Measures proposed to tackle repeat learner permit holders

ayux4rj6zql2ph

This isn't such a bad thing, the amount of people who refuse to sit/refuse to turn up for driving tests are staggering.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0423/1045109-learner-permits/

125,000 learner permit holders who obtained their first licence between 1984 and 2016 have never taken a driving test, according to figures obtained by The Irish Times.

She said the RSA has submitted suggestions to the Department of Transport that a learner permit for someone on their fourth or subsequent permit would only last for six months, rather than a year.

It has also suggested the cost of fourth and subsequent permits be increased from €35 to at least €50.

People should not be allowed to get a third or subsequent permit unless they have evidence of having sat and failed a test by right.

e_un

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote: »

People should not be allowed to get a third or subsequent permit unless they have evidence of having sat and failed a test by right.

Eh, this would cause issues for some people. I got my first learner permit six years ago and did the 12 mandatory lessons but never did a test. Circumstance and life got in the way then and I didn’t drive again until this January. I had to apply for a third driving permit in January as mine had expired but because I had never sat a test I wouldn’t have been able to get one if this rule were a thing. I also wouldn’t have been able to do a test since my permit had expired, so I would have been stuck in no man’s land.

e_un

e_un wrote: »

Eh, this would cause issues for some people. I got my first learner permit six years ago and did the 12 mandatory lessons but never did a test. Circumstance and life got in the way then and I didn’t drive again until this January. I had to apply for a third driving permit in January as mine had expired but because I had never sat a test I wouldn’t have been able to get one if this rule were a thing. I also wouldn’t have been able to do a test since my permit had expired, so I would have been stuck in no man’s land.

build in a reset and 'start again' clause then

ayux4rj6zql2ph

e_un wrote: »

Eh, this would cause issues for some people. I got my first learner permit six years ago and did the 12 mandatory lessons but never did a test. Circumstance and life got in the way then and I didn’t drive again until this January. I had to apply for a third driving permit in January as mine had expired but because I had never sat a test I wouldn’t have been able to get one if this rule were a thing. I also wouldn’t have been able to do a test since my permit had expired, so I would have been stuck in no man’s land.

I sure genuine circumstances such as verified medical problems are accounted for. It’s the likes of people who endlessly apply for the test solely to renew the learner permit and then don’t bother sitting the test, making it an annual or biannual occurrence is the core of the problem.

Not sitting the test because you couldn’t be bothered means you shouldn’t on the road, equally if you have a phobia of the test but still are able enough to operate car is another area.

zepman

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote: »

It’s the likes of people who endlessly apply for the test solely to renew the learner permit and then don’t bother sitting the test, making it an annual or biannual occurrence is the core of the problem.

This.

I can't imagine why someone would apply for a test and intentionally not sit it, when it's a no-lose situation. Even if you fail, you have a statement of outcome in your hand which means you won't have to spend money to book a test on your next renewal.

People like this should be targeted and should be easy enough to catch based on the number of tests they have not shown up for. The fact that they are endlessly spending money on applying for driving tests and not sitting any is worrying.

Eric Cartman

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote: »

I sure genuine circumstances such as verified medical problems are accounted for. It’s the likes of people who endlessly apply for the test solely to renew the learner permit and then don’t bother sitting the test, making it an annual or biannual occurrence is the core of the problem.

Not sitting the test because you couldn’t be bothered means you shouldn’t on the road, equally if you have a phobia of the test but still are able enough to operate car is another area.

This is a serious issue and contributes a lot to the backlog. Every provisional after your third should be 100 euro to renew. Theres clearly a lot of people doing this because of a lack of enforcement, That needs to be stepped up and i think there should be a 5000 euro fine if youre caught driving alone on a 4th or consecutive permit. Really need people to get out of this 'easy option' of never doing a test.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Eric Cartman wrote: »

This is a serious issue and contributes a lot to the backlog. Every provisional after your third should be 100 euro to renew. Theres clearly a lot of people doing this because of a lack of enforcement, That needs to be stepped up and i think there should be a 5000 euro fine if youre caught driving alone on a 4th or consecutive permit. Really need people to get out of this 'easy option' of never doing a test.

