Issues with getting phoned by work at night

LotharIngum

Asking this for my sister so I don't have 100% of the information but if im leaving anything needed out I can get the extra info from her.

She has been working in a job for about 5 years and her normal hours are 9 - 5.

About 2 years ago they closed another office and her office have had to take on all the foreign clients.

At the time they asked her was she available to be phoned during the night and she said yes. But they were phoning her every night so she tried to stop it.

But they said they would make sure there were hardly any calls at night from then on and that they would pay her €50 per night for being available every second week to be called at night, as well as working her normal hours and she doesn't mind the odd call now that she is getting paid to be "available for calls".

Now these calls are 1 or 2 am and sometimes last 1 hour or two hours and may require her to log into work on her laptop to check/send mails etc as well as go on conference calls.

The problem is that when she gets called at 1 or 2 and then she is expected to be in for 9 the next morning. She had an accident last week due to tiredness driving into work. So she has asked can she work from home if she gets called during the night before. Because other people in the company can work from home for various reasons. They said no.

Is it reasonable for them to refuse her to work from home when she has been working 9 - 5 the day before. Gone to sleep at about 12. Phoned at 1am and gone back to sleep probably at 4am and then up at 7am to drive into work for 9-5 again. And maybe the same thing again the next night.

They insist it is reasonable. She is now used to the money she gets to be on call so she doesn't want to give that money up and not do it and besides she wont get promoted again if she stops doing it which has been made clear to her. But should there be an onus on the employer to be flexible in this instance?

Sorry for the ramble. She was fairly shook up when she rang me after the accident and I said I would see if I could get some advice for her.

Ash.J.Williams

LotharIngum wrote: »

Asking this for my sister so I don't have 100% of the information but if im leaving anything needed out I can get the extra info from her.

She has been working in a job for about 5 years and her normal hours are 9 - 5.

About 2 years ago they closed another office and her office have had to take on all the foreign clients.

At the time they asked her was she available to be phoned during the night and she said yes. But they were phoning her every night so she tried to stop it.

But they said they would make sure there were hardly any calls at night from then on and that they would pay her €50 per night for being available every second week to be called at night, as well as working her normal hours and she doesn't mind the odd call now that she is getting paid to be "available for calls".

Now these calls are 1 or 2 am and sometimes last 1 hour or two hours and may require her to log into work on her laptop to check/send mails etc as well as go on conference calls.

The problem is that when she gets called at 1 or 2 and then she is expected to be in for 9 the next morning. She had an accident last week due to tiredness driving into work. So she has asked can she work from home if she gets called during the night before. Because other people in the company can work from home for various reasons. They said no.

Is it reasonable for them to refuse her to work from home when she has been working 9 - 5 the day before. Gone to sleep at about 12. Phoned at 1am and gone back to sleep probably at 4am and then up at 7am to drive into work for 9-5 again. And maybe the same thing again the next night.

They insist it is reasonable. She is now used to the money she gets to be on call so she doesn't want to give that money up and not do it and besides she wont get promoted again if she stops doing it which has been made clear to her. But should there be an onus on the employer to be flexible in this instance?

Sorry for the ramble. She was fairly shook up when she rang me after the accident and I said I would see if I could get some advice for her.

what does she do?

Creamy Goodness

Does the phone have an off switch? It's what I do on my work phone - unless I'm travelling - it gets switched off the second I get home.

LotharIngum

She works for a fairly high profile marketing company in Dublin but im not entirely sure what her job is.
I think she is involved in troubleshooting design issues.

amcalester

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Does the phone have an off switch? It's what I do on my work phone - unless I'm travelling - it gets switched off the second I get home.

She’s agreed to do it and gets paid extra for it so turning it off is probably not a good idea.

OP does she work in a role that she needs to be in the office during the day?

Creamy Goodness

amcalester wrote: »

She’s agreed to do it and gets paid extra for it so turning it off is probably not a good idea.

