Is a solicitor required for a PIAB claim?

Toots

Just wondering can someone in here shed some light on this.

A family member was injured in an RTA and is now planning to pursue a claim with the PIAB. The website states you don't need a solicitor, but then other people are saying he'd be mad not to have a solicitor.

If he does get a solicitor, can the costs be recovered from the other side? He's not really in a position financially to cover thousands of euro in fees.

Credit Checker Moose

No solicitor means a low ball offer. A solicitor provides added value to the process, it will ensure the person gets a reasonable value.

Solicitor fees are not recoverable via PIAB but that should not put off a person making an initial appointment with a solicitor?

Toots

Does it need to be a specific personal injury solicitor or can he use any solicitor?

4ensic15

Toots wrote: »

Does it need to be a specific personal injury solicitor or can he use any solicitor?

He can (in theory) use any solicitor. Many would not be interested. Some would be too expensive. The best thing to do is to get a personal recommendation.

Toots

Grand, I'll say to him to ask around and hopefully someone will know a good one that won't cost an arm and a leg!

hullaballoo

If only you knew someone you could ask...

p15574

Surely the whole point of the PIAB is to avoid having to use a solicitor, and reduce legal fees? Sure, the insurance company might make a lowball offer, but they can just ignore any offers and await the end of the PIAB process. A solicitor can then be employed if they're unhappy with the outcome.

I presume most people on here are solicitors though so maybe that's the reason for the above advice?

hullaballoo

How does someone with no experience or knowledge of the amounts of compensation payable identify a lowball offer?

How do they know if their injury attracts €10k or €100k or crucially, whether the level of compensation cannot be quantified at the point in time the PIAB assessment is given?

I'm a professional lawyer myself with plenty of experience in these matters and I would still pay for the advice of a solicitor if I was unfortunate enough to be in need of going to PIAB. Not least because if I'm wrong in advising myself I can't go anywhere whereas if the paid professional who advises me is wrong, I can talk to their insurers.

randomrb

I would have said aswell from my experience that there is actually not much of an additional cost to engage a solicitor before PIAB or after PIAB

runawaybishop

hullaballoo wrote: »

How does someone with no experience or knowledge of the amounts of compensation payable identify a lowball offer?

How do they know if their injury attracts €10k or €100k or crucially, whether the level of compensation cannot be quantified at the point in time the PIAB assessment is given?

I'm a professional lawyer myself with plenty of experience in these matters and I would still pay for the advice of a solicitor if I was unfortunate enough to be in need of going to PIAB. Not least because if I'm wrong in advising myself I can't go anywhere whereas if the paid professional who advises me is wrong, I can talk to their insurers.

Isn't there a book of quantum for this reason?

randomrb

runawaybishop wrote: »

Isn't there a book of quantum for this reason?

book of quantum doesnt cover pain and suffering or psychological damage.

p15574

randomrb wrote: »

book of quantum doesnt cover pain and suffering or psychological damage.

It does cover pain and suffering.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Toots wrote: »

Just wondering can someone in here shed some light on this.

A family member was injured in an RTA and is now planning to pursue a claim with the PIAB. The website states you don't need a solicitor, but then other people are saying he'd be mad not to have a solicitor.

If he does get a solicitor, can the costs be recovered from the other side? He's not really in a position financially to cover thousands of euro in fees.

Surely the family members insurance company will provide a solicitor who will then get costs awarded also?

Credit Checker Moose

PIAB does not award costs.

hullaballoo

runawaybishop wrote: »

Isn't there a book of quantum for this reason?

Good one.

The Book of Quantum is all but useless in the vast majority of cases.

Toots

hullaballoo wrote: »

How does someone with no experience or knowledge of the amounts of compensation payable identify a lowball offer?

How do they know if their injury attracts €10k or €100k or crucially, whether the level of compensation cannot be quantified at the point in time the PIAB assessment is given?

I'm a professional lawyer myself with plenty of experience in these matters and I would still pay for the advice of a solicitor if I was unfortunate enough to be in need of going to PIAB. Not least because if I'm wrong in advising myself I can't go anywhere whereas if the paid professional who advises me is wrong, I can talk to their insurers.