What would really put pressure on people is to only issue 4th or subsequent learner permits for 3 months at a time at a prohibitive cost so as to encourage the learner to go for the test. 3rd learner permits should only be issued in the event of someone failing and the second learner permit having expired.

If you took out all the no shows it would speed up the process and reduce the backlog.

The flip side to this is those who try but can’t pass the test, should they be permitted to carry on, driving is a privilege also some see it an as entitlement.

ED E

Have to wonder if loads of these are fronting. €50 vs €100 doesnt matter if they're actually paying 2x for insurance (€500+ loss).

Eric Cartman

ED E wrote: »

Have to wonder if loads of these are fronting. €50 vs €100 doesnt matter if they're actually paying 2x for insurance (€500+ loss).

a lot of fronting. A lot of middle aged women driving round on their husbands 'second' car as a named driver, no l plates up, not a care in the world.

MascotDec85

The amount of people that have come to me since January that fit into this category is unreal. The amount I’ve turned away is bigger.

Since real enforcement started last December people are starting to sit up, take notice and do something about it.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

MascotDec85 wrote: »

The amount of people that have come to me since January that fit into this category is unreal. The amount I’ve turned away is bigger.

Since real enforcement started last December people are starting to sit up, take notice and do something about it.

What is the general age bracket of these people? I'm curious to know how many people say, 40+ fall into this area, there really is no excuse for not sitting the test.

On what basis did you turn them away? If you can say why that is?

The Clancy amendment is only the stepping stone, this will push it on more. Only way to force people to do the test is to point blank refuse to issue multiple permits without evidence of having sat it. The RSA have put forward proposals to the DTTAS, will be interesting to see what they are.

Wishbone Ash

Bring in a deposit system for the test like €500 - refundable if you do the test. If you don't show up you forfeit it.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Bring in a deposit system for the test like €500 - refundable if you do the test. If you don't show up you forfeit it.

Is this scheme in place in other countries? (genuine question)

Wishbone Ash

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote: »

Is this scheme in place in other countries? (genuine question)

I've no idea.

MascotDec85

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote: »

What is the general age bracket of these people? I'm curious to know how many people say, 40+ fall into this area, there really is no excuse for not sitting the test.

On what basis did you turn them away? If you can say why that is?

The Clancy amendment is only the stepping stone, this will push it on more. Only way to force people to do the test is to point blank refuse to issue multiple permits without evidence of having sat it. The RSA have put forward proposals to the DTTAS, will be interesting to see what they are.

The guts of them are in their 30s mostly.
The ones I had to turn away was purely down to not having enough space to fit them in. I don’t feel it’s very fair to give precedence to people trying to cram in 5 lessons into a week before their test when that’ll prevent me teaching my pupils who are doing EDT on a weekly/fortnightly basis

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Came across this on Twitter, it shows the age bracket of the permit holder and how many holders there, unsure how accurate it is.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

MascotDec85 wrote: »

The guts of them are in their 30s mostly.
The ones I had to turn away was purely down to not having enough space to fit them in. I don’t feel it’s very fair to give precedence to people trying to cram in 5 lessons into a week before their test when that’ll prevent me teaching my pupils who are doing EDT on a weekly/fortnightly basis

These people were only acting based on the legislation? they weren't bothered prior to it?

I'd give priority myself to pupils doing EDT if i were in your shoes. I considered going for the ADI, but then opted against it, if i went for it i'd like to be able to do it in all licence categories, might revisit it in time.

Eric Cartman

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote: »

Came across this on Twitter, it shows the age bracket of the permit holder and how many holders there, unsure how accurate it is.