Missed that paid where she agreed.

pmce4

LotharIngum wrote: »

Asking this for my sister so I don't have 100% of the information but if im leaving anything needed out I can get the extra info from her.

She has been working in a job for about 5 years and her normal hours are 9 - 5.

About 2 years ago they closed another office and her office have had to take on all the foreign clients.

At the time they asked her was she available to be phoned during the night and she said yes. But they were phoning her every night so she tried to stop it.

But they said they would make sure there were hardly any calls at night from then on and that they would pay her €50 per night for being available every second week to be called at night, as well as working her normal hours and she doesn't mind the odd call now that she is getting paid to be "available for calls".

Now these calls are 1 or 2 am and sometimes last 1 hour or two hours and may require her to log into work on her laptop to check/send mails etc as well as go on conference calls.

The problem is that when she gets called at 1 or 2 and then she is expected to be in for 9 the next morning. She had an accident last week due to tiredness driving into work. So she has asked can she work from home if she gets called during the night before. Because other people in the company can work from home for various reasons. They said no.

Is it reasonable for them to refuse her to work from home when she has been working 9 - 5 the day before. Gone to sleep at about 12. Phoned at 1am and gone back to sleep probably at 4am and then up at 7am to drive into work for 9-5 again. And maybe the same thing again the next night.

They insist it is reasonable. She is now used to the money she gets to be on call so she doesn't want to give that money up and not do it and besides she wont get promoted again if she stops doing it which has been made clear to her. But should there be an onus on the employer to be flexible in this instance?

Sorry for the ramble. She was fairly shook up when she rang me after the accident and I said I would see if I could get some advice for her.

I don't need to know what your sister does to realise she needs to seek professional advice in this situation. The health and safety authority might be a starting point to assess if these working hours fall inside the European guidelines for shift work. There is an 11 hour rule that the worker is not obliged to attend work for 11 hours after completing extended hours. My interpretation could be wrong. hope this helps

Charles Ingles

Tell your sister to divert her phone to 1911(the talking clock)
When she isn't in the mood for taking calls

nthclare

Charles Ingles wrote: »

Tell your sister to divert her phone to 1911(the talking clock)
When she isn't in the mood for taking calls

Talking clock in China

LotharIngum

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Does the phone have an off switch? It's what I do on my work phone - unless I'm travelling - it gets switched off the second I get home.

Yes, but she is required to be on call so she cant switch it off.
She just wants the option to be able to work from home when she does get a phone call. She has already had one accident a few weeks ago due to fatigue and has had another few close calls over the years which she puts down to fatigue.

When she told them this they just said she has to be in for 9 every day whether she has been woken up or not. Its all ok the odd time, but it happens at least twice a week. Ive told her to just quit making her self available and take the pay cut but she says there is more to it than that. They have made it clear (not in any way that can be proven) that she is expected to do this and if she doesn't not to expect a promotion or pay rises or the sort anymore.

amcalester

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Missed that paid where she agreed.

For €50 quid a fortnight and the lack of flexibility I’d just tell them I was no longer able to support these teams and ask that they make alternative arrangements to begin in 4 weeks.

nthclare

There's seriously something wrong with a lot of workplaces in Ireland.

I'm in my 40's and this was unheard of back in the 90's I know time's have changed, but people's lives are being dominated by their respective employers.

Back in the day you'd only see this on hillstreet blues, a cop getting a call late at night and having to work on a case.

Progressive my shovel dept, more like ownership of someone's dignity and comfort zone.

Turn off the phone....

granturismo

amcalester wrote: »

For €50 quid a fortnight and the lack of flexibility I’d just tell them I was no longer able to support these teams and ask that they make alternative arrangements to begin in 4 weeks.

I think shes getting paid €50 per night to be on call every 2nd week.

from https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Good_Workplace_Relations/codes_practice/COP8/

it looks like there should be a 12.5 hour break between shifts exempting a 1 hour phone call.