Pretty much this. I sat down and had a look at the PIAB book of quantum thing and there's such a huge variation in the amounts listed there, and also their rather ambiguous descriptions of injuries, it would be really hard to even have a rough figure in mind of what to expect.

Carmelo Narrow Bin wrote: »

Surely the family members insurance company will provide a solicitor who will then get costs awarded also?

He didn't go through his own insurance. Without going in to too much details for privacy reasons, they were in a multi-car pile up on a motorway. He and a couple of others were stopped at lights on the slip road off the motorway and another car came along and went in to the back of them all at full speed. He was the front car, so he was hit from behind but didn't go into anyone else, so he claimed off the insurance of the driver who caused the crash.

Is it possible for him to get his own insurance company to provide a solicitor, even if he didn't claim on his own insurance?

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

PIAB does not award costs.

This is something he's concerned about. Basically he's worried that if he engages a solicitor and the amount awarded ends up being very low, will the legal fees be greater than the sum awarded and he ends up even more out of pocket.

Eggs For Dinner

My disdain for the legal profession is well known. However, if I had a (genuine) claim, I would engage my own rather than dealing with the other party's legal team, knowing from experience what members of the profession are capable of

hullaballoo

We ain't got nothing on your lot.

Eggs For Dinner

hullaballoo wrote: »

We ain't got nothing on your lot.

Apologies on behalf of 'our lot' for standing up to you

hullaballoo

Could you repeat that? I can't hear you with the sound of all of my loose change jangling around in your pockets.

The brazen-faced lies from the insurance industry know no bounds at this stage. You're not standing up to anyone. You're attempting to cream as much profits as possible by squeezing absolutely everyone else and it's well you know it.

You're hiding behind the softest PR target imaginable by continuing to point the blame at lawyers but still failing to persuade the discerning reader.

€200,000,000.00+ in clear profit for just 3 companies and it's not enough for you.

It's utter filth.

Mr. Incognito

Toots wrote: »

Pretty much this. I sat down and had a look at the PIAB book of quantum thing and there's such a huge variation in the amounts listed there, and also their rather ambiguous descriptions of injuries, it would be really hard to even have a rough figure in mind of what to expect.


He didn't go through his own insurance. Without going in to too much details for privacy reasons, they were in a multi-car pile up on a motorway. He and a couple of others were stopped at lights on the slip road off the motorway and another car came along and went in to the back of them all at full speed. He was the front car, so he was hit from behind but didn't go into anyone else, so he claimed off the insurance of the driver who caused the crash.

Is it possible for him to get his own insurance company to provide a solicitor, even if he didn't claim on his own insurance?


This is something he's concerned about. Basically he's worried that if he engages a solicitor and the amount awarded ends up being very low, will the legal fees be greater than the sum awarded and he ends up even more out of pocket.

Most PI Solicitors take it on a no win no foal basis.

So there's no actual cost.

They will normally

- Get proper medicals done
- Contact all parties
- Draft PIAB Application
- Lodge it
- Lead negotiations with the insurance company and will get you a fair price and usually negotiate their fee with the insurance company also who will know what things costs in the legal world.

We are not allowed to advertise according the solicitors regulations or tout for business but any compent PI lawyer will take it on if its a meritorious case.

PGE1970

p15574 wrote: »

Surely the whole point of the PIAB is to avoid having to use a solicitor, and reduce legal fees?

I'm sure that there are videos on youtube on how to lay bricks but I wouldn't try to build my own conservatory.


It's like the old story about the woman who has a dodgy washing machine. Plumber come out, looks at it, fiddles with it for 5 minutes and fixes it.


"How much is that?" she says. "€80" says the plumber. "€80 for 5 minutes work?" she says.


"No Madam. €80 for 5 minutes work and 20 years experience."

mravaya

Having been in the position 10 yrs ago of making a claim through PIAB, I am glad I engaged a solicitor to make my case. Because their expertise was crucial and had I not had a solicitor batting for me I feel ~I would have been overwhelmed and most likely not got as much compensation as I did

Eggs For Dinner

hullaballoo wrote: »

The brazen-faced lies from the insurance industry know no bounds at this stage. You're not standing up to anyone. You're attempting to cream as much profits as possible by squeezing absolutely everyone else and it's well you know it.