I wonder why the massive increase in 30-39 year olds.

there should be nobody 70 or over with a learners permit, sounds harsh but come on thats insanity.

Posy

Are those statistics just for category B permits?

Wishbone Ash

Posy wrote: »

Are those statistics just for category B permits?

No, they're for all categories. Category B is approx 60% of the total number.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Posy wrote: »

Are those statistics just for category B permits?

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

No, they're for all categories. Category B is approx 60% of the total number.

That's correct, does it include permits still valid but the holder has passed their test? My learner permit from last year still has 14 months validity on it despite passing my test.

Wishbone Ash

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote: »

That's correct, does it include permits still valid but the holder has passed their test? My learner permit from last year still has 14 months validity on it despite passing my test.

I doubt it as I'm fairly sure the LP and licence will have the same number.

Dravokivich

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I wonder why the massive increase in 30-39 year olds.

there should be nobody 70 or over with a learners permit, sounds harsh but come on thats insanity.

Any breakdown by gender and no. of permits, like which demographics need to cop themselves on the most.

They probably didn't need to drive when younger and bought a place out where theres no public transport. In fairness, I didn't start learning until I was 30/31.

Dravokivich

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I doubt it as I'm fairly sure the LP and licence will have the same number.

They do

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I doubt it as I'm fairly sure the LP and licence will have the same number.

Dravokivich wrote: »

They do

Yep it never changed the whole way through from Provisional/LP to full over the years.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Now here's an interesting discussion i had with someone this morning on this topic.

They don't hold a valid permit or licence, and said at this stage there is no point in reapplying as they would have to go through the entire process again of a theory test etc, never having gotten to full licence stage.

The person says that they do however renew the insurance and never question the renewal prices etc and just pay it as the company in question haven't asked them for a copy of the provisional licence as it was then, they said they will never sit a driving test at this stage as a result.

Another area that needs looking at is drivers having to produce their driving licence/lp or at least give the number of it annually if they change insurer, if they remain with a current insurer this should still need looking at.

I know there are terms and conditions of having a valid licence etc to comply with the policy and the law, but people just refuse to do so.

I changed insurers recently, went back to the insurer i spend a long time with and bar the policy inception i was never once asked for it as i kept renewing for years until i eventually left last year due to a cheaper quote elsewhere.

zepman

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote: »

Now here's an interesting discussion i had with someone this morning on this topic.

They don't hold a valid permit or licence, and said at this stage there is no point in reapplying as they would have to go through the entire process again of a theory test etc, never having gotten to full licence stage.

The person says that they do however renew the insurance and never question the renewal prices etc and just pay it as the company in question haven't asked them for a copy of the provisional licence as it was then, they said they will never sit a driving test at this stage as a result.

So this person owns and even drives a car?? :eek:

ayux4rj6zql2ph

zepman wrote: »

So this person owns and even drives a car?? :eek:

I'll make it worse.

They are the sole driver for their physically disabled parent and possess a Primary Medical Certificate.

They get the VAT off when they buy a brand new car once the front passenger seat is adapted for the disabled person and also get vat back on the diesel and are exempt from motor tax.

Plumbthedepths

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote:

The person says that they do however renew the insurance and never question the renewal prices etc and just pay it as the company in question haven't asked them for a copy of the provisional licence as it was then, they said they will never sit a driving test at this stage as a result.

Their insurance is invalid, plus their luck will run out at the next Garda checkpoint .

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Their insurance is invalid, plus their luck will run out at the next Garda checkpoint .

yes you are correct on the insurance.

It is going on since 2007.

A garda checkpoint isn't an issue, has never been. they check the discs, see the disabled badge in the window and get waved through.

goat2

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote: »

Now here's an interesting discussion i had with someone this morning on this topic.

They don't hold a valid permit or licence, and said at this stage there is no point in reapplying as they would have to go through the entire process again of a theory test etc, never having gotten to full licence stage.

