Has anyone done the switcharoo for taxing old tractor

Donald Trump

Suppose you have an old yard tractor. Hasn't been on the road or taxed in a few years but the off-road forms were not submitted.


My understanding is that a new owner could restart the tax without paying back-tax.


I think that you could transfer the ownership, tax it, transfer it back and not have to pay the back tax.


Has anyone done this? And can you do it in the course of a few days or would you have to keep it in the second name for a while? Wondering how it would affect insurance etc!

jake is right

Yes, this is quite "do-able", and you don't have to wait to re-register in your own name !

Donald Trump

jake is right wrote: »

Yes, this is quite "do-able", and you don't have to wait to re-register in your own name !

But suppose I have it insured. I transfer it to John, John taxes it an transfers it back. In the intervening week (suppose it takes a week), is it still insured if it isn't mine during that time? Will it invalidate the insurance if something happened later?


Any tax implications? Does money have to be transferred or just sign the forms? If money has to be transferred can it be like 5 Euro or would that have it's own tax implications?

Wildly Boaring

Technically

You would need to tell your insurer that John owns the tractor but that you still wish to insure as you have insurable interest in it.

Reality

You're taking the chance on the tractor with insurance for the time for shannon to post out logbook to John.

Donald Trump

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Technically

You would need to tell your insurer that John owns the tractor but that you still wish to insure as you have insurable interest in it.

Reality

You're taking the chance on the tractor with insurance for the time for shannon to post out logbook to John.

I'd be equally as worried as them coming back later to say it wasn't insured if something happened.


I insure in 1st April for a year. Transfer it to John on 1st May. He transfers it back 1st June. Say nothing to insurance. Something happens on 1st July. Insurance says "well your insurance policy automatically was stopped/voided when you sold it to John and you never took out a new one when you took it back"


So I'd imagine your suggestion of letting them know or asking them would be the way to go

Donald Trump

BTW, does it cost much to transfer the ownership? As in admin fees or anything like that?

Wildly Boaring

Donald Trump wrote: »

BTW, does it cost much to transfer the ownership? As in admin fees or anything like that?

Free

Justjens

Donald Trump wrote: »

Has anyone done this? And can you do it in the course of a few days or would you have to keep it in the second name for a while? Wondering how it would affect insurance etc!

Someone on the classic car forum (or Backroads) sold a car to himself without any issues.

feartuath

I sold my motorbike to my wife for a week or so bought it back again, then road taxed it again in my name.

Donald Trump

feartuath wrote: »

I sold my motorbike to my wife for a week or so bought it back again, then road taxed it again in my name.

Would have been funny if she didn't like you having a bike and sold it to someone else instead.............you'd want to trust her :pac:

Nekarsulm

Donald Trump wrote: »

But suppose I have it insured. I transfer it to John, John taxes it an transfers it back. In the intervening week (suppose it takes a week), is it still insured if it isn't mine during that time? Will it invalidate the insurance if something happened later?


Any tax implications? Does money have to be transferred or just sign the forms? If money has to be transferred can it be like 5 Euro or would that have it's own tax implications?

John will have to "sell" it back to you right away.
If he tries to tax it, he must show an insurance cert. showing that he is insured to drive it.

Ultimate Seduction

Nekarsulm wrote: »

John will have to "sell" it back to you right away.
If he tries to tax it, he must show an insurance cert. showing that he is insured to drive it.

He mustn't. He must provide an insurance policy number, 123456789 will suffice.

It's only a matter of time before they figure out this loophole, everyone at it. Availed of it myself a few times.

Wildly Boaring

feartuath wrote: »

I sold my motorbike to my wife for a week or so bought it back again, then road taxed it again in my name.

Gets past the insurance issue too. Insuring your wife's asset is all the same to insurer. Could just stay in wife's name really

Nekarsulm

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

He mustn't. He must provide an insurance policy number, 123456789 will suffice.

It's only a matter of time before they figure out this loophole, everyone at it. Availed of it myself a few times.

In our local tax office they have a sign up "first time taxing after change of ownership must provide insurance cert" etc etc.
They will examine it too, just giving a cert number won't wash.
Been that way for a couple of years now.

Ultimate Seduction

Nekarsulm wrote: »

In our local tax office they have a sign up "first time taxing after change of ownership must provide insurance cert" etc etc.
They will examine it too, just giving a cert number won't wash.
Been that way for a couple of years now.

I taxed a car for the first time around a month ago and did not need insurance cert, just filled in the policy number on the tor

Nekarsulm

Like the taxing of commercial vehicles, different Co Councils seem to apply different rules.

Justjens

Nekarsulm wrote: »

In our local tax office they have a sign up "first time taxing after change of ownership must provide insurance cert" etc etc.

If the tractor is not for road use just declare it 'off road' instead of taxing it.

Donald Trump

Justjens wrote: »

If the tractor is not for road use just declare it 'off road' instead of taxing it.

You can't do that retroactively any more unfortunately.

blackbox

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

He mustn't. He must provide an insurance policy number, 123456789 will suffice.

It's only a matter of time before they figure out this loophole, everyone at it. Availed of it myself a few times.

Entering a false insurance number could be considered fraudulent.

He doesn't need to insure it at all if he simply immediately declares it off road.

OP, if this tractor is only used in the yard there is no obligation to tax it.

