Electric car for company?

mrcheez

Am I correct in reading that purchasing an electric vehicle attracts 0% BIK for personal use when it's purchased through a ltd company?

Are the SEAI grants available for this too, or is that only for non-company car purchases?

KCross

SEAI administer the grant. Its €3800 when bought through a company
https://www.seai.ie/grants/electric-vehicle-grants/grant-amounts/

The BIK exemption for buying the car is upto the first €50k of the cars RRP value (i.e. before grant price). BIK applies on the remainder.

There is no BIK on using the companies electricity to charge the car.

gizmo555

You may be able to get some VAT back too

gizmo555 wrote: »

In general, you can't claim VAT back on passenger vehicles, including EVs.

But it seems to me the Kona is a "qualifying vehicle" as defined in this Revenue document, and if the car is used for at least 60% business purposes, 20% of the VAT can be reclaimed (which would more or less offset the lower level SEAI grant for businesses).

0lddog

Do they still qualify for ACA ?

gizmo555

0lddog wrote: »

Do they still qualify for ACA ?

Yes.

rolion

gizmo555 wrote: »

Yes.

But the car has to be brand new and applies only to Corporation Tax 12.5%.
How a self employed pays corporation tax which is only for LTDs ? Or,I read paragraph full sentence ?

https://www.seai.ie/energy-in-business/accelerated-capital-allowance/

mrcheez

Am I right in assuming that brand new would generally be best when it comes to electrics?

- Better battery technology?
- Fresher battery?

0lddog

rolion wrote: »

But the car has to be brand new and applies only to Corporation Tax 12.5%.
How a self employed pays corporation tax which is only for LTDs ? Or,I read paragraph full sentence ?

https://www.seai.ie/energy-in-business/accelerated-capital-allowance/

Yup, however OP in original post asked about purchasing through a Ltd Co.

gizmo555

rolion wrote: »

But the car has to be brand new and applies only to Corporation Tax 12.5%.
How a self employed pays corporation tax which is only for LTDs ? Or,I read paragraph full sentence ?

https://www.seai.ie/energy-in-business/accelerated-capital-allowance/

The ACA scheme applies to companies, sole traders, and farmers:

https://www.seai.ie/energy-in-business/accelerated-capital-allowance/

I'm no accountant, but I presume it works for sole traders in a similar way to companies. That is, normally the cost of a car would have to be written off over 8 years. This means 7/8 of the costs would be income that would be liable to tax in the year of purchase, whether corporation tax or income tax. But if it can be written off entirely in the year of purchase, there is no tax liability. (There is a maximum accelerated capital allowance of €24k for cars.)

KCross

mrcheez wrote: »

Am I right in assuming that brand new would generally be best when it comes to electrics?

- Better battery technology?
- Fresher battery?

Not a simple yes or no answer, imo.

An EV battery from 2-3 years ago isnt alot different to a battery in a new car today.

The main advancements really are in the cost of the battery and the ability to cram more capacity into the same space giving you more range.

I'd say its really down to your range requirements first and foremost and then decide what budget you have and then see what EV's fit that profile.

On the range, just ensure that your normal day to day needs are covered entirely by home charging with plenty (maybe 20-30%) to spare as you need to allow for some degradation over time and also allow for reduced range in winter.

If a 2-3 year old car meets your requirements then go for that if you want to spare money.

Buying new gives you more warranty if its a car you plan to keep long term so that would also be a consideration.

It really depends on what you want but I wouldnt be afraid to buy a s/h one if it suits. The batteries are holding up quite well as are the residual values.

mrcheez

I'd be doing occasional trips of around 170km each way, so I'd like to have a range of at least 220km on one charge if possible.

But most journeys would be in the 10-20km range.


Just had a quick search there...

The new Nissan Leaf, or Hyundai Kona electric seem to cover this range pretty easily.

unkel

mrcheez wrote: »

The new Nissan Leaf, or Hyundai Kona electric seem to cover this range pretty easily.

Presuming your trip is mostly motorway at 120km/h, the Nissan Leaf won't make that 170km on a cold day

The Kona will almost make it there and back on a cold day. A world of difference between these two cars ranges...

The upcoming Tesla Model 3 will be better value for money than the Kona if you can wait for another few months. Or until next year for the cheaper models.

mrcheez

unkel wrote: »

Presuming your trip is mostly motorway at 120km/h, the Nissan Leaf won't make that 170km on a cold day

The Kona will almost make it there and back on a cold day. A world of difference between these two cars ranges...