The person says that they do however renew the insurance and never question the renewal prices etc and just pay it as the company in question haven't asked them for a copy of the provisional licence as it was then, they said they will never sit a driving test at this stage as a result.

Another area that needs looking at is drivers having to produce their driving licence/lp or at least give the number of it annually if they change insurer, if they remain with a current insurer this should still need looking at.

I know there are terms and conditions of having a valid licence etc to comply with the policy and the law, but people just refuse to do so.

I changed insurers recently, went back to the insurer i spend a long time with and bar the policy inception i was never once asked for it as i kept renewing for years until i eventually left last year due to a cheaper quote elsewhere.

If they are in an accident, what will be the result, as a person that has not passed the test have to have a qualified driver in vehicle with them, how is that going to work out

zepman

goat2 wrote: »

If they are in an accident, what will be the result, as a person that has not passed the test have to have a qualified driver in vehicle with them, how is that going to work out

This person doesn't even have a valid learner permit. So even with a qualified driver in the vehicle, they are still driving illegally. Right?

ayux4rj6zql2ph

goat2 wrote: »

If they are in an accident, what will be the result, as a person that has not passed the test have to have a qualified driver in vehicle with them, how is that going to work out

The insurance will payout to the third party and seek recover costs from the person that doesn't hold a licence.

goat2

zepman wrote: »

This person doesn't even have a valid learner permit. So even with a qualified driver in the vehicle, they are still driving illegally. Right?

Wow, they could get themselves in a lot of trouble,

ayux4rj6zql2ph

zepman wrote: »

This person doesn't even have a valid learner permit. So even with a qualified driver in the vehicle, they are still driving illegally. Right?

You could have Lewis Hamilton sit next to them in the car, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the legality of it all.

The main reasons given is they have never had as much as a tip, and said over their dead body will they reapply and have to do the EDT, honestly it makes a mockery of the system when this type of carry on is happening and i have no doubt it is far from an isolated case.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

goat2 wrote: »

Wow, they could get themselves in a lot of trouble,

The insurers can't or won't check the driver file with the RSA to verify if a valid licence/permit is in force. I know previously the government suggested allowing them access it but it will cost them (The insurance companies).

Plumbthedepths

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote:

A garda checkpoint isn't an issue, has never been. they check the discs, see the disabled badge in the window and get waved through.

Every Garda checkpoint I have gone through in the last six months my drivers license was requested. Only Monday last as a passenger with my wife she was required to produce hers. They will get caught.

goat2

I was shocked to hear that so many people have not done test, I know it is nerve wrecking, I was a nervous wreck doing it, but knew it was my passport to freedom of not looking over shoulder when driving, also the insurance come down with a licence, as well as knowing that I was covered,

Eric Cartman

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote: »

I'll make it worse.

They are the sole driver for their physically disabled parent and possess a Primary Medical Certificate.

They get the VAT off when they buy a brand new car once the front passenger seat is adapted for the disabled person and also get vat back on the diesel and are exempt from motor tax.

Theres a lad I know who did similar rather than exchange his american licence, so theoretically doesnt have one. Insurers should have to ask for a fresh copy every 2 years, would wipe that out completely

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Theres a lad I know who did similar rather than exchange his american licence, so theoretically doesnt have one. Insurers should have to ask for a fresh copy every 2 years, would wipe that out completely

Yeah it's as good as the same thing. Asking annually is probably easier though as people have their licence revoked on medical grounds, they expire etc. When you start digging into it all there is a whole lot of reform that could be brought in but again you'll have people up in arms.

zepman

goat2 wrote: »

I was shocked to hear that so many people have not done test, I know it is nerve wrecking, I was a nervous wreck doing it, but knew it was my passport to freedom of not looking over shoulder when driving, also the insurance come down with a licence, as well as knowing that I was covered,

Exactly. A couple of weeks ago, after I got the text from NDLS saying my full licence had been dispatched, I drove on the private roads around the apartment complex I live in. I was constantly wondering "what if I'm stopped", and I was not even on a public road. There's enough things to pay attention to while driving without having this nagging distraction. So I didn't drive again until the licence arrived in the post a couple of days later. Can't imagine anyone driving for years without even a valid learner permit.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

zepman wrote: »

Can't imagine anyone driving for years without even a valid learner permit.

