't my ideal model, that would be the Luas/Polish model, but that isn't realistically going to happen in the short term, it is a bit too radical compared to our model. But at least the London Bus type model we are heading too is far superior to our current model and the one in the rest of the UK.

    BTW the company who is doing the next gen ticketing for the NTA is very well regarded. They created Oyster in London and they are rolling the same system out in New York, etc. at the moment. It sounds like they have a very mature yet modern system, so it sounds like we are in saving hands with them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭d51984


    It will be interesting to see what the interior layout on the new ADL type buses will be. I wonder will the stair case be opposite the center doors on these.

    Has anyone got any interior photos of similar buses to the ones on order?

    Sorry for dragging up an old thread.

    Its a disgrace Joe!



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