.

Until you concede that the legal profession is a significant contributor to the problem, every bit as much as insurers (something I have stated on numerous occasions), there is no point in debating this with you.

As for your "utter filth" comment, I take it you were directing that at the insurance industry rather than me personally as I would expect better from a moderator

billcullen1

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Until you concede that the legal profession is a significant contributor to the problem, every bit as much as insurers (something I have stated on numerous occasions), there is no point in debating this with you.

As for your "utter filth" comment, I take it you were directing that at the insurance industry rather than me personally as I would expect better from a moderator

Do you work in the legal profession ?

angel eyes 2012

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Most PI Solicitors take it on a no win no foal basis.

So there's no actual cost.

They will normally

- Get proper medicals done
- Contact all parties
- Draft PIAB Application
- Lodge it
- Lead negotiations with the insurance company and will get you a fair price and usually negotiate their fee with the insurance company also who will know what things costs in the legal world.

We are not allowed to advertise according the solicitors regulations or tout for business but any compent PI lawyer will take it on if its a meritorious case.

Most of these processes are required to be completed by going through the Piab process anyway. Op, if I was genuinely injured and contemplated a PI claim, I would go it alone, despite what the legal profession would have you believe. It's no more complicated than processing an income tax return yourself. It's an administrative process that requires some effort - it's not like a high court commercial case the way some solicitors would maintain. If either party reject the assessment then your friend will require representation if they want to issue court proceedings. I'd suggest contacting piab and take it from there.

JustAThought

I'm in the same quandry. Multiplehosputal appointments, legitimate injury & no clear idea of how to proceed. Part if me tells me if im this confused and anxious now how messy will it getlater if I dont know what I'm at. The PICB site is loose and clear but has been praised by sll around for reducing costs to the claimant & making it easier. Yet a family member who had a (high court injury ) claim rejected 3 offers at the steps of the court & ended up doing (allegedly) well on their injury claim ( awarded by the judge for horrific life changing injuries). Their case took years and was a big emotional messfor them -I cant have seen them surviving without the support of theirlegal and medical team nor the negotiations on the steps to have been so adamant in repeated refusals without them being so legally sure of their ground. . BUT -they had to put a lot of cash payments upfront - independemt medical specialists, experts flown in from the uk as no hse doctor could commit to testifyin against their bosses and employer, train fares (first class ffs) for solicitors and legal team and their expenses pwyrol costs and lunches/hotels - not to mention administration snd paperwork charges- (legal document) stamps etc : and a lot of this was up front and then in staged (negotiated) payments as they went along. The injuries were life changing and horrific but the court case and pressure wasn't much better and they struggled hugely financially because of it -two thousand here, three thousand there - paying the mortgage with one salary out of action etc.

I really dont know what to do myself but know from expeeience that solicitors are a poisined chalice at least 50% of the time & even with everything right behind yiu , that you can win and be rewarded and then have to draw teeth toget the award paid or go back to court to make them pay -or shrug off your losses and get in with your life. I'm leaning on asking for financial advice re PIAB as it can only be a good investment but the usual nonsense of not being able to get a trusted recommendation or know who you are dealing with or what actual experience they have leaves the victim even more disempowered and victimised. Its hard to know & being at the mercy and whim of charletans and an industry bent on self protection is no solace.

As regarding trusting the car insurance company you are claiming off for payment advice or fairness -em -NO. Does your own insurance have a free (any type of legal advice service? My old var insurance had. My old health policy also had for work issues (bizzarely).

randomrb

I really dont know what to do myself but know from expeeience that solicitors are a poisined chalice at least 50% of the time & even with everything right behind yiu , that you can win and be rewarded and then have to draw teeth toget the award paid or go back to court to make them pay -or shrug off your losses and get in with your life.

The one thing any good solicitor should advise you on prior to a leagl action is whether the target is a mark or not. If it is not a big company, semi state body or insurance company then often they will advise you not to proceed. They know better than anyone where the money is

Mr. Incognito

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Most of these processes are required to be completed by going through the Piab process anyway. Op, if I was genuinely injured and contemplated a PI claim, I would go it alone, despite what the legal profession would have you believe. It's no more complicated than processing an income tax return yourself. It's an administrative process that requires some effort - it's not like a high court commercial case the way some solicitors would maintain. If either party reject the assessment then your friend will require representation if they want to issue court proceedings. I'd suggest contacting piab and take it from there.