The upcoming Tesla Model 3 will be better value for money than the Kona if you can wait for another few months. Or until next year for the cheaper models.

yeah no rush, although had planned on picking up something during the summer


Also just a quick one, are the charging stations around the country still free and all compatible with all cars?

Gumbo

mrcheez wrote: »

yeah no rush, although had planned on picking up something during the summer


Also just a quick one, are the charging stations around the country still free and all compatible with all cars?

Charges been implemented this year.

unkel

Running your car on electricity is so cheap that it nearly makes no difference if you get the occasional free charge. My last car cost 15c/km in petrol. My electric car charged at home at night rate costs 1c/km

Or in other words I can do 100k km on electric for the same price as 7k km on petrol

mrcheez

What sort of prices are the charging stations "charging"?

Is it pretty much same as charging costs at home?

Also I see that the SEAI offer €600 for an external charger. What sort of cost is it to get one of these installed? I have a plug in the house but I guess leaving a window open in winter while charging would become a pain

ted1

mrcheez wrote: »

What sort of prices are the charging stations "charging"?

Is it pretty much same as charging costs at home?

Also I see that the SEAI offer €600 for an external charger. What sort of cost is it to get one of these installed? I have a plug in the house but I guess leaving a window open in winter while charging would become a pain

Your plug is limited in the amount of power it can supply. So the charge time is longer. An external charger can charge at a higher rate.

After the grant you should be paying about 150 euro.

KCross

And you have to apply for the charge point grant BEFORE you do any work and it has to be done and signed off by a certified electrician... not the man next door!

mrcheez

Aye. Same with all SEAI grants

Happy_Harry

ted1 wrote: »

Your plug is limited in the amount of power it can supply. So the charge time is longer. An external charger can charge at a higher rate.

After the grant you should be paying about 150 euro.

I love to be corrected but company cars don't qualify for the €600 charger grant - at least so I am told by a colleague who found after he spent the money .. No information on the SEAI website (that I could find) relating to this grant and company cars.

KCross

Happy_Harry wrote: »

I love to be corrected but company cars don't qualify for the €600 charger grant - at least so I am told by a colleague who found after he spent the money .. No information on the SEAI website (that I could find) relating to this grant and company cars.

You are correct. It applies to private individuals only. It is in the T&C on the SEAI website.

ted1

Happy_Harry wrote: »

I love to be corrected but company cars don't qualify for the €600 charger grant - at least so I am told by a colleague who found after he spent the money .. No information on the SEAI website (that I could find) relating to this grant and company cars.

If it’s a company car would the company not pay for it ?

rolion

unkel wrote: »

Running your car on electricity is so cheap that it nearly makes no difference if you get the occasional free charge. My last car cost 15c/km in petrol. My electric car charged at home at night rate costs 1c/km

Or in other words I can do 100k km on electric for the same price as 7k km on petrol

Very corect and true,applied to you, as private individual.

Unfortunately,after i spoke with few of my lads around here.the feedback i got was that the money saved on the maintenance and running of the EV van or car is massively lost when the staff have to wait for the car to recharge at the public points.That tiem is very valubale as is seing as daytime billable time.

Also,the scare of not being able to make it to destination and or returning home,that the fast charger is not available there...put them off completely of the EV cars.Too much pressure adn distraction from daily normal tasks

Not lastly,one valid point was...if i have to charge the car at home overnight or day time,who pays for the instalaltion ? Company ok but the how do i know how much the car took out of my electricity bill ? Why do i have to use the company car to charge on my private installation,what incentives do i have,who keeps tracks of the units ? And,also,wife asked,why do i have to change to night tariff and pay more day time,for the company car !?

So,thats how most of the conversations ends. Fine if you owner of the EV is the owner of the company ... but as a staff,i guess the boss has to talk with the boss in the house first.

Good luck

Happy_Harry

ted1 wrote: »

If it’s a company car would the company not pay for it ?

Not in my case- and to be fair to them, they provide chargers at work free of charge.

gizmo555

rolion wrote: »

Why do i have to use the company car to charge on my private installation,what incentives do i have,

Using the company car as much as you like for personal purposes with your employer paying for the vehicle and all its running and maintencance costs, and not being liable for BIK tax as a result, is a pretty big incentive.

rolion wrote: »

who keeps tracks of the units ?