It's a cultural thing in Ireland, the older generation see it as socially acceptable just like drink driving was a generation ago, it'll take another generation if ever for it to be seen as socially unacceptable to drive alone on a learner permit or even without one which is worse again.

Eric Cartman

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote: »

It's a cultural thing in Ireland, the older generation see it as socially acceptable just like drink driving was a generation ago, it'll take another generation if ever for it to be seen as socially unacceptable to drive alone on a learner permit or even without one which is worse again.

In dublin perhaps, like drink driving or doing stupid speed in unroadworthy cars I think ill be dead before the border counties get the message

MascotDec85

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote: »

These people were only acting based on the legislation? they weren't bothered prior to it?

I'd give priority myself to pupils doing EDT if i were in your shoes. I considered going for the ADI, but then opted against it, if i went for it i'd like to be able to do it in all licence categories, might revisit it in time.

If you were to do it you’d be better off doing it in Category B, building up experience then adding additional categories after that.

MascotDec85

Eric Cartman wrote: »

In dublin perhaps, like drink driving or doing stupid speed in unroadworthy cars I think ill be dead before the border counties get the message

That’s a little unfair on border counties tbh, like it doesn’t go on in Cork and Kerry

Eric Cartman

MascotDec85 wrote: »

That’s a little unfair on border counties tbh, like it doesn’t go on in Cork and Kerry

Well it does clearly but they have a much bigger problem, sure look at the garda twotter thread, every second post is donegal , cavan , monaghan people caught with no licence and drunk or no disks at all on the car.

MascotDec85

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Well it does clearly but they have a much bigger problem, sure look at the garda twotter thread, every second post is donegal , cavan , monaghan people caught with no licence and drunk or no disks at all on the car.

I’m sorry but that’s just not true. I follow that account and ALL counties are guilty. In fact, I just looked at it and out of numerous posts one was Donegal. Nass, Wicklow, Dublin, Limerick and Cork all featured heavily.

mohawk

I am one of those people who haven’t sat the driving test even though I have had a learner permit for years. I am not driving around unaccompanied. Like people seem to be assuming. I was living for years on other side of country so was getting very irregular lessons whenever I could afford it and also had a babysitter available. Now I am actually getting regular practice and hopefully will be doing the test soon. Not sure what is wrong with that.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

mohawk wrote: »

I am one of those people who haven’t sat the driving test even though I have had a learner permit for years. I am not driving around unaccompanied. Like people seem to be assuming. I was living for years on other side of country so was getting very irregular lessons whenever I could afford it and also had a babysitter available. Now I am actually getting regular practice and hopefully will be doing the test soon. Not sure what is wrong with that.

When did you start driving out of curiosity? You fall into the category of people who applied for the test and never showed up to endlessly renew the permit? I'm not having a go at you by the way but you must be the first person to come on here and admit it.

Posy

Maddux Purple Yardage wrote: »

You fall into the category of people who applied for the test and never showed up to endlessly renew the permit?

To be fair, you can cancel the test in advance. People on repeat permits don't necessarily just not show up for a test. When I had my permit, I cancelled the (many) tests I didn't feel ready usually about a month before the test date. My slot would then be allocated to somebody else. I would never just be a no-show.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Posy wrote: »

To be fair, you can cancel the test in advance. People on repeat permits don't necessarily just not show up for a test. When I had mine, I cancelled the (many) tests I didn't feel ready usually about a month before the test date. My slot would then be allocated to somebody else. I would never just be a no-show.

Yes indeed, you can cancel twice without losing the fee. Did you lose your fee on a few occasions? It’s a costly process.