I have acted for insurers and against.

I can tell you from experience most insurance companies will not offer what the claim is worth at PIAB stage.

If you are unrepresented they will buy your claim off for a lot less than its worth.

That's the real nature of PIAB. It suits the insurance companies by keeping costs low.

Without a solicitor you think you got a great deal because you have no experience and dont appreciate the nuances

But that's only my 2 cent.

Work away yourself.

p15574

So as I've said above, basically just ensure you complete the PIAB process before thinking of contacting a solicitor, ignoring any contact from the insurance company. Going legal prior to this is part of the reason insurance policies are so expensive.

Mr. Incognito

p15574 wrote: »

So as I've said above, basically just ensure you complete the PIAB process before thinking of contacting a solicitor, ignoring any contact from the insurance company. Going legal prior to this is part of the reason insurance policies are so expensive.

What? You dont get your costs for PIAB. Most solicitors write off the costs of PIAB.

If you screw it up at PIAB stage as often happens there is no cure. You cannot fix it after.

Get a solicitor BEFORE Piab to make sure it is done right not AFTER when it might be too late.

The reason insurance is so expensive is lack of competition goughing the Irish market.

There's a reason Quinn were so successful.

p15574

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

What? You dont get your costs for PIAB.

It only costs €45 to lodge a claim, which you should get back at the end.

Mr. Incognito

p15574 wrote: »

It only costs €45 to lodge a claim, which you should get back at the end.

Costs you 100% of your claim if you lodge it outside of the Statute.

I was referring to legal costs. You dont recover legal costs in PIAB

I have to say this thread is a prime example of the danger of a lack of knowledge around the process.

You are paying for experience.

p15574

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I was referring to legal costs. You dont recover legal costs in PIAB

But if you don't engage a solicitor there are no legal costs surely?

Mr. Incognito

p15574 wrote: »

But if you don't engage a solicitor there are no legal costs surely?

I think we are going in circles here.

I invite you to read the thread again.

Credit Checker Moose

It could potentially cost you your entire claim.

Would you wire your own house based on a few youtube videos? Do your own surgery? Leave it to the professionals.

Squatter

hullaballoo wrote: »

€200,000,000.00+ in clear profit for just 3 companies and it's not enough for you.

It's utter filth.

What percentage of the combined turnover of the three insurance companies does that €200,000,000 represent?

What percentage of the overall total profit came from the three companies' car insurance business.

Because, unless you can answer those two questions, you're ranting through your well-padded posterior.

angel eyes 2012

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I have acted for insurers and against.

I can tell you from experience most insurance companies will not offer what the claim is worth at PIAB stage.

If you are unrepresented they will buy your claim off for a lot less than its worth.

That's the real nature of PIAB. It suits the insurance companies by keeping costs low.

Without a solicitor you think you got a great deal because you have no experience and dont appreciate the nuances

But that's only my 2 cent.

Work away yourself.

Unrepresented claimants have gone through the piab process after rejecting initial settlement offers from the insurer and have accepted the independent Piab offer happy in the knowledge that they are sufficiently compensated in a faster time than the court process.

If I was a claimant, I would also be happy in the knowledge that ok perhaps I could have made more compo through the courts, but morally a fair offer of compensation is more sustainable for businesses and the overall economy, than being greedy and looking for excessive payouts for moderate soft tissue injuries. It would also potentially free up courts for more important litigation like medical negligence and other areas of law, family law etc.

Solicitors are agents at the end of the day, it's not that long ago that people wouldn't book a holiday without an agent, purchase insurance or a mortgage without a broker. I appreciate that expertise is essential in complex, legal matters but the public are increasingly becoming more educated and self-sufficient and the legal profession will have to adapt to this changing reality.

Eggs For Dinner

Refreshing aspect

blueythebear

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Solicitors are agents at the end of the day, it's not that long ago that people wouldn't book a holiday without an agent, purchase insurance or a mortgage without a broker. I appreciate that expertise is essential in complex, legal matters but the public are increasingly becoming more educated and self-sufficient and the legal profession will have to adapt to this changing reality.