You do. What's the big deal? If you were using your own car and claiming expenses you'd have to keep track of those figures instead. Mostly the cars themselves can log their charging. Or, a charger like a Zappi can do so as well.

rolion wrote: »

And,also,wife asked,why do i have to change to night tariff and pay more day time,for the company car !?

You don't have to.

mrcheez

Happy_Harry wrote: »

I love to be corrected but company cars don't qualify for the €600 charger grant - at least so I am told by a colleague who found after he spent the money .. No information on the SEAI website (that I could find) relating to this grant and company cars.

Ah ok, so for the company to purchase/install the charger we're looking at €750 less VAT?

i.e. €577.50

TheChizler

mrcheez wrote: »

Ah ok, so for the company to purchase/install the charger we're looking at €750 less VAT?

i.e. €577.50

Only if you get a €600 charger, there are cheaper ones out there.

KCross

mrcheez wrote: »

Ah ok, so for the company to purchase/install the charger we're looking at €750 less VAT?

i.e. €577.50

Where are you getting that figure from?

It can cost as much or as little as you like. Its down to the charge point you pick and the tradesman you use to put it in.

The company can also, AFAIK, use the ACA scheme for buying the charge point and as you said saves the VAT too so it doesnt really need the €600 grant which is probably why companies were excluded from that grant.

rolion

gizmo555 wrote: »

Using the company car as much as you like for personal purposes with your employer paying for the vehicle and all its running and maintencance costs, and not being liable for BIK tax as a result, is a pretty big incentive.




You do. What's the big deal? If you were using your own car and claiming expenses you'd have to keep track of those figures instead. Mostly the cars themselves can log their charging. Or, a charger like a Zappi can do so as well.



You don't have to.

An electric car / van to be used as a company issued "personal" vehicle and take advantage of BIK is not an incentive... trust me !
A nice ICE primary main car,yes,big difference,you can use it in a proper way.
I dont see you staying in the queues with partner or family at the public chargers or,worse, tell your partner you cant go away this weekend due to not enough range. Staff will end-up having two cars,one EV for work and other,as a family geta way car.
Some of the lads even tought to have the EV car charigng over night at the office premises while staff having to drive in and out from home with their own vehicle.

You know i'm talking about units from the electricity meter and not the comfy easy to read units from the car's odometer !?
How do you read the units from the car charger ,how do you use them as a valid business expense !? Based on your guts ?
Revenue or accountant i will have to validate them... prove it ?
My EV charger provides them but they are not trusted, are not official values that can stand against an official checks.
You can use "mileage allowance" alright or any other form of public servant but still,those units will bite your personal electricity bill.
And,if is paid by your partner (again, i cannot mention wife or husband here) i will like to see the practicality of it.
You know that you will pay more in the electricity bill once you change to dual tariff, can you justify it to your partner !? How,please help me...

May i ask how old are you (as it seems these days i cannot ask if you are married )...

My feedback above is from talking to my circle of friends,staff and business owners.
Can you confirm your reply is yours or based on some of conversations "at the queue at the public EV charger" !?
Im talking here practical things tought by real people, staff and business owners not contructive disputes on the public forums...

Thanks.

mrcheez

KCross wrote: »

Where are you getting that figure from?

from here...

ted1 wrote: »

After the grant you should be paying about 150 euro.

gizmo555

rolion wrote: »

An electric car / van to be used as a personal vehicle and take advantage of BIK is not an incentive... trust me !

I disagree. Trust me.

rolion

KCross wrote: »

Where are you getting that figure from?

It can cost as much or as little as you like. Its down to the charge point you pick and the tradesman you use to put it in.

The company can also, AFAIK, use the ACA scheme for buying the charge point and as you said saves the VAT too so it doesnt really need the €600 grant which is probably why companies were excluded from that grant.

Corect.
How do you install the unit at the staff end point (home or apartment) !?
Is that a valid business expense in the accountant' books ?
Is under your name or staff's name... or his partner ...or landlords ?

As a company,i will feel liek enforcing an additional commitment towards to the staff that i paid for and give you a free EV charging point.
As a staff,i dont feel too well to have that installed at my house as it may create an adiitional force of retention,it will limit my freedom to move to another work place / job.

A laptop and a mobile phone is completely different...

What if the staff moves in few months ?
What if you want to fire that individual ?

Good luck with that...