Example 1

An exempted employee works Monday to Friday 9a.m. to 5.30p.m. He/she works in an industry which cannot be interrupted on technical grounds (an exempted activity)*. For 2 weeks per month that employee is “on call” for maintenance work. On Wednesday night he/she is called out to perform emergency repair work. The call-out commences at 8.30p.m. and finishes at 11.30p.m. The employee’s entitlement to 11 hours consecutive rest is interrupted. Prior to the call-out the employee had received 3 hours rest and after the call-out he/she received 9.5 hours rest. In total the employee received 12.5 hours rest, therefore no further entitlement to rest arises as an exemption applies (see sections 2(7)(I) and 2(7)(II) of this Code).

If no exemption applied then the employee is entitled to the full 11 consecutive hours rest from the end of the call-out.

OMM 0000

As stated, she is agreeing to it.

She has the option to stop doing it.

But she doesn't want to stop, as she wants the EUR 50.

Seems a simple issue to me.

Either accept & continue, or stop.

Now if her employer were forcing her to do it, or not paying her for it, I'd have a completely different opinion.

The Specialist

This sounds like a very poor setup and is actually in breach of the Working Time act. If she is working 9-5, and then fielding calls at 1/2am this breaches the requirement for an uninterrupted 12 hours between end and start of shift. If they insist on making her do this out of hours work, then the day hours should be adjusted (something like 9-1 or 9-2 maximum if she is required to be "on call" overnight for the week).

Klopp

amcalester wrote: »

For €50 quid a fortnight and the lack of flexibility I’d just tell them I was no longer able to support these teams and ask that they make alternative arrangements to begin in 4 weeks.

I would agree with this approach.


When she takes holiday's and day off, who do they call, surley they some cover in place?


In a previous roll, when I was on call during the week, any call I got during the night, I was not required to be in the office until 8 hours from end of calls and I had the option of working from home, which was an agreement I had with my manager.

amcalester

granturismo wrote: »

I think shes getting paid €50 per night to be on call every 2nd week.

You could be right, the OP isn’t clear.

Don’t think it really matters, it’s not worth it if she can’t get to work safely because of it.

miamee

She should try to reach a compromise with them. For example, she could agree to be available for calls up to midnight but turns the phone off after that; she could ask them to cover the cost of a taxi to work on days when she has had a late night call; she could ask to do fewer nights of being on call. Alternatively she could tell them she can't manage the middle of the night calls any more and take the financial hit.

If it were me, I wouldn't be able to handle them at all, we get little enough rest or sleep these days without sleep being interrupted by a work call or having one ear open for the phone all night even on nights when it doesn't ring. It doesn't sound good for her health in the long run at all.

Wanderer78

nthclare wrote:

There's seriously something wrong with a lot of workplaces in Ireland.

Not just a problem here, common across the globe, they were trying to get a bill passed in the German parliament not too long ago, preventing employers from contacting employees outside of working hours, unsure if it was successful

antix80

If she's getting paid €50 a night for being on call with only a chance of a call that may last an hour, that's not a bad deal! Maybe someone else in the office would like that setup more than she does.

Squatman

antix80 wrote: »

If she's getting paid €50 a night for being on call with only a chance of a call that may last an hour, that's not a bad deal! Maybe someone else in the office would like that setup more than she does.

yea, and a lot of the calls should end like this.
"this is something that i need to be in the office to take care of", or this can wait till tomorrow!!!.. when that starts to be an issue, look for another job. sounds like faeces

Tefral

Didnt an employee successfully sue their company recently about answering emails late at night... might we worth looking up that case.

Your sister needs to stand her ground. No job is worth your health.