That is all well and good in theory but the old saying of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing applies equally. Day in day out, court lists are clogged by lay litigants who listened to some pub lawyer. They waste the courts time and inevitably make a mess of their case.

People who educate themselves in this fashion do not generally know their own limitations and tend to believe their own hype.

I personally would use a solicitor for a personal injury case if I ever was unfortunate enough to have one. Every time. It's not a case of maximising your pay out, it's more making sure you're compensated adequately. That includes monies you may have lost out on or out of pocket expenses or future losses. There are a lot of heads of damages to cover in a claim

4ensic15

It is very ill advised not to use an insurance broker when effecting a policy of insurance. Quite often people do not realise they do not have proper cover or that when they have a claim that they are getting the proper payment. As for a personal injury claim, how can the lay litigant know what "fair compensation" is. Just because they are happy with it does not mean it is fair.

Sono

All a solicitor cares about in the whole process is their costs, they could not give 2 hoots what their client gets.

some will reject PIAB awards and issue proceedings in order to increase costs and usually settle in the law library, it’s all a game and a rotten one at that.

So if it were me I wouldn’t bother with a solicitor, they add costs to the process which are not necessary

_Brian

I went through a protracted complicated case over five years.

My advice is get a good solicitor for PIAB.

The insurance company will have a legal team working against you on their side.

I know it’s not how it’s intended but not having a solicitor will disadvantage you.

Sono

_Brian wrote: »

I went through a protracted complicated case over five years.

My advice is get a good solicitor for PIAB.

The insurance company will have a legal team working against you on their side.

I know it’s not how it’s intended but not having a solicitor will disadvantage you.

It absolutely won’t.

randomrb

Sono wrote: »

It absolutely won’t.

what are you basing this on?

Sono

randomrb wrote: »

what are you basing this on?

Every case is different, some cases it would be beneficial to have a legal representative and others it is simply lining their pockets for something you could manage yourself.

It is not simply a case of you are injured run to a solicitor but that is what they would like you to do.

Eggs For Dinner

4ensic15 wrote: »

It is very ill advised not to use an insurance broker when effecting a policy of insurance. Quite often people do not realise they do not have proper cover or that when they have a claim that they are getting the proper payment. As for a personal injury claim, how can the lay litigant know what "fair compensation" is. Just because they are happy with it does not mean it is fair.

You make a valid point regarding insurance and the use of brokers. However, as more and more people arrange their cover directly with insurers, the more they are becoming knowledgeable about the process and cover. In turn, insurers are making it more user friendly to deal direct. This does away with the need to pay commissions and fees to brokers for something you can do yourself.

Therefore for standard situations, it can be just as easy to conduct both insurance and legal matters personally. Use professionals for more complicated scenarios. A PIAB application is NOT complicated. You can decide what route to take after they have assessed your case

billcullen1

Sono wrote: »

Every case is different, some cases it would be beneficial to have a legal representative and others it is simply lining their pockets for something you could manage yourself.

It is not simply a case of you are injured run to a solicitor but that is what they would like you to do.

It depends on the other party whether they co-operate

4ensic15

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

You make a valid point regarding insurance and the use of brokers. However, as more and more people arrange their cover directly with insurers, the more they are becoming knowledgeable about the process and cover. In turn, insurers are making it more user friendly to deal direct. This does away with the need to pay commissions and fees to brokers for something you can do yourself.

Therefore for standard situations, it can be just as easy to conduct both insurance and legal matters personally. Use professionals for more complicated scenarios. A PIAB application is NOT complicated. You can decide what route to take after they have assessed your case

Arranging insurance is one thing, dealing with a clai9m is another. may people can click buttons on a screen. Many arrange cover frequently but would have little or ne experience of the claims process. Not using a broker is very much a case of cent wise, euro foolish. As for PIAB, people can fill in forms themselves but they will have no experience of valuing a claim of dealing with defendants. Simple mistakes can be ruinous. Again it is cent wise and euro foolish.

Eggs For Dinner

So should we scrap the PIAB process altogether?

billcullen1

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

So should we scrap the PIAB process altogether?

good question ?