KCross

rolion wrote: »

Corect.
How do you install the unit at the staff end point (home or apartment) !?
Is that a valid business expense in the accountant' books ?
Is under your name or staff's name... or his partner ...or landlords ?

As a company,i will feel liek enforcing an additional commitment towards to the staff that i paid for and give you a free EV charging point.
As a staff,i dont feel too well to have that installed at my house as it may create an adiitional force of retention,it will limit my freedom to move to another work place / job.

A laptop and a mobile phone is completely different...

What if the staff moves in few months ?
What if you want to fire that individual ?

Good luck with that...

All valid questions rolion but its really down to the individual companies policies and it simply requires consultation and agreement between employer and employee. Its not rocket science, just some sensible agreements.

e.g.
Employee installs it and pays for it because they know it will be of use to them long term and they get "mileage" from the employer to cover the electricity usage. Simple.

Or, employer pays for it. Obviously as an employee I would be insisting that the charge point becomes mine once installed as I'm not having a fixture pulled off the wall when I change jobs so again you simply agree that up front with the employer.

Or employee refuses the charge point, as is their right, and only charges at work... its not difficult to work through these issues.

KCross

mrcheez wrote: »

from here...

Ah ok. Its a good ball park figure. Not an exact science though.

As said, depends on charge point you pick, tradesman you use and how awkward/easy your specific house is to do the install..... e.g. would you have to dig driveways and use expensive SWA cable or is it one hole out your gable wall and 2m's of standard cable.

mrcheez

KCross wrote: »

Ah ok. Its a good ball park figure. Not an exact science though.

As said, depends on charge point you pick, tradesman you use and how awkward/easy your specific house is to do the install..... e.g. would you have to dig driveways and use expensive SWA cable or is it one hole out your gable wall and 2m's of standard cable.

It would be a hole in the wall, but the pavement between the front of the house and where the car is parked is essentially a pedestrianised section (not public) between all the terraced houses where the postman walks, or neighbours walk between houses, so the cable would need to be wrapped up in some bright reflective material to ensure it's not a trip-hazard

I wouldn't be liable as it is technically private property, but still I'd rather not be tripping people up.

EDIT: maybe something like this is the solution: https://www.speakev.com/data/attachments/0/276-997fefdb171a95fd6de6d3221b43b3c8.jpg

KCross

mrcheez wrote: »

It would be a hole in the wall, but the pavement between the front of the house and where the car is parked is essentially a pedestrianised section (not public) between all the terraced houses where the postman walks, or neighbours walk between houses, so the cable would need to be wrapped up in some bright reflective material to ensure it's not a trip-hazard

I wouldn't be liable as it is technically private property, but still I'd rather not be tripping people up.

EDIT: maybe something like this is the solution: https://www.speakev.com/data/attachments/0/276-997fefdb171a95fd6de6d3221b43b3c8.jpg

Are you saying that the charge point would be on the wall of your house and then the cable to plug into the car would be going across a footpath to your car which is just a few short metres away in your dedicated parking space?

If its a communal foothpath it sounds more like public rather than private.... even if it is outside your house? Are you sure the footpath is actually your property? I'd thread carefully there.
e.g. If you were extreme and walled off that footpath would the council be objecting on the basis that you dont own the footpath? My guess is they would hence public liability would be an issue for you. I'd be getting legal advice on that one before you spent any money or put a cable across it.... Ireland is a litigious place!

rolion

gizmo555 wrote: »

I disagree. Trust me.

I take that as you have a good accountant...
Enjoy it.

mrcheez

KCross wrote: »

Are you saying that the charge point would be on the wall of your house and then the cable to plug into the car would be going across a footpath to your car which is just a few short metres away in your dedicated parking space?

If its a communal foothpath it sounds more like public rather than private.... even if it is outside your house? Are you sure the footpath is actually your property? I'd thread carefully there.
e.g. If you were extreme and walled off that footpath would the council be objecting on the basis that you dont own the footpath? My guess is they would hence public liability would be an issue for you. I'd be getting legal advice on that one before you spent any money or put a cable across it.... Ireland is a litigious place!

Yeah it's private property.

Hard to describe, but imagine

- All houses terraced in a line
- Short 1.5m concrete section in front of all front doors (no separation between all houses)
- Drop-off to a driveway / front garden plot
- At end of driveway / front garden plot is public pathway
- Then road


People walking on the 2m concrete section between houses have no reason to do so unless doing door to door delivery, or visiting neighbour, it's not intended as a public walkway.