Give back the €50 and tell them that she isnt doing it anymore, or, take the €50 and put the foot down about the working from home.

c6ysaphjvqw41k

My husband does this. He's on call every evening and weekend and bank holidays. He gets paid a weekly rate for this no matter if he gets calls. When he gets a call he then gets an additional payment per hour on top of the weekly rate.
I'd say an average of 1 call per month across the year, but he's only had 1 so far this year. Over Easter he will probably get a few.
He starts work at 8am. If he gets a call in the middle of the night, he doesn't go to work in the morning and waits a few hours so he gets his 11 hours between shifts, as you have to by law. Most of the time if he gets a call he ends up just working the next day from home but starts later. He will still finish at his normal time and not have to stay late and make the hours up.
If he gets a call on a weekend or bank holiday, he gets the whole day back.
I believe they are very fair to him, only reason he continues to do it, as they keep telling him if you ever want to stop just tell us and someone else can take it over for a while.

UrbanFret

The Labour Court of Brussels referred the case to the Court of Justice of the European Union in Luxembourg in order to decide whether this stand-by time at home was to be considered working time.

In its decision dated 21 February 2018, the Court of Justice of the European Union ruled that Mr Matzak’s on-call time when not at his place of work constituted working time.

Indeed, in its ruling, the Court stated that “stand-by time which a worker spends at home with the duty to respond to calls from his employer within 8 minutes, very significantly restricting the opportunities for other activities, must be regarded as ‘working time’”.

In other words, if it is a worker’s duty to stay at home with the obligation to respond to his/her employer’s calls within such a short timeframe (in this case, eight minutes), then this is to be considered working time.


There's an avalanche coming. At least 2000 case waiting to be heard at the WRC. The first have already gone through and we are awaiting judgement.

LotharIngum

I relayed that information and she clarified this.
Yes its €50 per night.
She has 1 hour to respond to a call wherever she is.
I should point out that she can a does get calls any time from 5pm to 9am the next day.
She used to get 1 call a month but much more often.
There is only 1 other person in the office that could take the calls and she doesn't want to because its once you start doing it your aren't allowed to stop doing it.

Her problem is not taking the calls. She is happy to do it. Its the insistence on coming into the office for the 9am meetings which invariably discuss the calls so they want her there.

The other person doing the same job works from home 2 days per week due to an agreement she had with the company previous to their insistence that people not work from home anymore.

She is thinkin about just leaving but she was working towards a promotion for the last year and this is being held up as a stick to make her comply.

So if she does 9-5 then 1 - 3am is she by law not required to come into the office until 3am plus 11 hours? Even if she was allowed to work from home does she not start until 3am plus 11 hours?

killanena

LotharIngum wrote:

I relayed that information and she clarified this. Yes its €50 per night. She used to get 1 call a month but much more often. There is only 1 other person in the office that could take the calls and she doesn't want to because its once you start doing it your aren't allowed to stop doing it.

Unless she signed a contracted with a time frame there is absolutely no way they can force her to continue taking the calls for 50 euro a night.

whomitconcerns

So bottom line is she gets 500 extra a month to be on call for 10 nights. I could live with that.. Although it's not great.

But to have to be in an office for 9am afterwards... Nope...

Either change it or let them keep their money. H&S works probably have an issue also anyway.

LotharIngum

UrbanFret wrote: »

The Labour Court of Brussels referred the case to the Court of Justice of the European Union in Luxembourg in order to decide whether this stand-by time at home was to be considered working time.

In its decision dated 21 February 2018, the Court of Justice of the European Union ruled that Mr Matzak’s on-call time when not at his place of work constituted working time.

Indeed, in its ruling, the Court stated that “stand-by time which a worker spends at home with the duty to respond to calls from his employer within 8 minutes, very significantly restricting the opportunities for other activities, must be regarded as ‘working time’”.

In other words, if it is a worker’s duty to stay at home with the obligation to respond to his/her employer’s calls within such a short timeframe (in this case, eight minutes), then this is to be considered working time.


There's an avalanche coming. At least 2000 case waiting to be heard at the WRC. The first have already gone through and we are awaiting judgement.

This is very interesting.
So potentially anyone who is on call or has been for years could have to get back paid their normal hourly rate for just being on call. I bet companies are terrified because I know so many people who are on call and all they get is €x for being on call whether called or not. They cant even go to the cinema or for a pint. they have to be with 30 minutes to one hour of getting home to dial in or straight to their work.