Donald Trump

blackbox wrote: »

Entering a false insurance number could be considered fraudulent.

He doesn't need to insure it at all if he simply immediately declares it off road.

OP, if this tractor is only used in the yard there is no obligation to tax it.

Yes. That is why is has not been taxed in a few years - it has only been used in the yard.

However it would be useful to be able to have the choice to be able to tax it for the road for occasional use. Mainly during the summer. It's a pity it can't just be taxed for 3 or 6 months during the summer and then declared off road for the winter. That would be ideal!



In addition, I think that in a few years, it could be taxed at the vintage rate. (I assume you can do this for tractors too....just not sure how whether back-tax would have had to be paid on it then anyway.)


My question now is whether the second person would have to tax it? I had assumed that that would be the best way - for the temporary owner to tax it before transferring it back. Otherwise they might tell the original owner to feck off. But maybe it makes no difference. It would be handier to transfer it back and then tax it. Is there just a form to fill out to restart the tax? If it could be transferred, transferred back immediately and then re-taxed that would be handier overall.

Nekarsulm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Yes. That is why is has not been taxed in a few years - it has only been used in the yard.

However it would be useful to be able to have the choice to be able to tax it for the road for occasional use. Mainly during the summer. It's a pity it can't just be taxed for 3 or 6 months during the summer and then declared off road for the winter. That would be ideal!



In addition, I think that in a few years, it could be taxed at the vintage rate. (I assume you can do this for tractors too....just not sure how whether back-tax would have had to be paid on it then anyway.)


My question now is whether the second person would have to tax it? I had assumed that that would be the best way - for the temporary owner to tax it before transferring it back. Otherwise they might tell the original owner to feck off. But maybe it makes no difference. It would be handier to transfer it back and then tax it. Is there just a form to fill out to restart the tax? If it could be transferred, transferred back immediately and then re-taxed that would be handier overall.

You are over complicating this.
"Sell" it to your mother/brother/daughter/friend. Even sell it to yourself using your own address and your middle name.
As soon as the Reg. book comes in the post, transfer it back to yourself.
Now tax it.

Ultimate Seduction

blackbox wrote: »

Entering a false insurance number could be considered fraudulent.

He doesn't need to insure it at all if he simply immediately declares it off road.

OP, if this tractor is only used in the yard there is no obligation to tax it.

Well switching ownership to avaoid back tax is fraudulent too

Nekarsulm

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Well switching ownership to avaoid back tax is fraudulent too

Not fraudulent. Its the distinction between tax avoidance, and tax evasion.

If tractor has never been on a public road, no motor tax due.

If you have been running around the roads while untaxed, then back tax is due.

Ultimate Seduction

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Not fraudulent. Its the distinction between tax avoidance, and tax evasion.

If tractor has never been on a public road, no motor tax due.

If you have been running around the roads while untaxed, then back tax is due.

If it wasn't fraudulent you wouldn't have to change ownership.

Donald Trump

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

If it wasn't fraudulent you wouldn't have to change ownership.

No. It's not fraudulent.


Previously all you needed to do to not have to pay back-tax was make a retroactive declaration that it was off road for that time. If you had done that dishonestly then that would be fraudulent. This wouldn't be the case as it wasn't used on road for that time.



Switching the ownership is at worst described as a loophole. Not fraud. It's a win-win situation. State gets a bit more tax and the owner can use it on the road if he wants.


As an aside, as far as I am aware, you actually don't even need to have the vehicle taxed as long as you only using the road along your own land (assuming you own the title to the land under the road which is usually the case.)


In this case the machine would be rarely on the road anyway. There's a scraper on it for the winter. It's a grand little yoke for the Summer for turning hay or the likes of that. The only difference would be that the very odd time say that you'd take a bit of ground from a neighbour a mile away to make hay during the summer, you'd be able to tip up the road with the little yoke rather than putting a haybob on a 120HP 4wd.



Would you pay 5 years of back-tax to be able to do this? You would in your hole. You'd leave it in the yard and continue away with the big yoke for the few hours here or there. But you might pay the current years tax.

So the state gets a few quid and the environment is helped with less diesel burned (assuming engine is clean enough).

Nekarsulm

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

If it wasn't fraudulent you wouldn't have to change ownership.

If there was any other way to start taxing a tractor that may not have been on a public road for thirty or forty years ( as was the case up untill about 4 years ago) without paying 40 years back tax, there would be no need to jump through these hoops.

Ultimate Seduction

I agree lads I've done it myself to avoid back taxing my car a few times. I simply said you can put down 123456789 as your policy number when taxing it and someone told me that would be fraudulent.

Lano Lynn

what happens if a tractor was never registered and imported a few years back from NI never on road so no reg number ? does it have to be inspected prior to taxing?

148multi

Was an old boy beside me, he was stopped by the AGS turning on to the road outside his house.
Did him for no tax and he to back tax it for 13 years.

Donald Trump

148multi wrote: »

Was an old boy beside me, he was stopped by the AGS turning on to the road outside his house.
Did him for no tax and he to back tax it for 13 years.

It doesn't have to be taxed when used on the public road alongside your own property. (It is likely that he owns the land under the road....almost definitely would if he owns both sides of the road)



That said, that's just an idea I have in my own head for some reason. Not sure why. Someone else might corroborate!