Would an hour be a short time frame? To me it would.

LotharIngum

killanena wrote: »

Unless she signed a contracted with a time frame there is absolutely no way they can force her to continue taking the calls for 50 euro a night.

They pressure her in other ways

Tomw86

She needs to put the foot down - and also potentially start going to bed before midnight, but that's another argument altogether.

I would check with a company law solicitor for advice as they will be best placed and it will be money well spent. I would think she has grounds to at the very least work from home from 9am and at the very best not be in work until 8 hours from the end of the call ending.

If they are dangling a carrot of a promotion, then they need to provide a definite timeframe (in writing) for this, or she should call their bluff and just up and leave.

There is a reason so few people in the office want this arrangement. €500 before tax isn't really worth it that much. If it were me, I would look for an additional hourly rate every time I took a call - for €50 per night, plus €50 per hour every time she is on a call. As mentioned previously by a poster that her husband is on that arrangement and I actually think that is more than fair.

stargazer 68

Tomw86 wrote: »

She needs to put the foot down - and also potentially start going to bed before midnight, but that's another argument altogether.

To me it would make no difference what time you went to bed at - you would still be aware that the phone might ring and you then have to have an 'awake' conversation with someone to do with work. Can't possibly be getting a good night sleep any night.

UrbanFret

LotharIngum wrote: »

This is very interesting.
So potentially anyone who is on call or has been for years could have to get back paid their normal hourly rate for just being on call. I bet companies are terrified because I know so many people who are on call and all they get is €x for being on call whether called or not. They cant even go to the cinema or for a pint. they have to be with 30 minutes to one hour of getting home to dial in or straight to their work.

Would an hour be a short time frame? To me it would.

Time limit on back pay of 6 months . On call is on call. There's a judgement expected on this shortly. European law supercedes irish law as far as im aware.

Tomw86

Dovies wrote: »

To me it would make no difference what time you went to bed at - you would still be aware that the phone might ring and you then have to have an 'awake' conversation with someone to do with work. Can't possibly be getting a good night sleep any night.

Its another argument altogether like I said.

If she went to bed at 10.30/11 she would be getting at least 8 hours through til 7am when the OP stated she gets up for work the following day.

I personally don't think 7 hours is enough, especially with the fear of a potential phone call hanging over her.

upinsmoke

I work on call one week a month. I could not face it every second week. Your friend needs to have a chat with management saying it's not sustainable.

If it's a half hour job I still go in for nine. Couple of hours job id go in for 10.

Big difference doing it every second week than once a month though. For been on call once a month I get a 10 per cent on top of my yearly salary

youcancallmeal

Shepard Green Beech wrote: »

My husband does this. He's on call every evening and weekend and bank holidays. He gets paid a weekly rate for this no matter if he gets calls. When he gets a call he then gets an additional payment per hour on top of the weekly rate.
I'd say an average of 1 call per month across the year, but he's only had 1 so far this year. Over Easter he will probably get a few.
He starts work at 8am. If he gets a call in the middle of the night, he doesn't go to work in the morning and waits a few hours so he gets his 11 hours between shifts, as you have to by law. Most of the time if he gets a call he ends up just working the next day from home but starts later. He will still finish at his normal time and not have to stay late and make the hours up.
If he gets a call on a weekend or bank holiday, he gets the whole day back.
I believe they are very fair to him, only reason he continues to do it, as they keep telling him if you ever want to stop just tell us and someone else can take it over for a while.

In my experience of being 'on call' in the IT industry this is very much standard. Basically it pays well and you aren't expected in next morning depending on how long call is. The employer mentioned by OP sounds quite exploitative by paying the bare minimum and not being flexible on hours

yobr

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/executive-awarded-7-500-for-having-to-deal-with-late-night-emails-1.3584537

The judgement in this case should be of use to you.

LotharIngum

yobr wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/executive-awarded-7-500-for-having-to-deal-with-late-night-emails-1.3584537

The judgement in this case should be of use to you.

I don't think that counts though as she agreed to be called.

LotharIngum

Thanks for the input.

So today she had a talk with her HR department. It looks like they are of the opinion they can make her come in in the mornings.
No leeway at all.
Told her its part of her job now and if she didn't like it she could walk.
Shes going to think about it tonight.

The way I read all of the links here is that if you leave work at 5 and get home at 6, play with the kids etc you wouldn't normally be going to bed until 11 or 12 at night. So your "rest" is counted for those hours between 6 and bedtime. Then you get a phone call after about 2 hours sleep for 2 hours and cant get back to sleep after it or even if you do its for a couple of hours at most and you get up in the morning, pack the children off to the creche and travel into work.

You actually have had a couple of hours sleep/rest and would not normally be expecting to sleep at the other times but still the other times counts as rest for the employers purposes.

so 6 - 2am is 8 hours rest.
2am - 4am is Working is 2 hours
4am to 9am start time is another 5 hours.

You have had 13 hours rest tough luck. Even though because of the call times you actually have had no sleep.
So its allowed.

Im off on holiday in a few hours but Im going to try to convince her to just quit when I get home.
She shouldn't have to put up with that on the basis that its just taking the proverbial.

OMM 0000

Hang on, I'm super confused now.

I thought she was voluntarily doing the night calls for extra cash?

Now they're saying it's forced, and if she doesn't like it she needs to quit?

TeaBagMania

LotharIngum wrote: »

Told her its part of her job now and if she didn't like it she could walk.

yep, id say "bye" and walk the second they gave me that ultimatum

Tomw86

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Hang on, I'm super confused now.

I thought she was voluntarily doing the night calls for extra cash?

Now they're saying it's forced, and if she doesn't like it she needs to quit?

Yeah, if that is the case I'd get it in writing, walk and then have them up on constructive dismissal.

.......

LotharIngum wrote: »

Told her its part of her job now and if she didn't like it she could walk.

Perfect, tell her to get that in writing.

She has them over a barrel now. Tell her to email the minutes of what that meeting entailed to HR, explain that she wont be continuing the practice and sit back and wait for them to let her go.

Then off to a solicitor and a nice case of constructive dismissal.

ashes2014

If she loves her job and being on call was temporary then that might be workable.

Her time there may be over one way or the other-either she will get fed up and leave if they insist she keeps doing on call or they will push her out as she is not doing what they want her to do.

c6ysaphjvqw41k

youcancallmeal wrote: »

In my experience of being 'on call' in the IT industry this is very much standard. Basically it pays well and you aren't expected in next morning depending on how long call is. The employer mentioned by OP sounds quite exploitative by paying the bare minimum and not being flexible on hours

Yeah he's in IT, so it seems standard. Its also fair enough too and he can drop it when he likes.

Tomw86

....... wrote: »

Perfect, tell her to get that in writing.

She has them over a barrel now. Tell her to email the minutes of what that meeting entailed to HR, explain that she wont be continuing the practice and sit back and wait for them to let her go.

Then off to a solicitor and a nice case of constructive dismissal.

This is rock solid.

Is she minutes the meeting and gets HR to sign off on it, that will suffice as having it in writing.

loyatemu

€50 a night is not great for on-call, she should look to either get this increased or get an additional hourly rate for when she does get called, plus time off in lieu the next morning.

LotharIngum

I think she wants out of it rather than more money for it. She was sold a pup.
As we all know taking an employer to court is a big no no for your career in this country.
Shes more worried about her career. She was looking for that promotion and in her job if you have spent 2 years like she has in a company and are still at the same level then you move you have to do another two years min on the same level to get your promotion.
Its a bad situation to be moving without the promotion in the bag but its dangerous for her health to stay.
Im off on holidays so i'll check back in next week.
ive sent her the link to all your helpful advice. Thanks guys.