Work Expenses

bigmi

Hi all,

Just started at a new job, just looking for people to clarify something for me so I know the world isn’t gone completely mad.

A good friend of mine is also working at the company and we do quite a bit of traveling.

He’s told me he edits and doctors all his online receipts. Which doesn’t seem to make any sense to me. He’s suggesting I do it also now as he’s covered a lot of the same business trips I’m doing and his will look out of place of mine are for much less. How is this even possible? Surely it’s not as easy as editing and that our finance department would be cross checking these receipts.

davegilly

bigmi wrote: »

Hi all,

Just started at a new job, just looking for people to clarify something for me so I know the world isn’t gone completely mad.

A good friend of mine is also working at the company and we do quite a bit of traveling.

He’s told me he edits and doctors all his online receipts. Which doesn’t seem to make any sense to me. He’s suggesting I do it also now as he’s covered a lot of the same business trips I’m doing and his will look out of place of mine are for much less. How is this even possible? Surely it’s not as easy as editing and that our finance department would be cross checking these receipts.

If he's using his own credit card then it's simple to edit the card statements but why would you bother, how much extra could he really get for all the hassle and threat of job expulsion involved?

What an idiot your friend is.

The correct answer is to tell your friend that you're not doing what he's doing, use the excuse of being new or whatever. It's likely your friendship might suffer.

What an idiot your friend is though.

sidcon

bigmi wrote: »

Hi all,

Just started at a new job, just looking for people to clarify something for me so I know the world isn’t gone completely mad.

A good friend of mine is also working at the company and we do quite a bit of traveling.

He’s told me he edits and doctors all his online receipts. Which doesn’t seem to make any sense to me. He’s suggesting I do it also now as he’s covered a lot of the same business trips I’m doing and his will look out of place of mine are for much less. How is this even possible? Surely it’s not as easy as editing and that our finance department would be cross checking these receipts.

I would seriously doubt anyone is cross checking receipts, milage is easy to check so yes this would be checked. However editing receipts is fraud, most companies would have fraud down as gross misconduct which is almost always ending in dismissal.
Just claim for your entitlement and let your friend worry about his.

dulpit

davegilly wrote: »

If he's using his own credit card then it's simple to edit the card statements but why would you bother, how much extra could he really get for all the hassle and threat of job expulsion involved?

What an idiot your friend is.

The correct answer is to tell your friend that you're not doing what he's doing, use the excuse of being new or whatever. It's likely your friendship might suffer.

What an idiot your friend is though.

This.

Our place has you pay for your expenses up front and you claim them back. Technically it'd be very easy to manipulate this to my benefit, but not worth it if caught.

Don't do it OP.

L'prof

As above, just tell your friend you’re not comfortable doing it as it’s fraud. If he’s so worried about getting caught out because you both have similar trips then tell him not to doctor those particular trips

dubrov

So he wants you to commit fraud to help him continue to commit fraud.
He is obviously brash if he is so open about it so the chances are he will get caught.

I wouldn't have anything to do with it.

twowheelsonly

Lose a €50k* job for the sake of claiming 10 or 20 quid. Very clever. Depending on what line of work you're in that can follow you. Best of luck with getting another job in the same industry when you're known as 'the fella that got caught fiddling expenses'




(* or whatever the wage is....)

AmberGold

I’ve seen lads sacked out of €100k + a year jobs for submitting fictitious expenses. Would you steal from your local retailer, what’s the difference with your employer.

Wabbit Ears

The same guy who tells you he edits his expenses will hang you out to dry if he's ever caught.

In general best to discreetly distance yourself from him in as much as the environment allows.

bigmi

I’ve no intention of doing the same.

I just thought that the VAT receipt number would be cross checked. So do most companies basically take the receipts at face value? Seems bizarre and really open to manipulation

jimmii

bigmi wrote: »

I’ve no intention of doing the same.

I just thought that the VAT receipt number would be cross checked. So do most companies basically take the receipts at face value.

Most do because they trust the people they work with. Something like this could get a lot more people than just the person doing it in trouble if it emerged during an audit.

Now you just have to decide whether you have an obligation to tell your employer of another employees fraud against the company. When they get caught I wouldn't be surprised if they say you knew about it too.

bigmi

jimmii wrote: »

Most do because they trust the people they work with. Something like this could get a lot more people than just the person doing it in trouble if it emerged during an audit.

Now you just have to decide whether you have an obligation to tell your employer of another employees fraud against the company. When they get caught I wouldn't be surprised if they say you knew about it too.

I’m going to completely ignore that it’s happening. It’s wrong and shocking form but I’m only in the door and the best thing I can do is keep my head down and do my job to the best of my ability.

I’m just shocked that it’s so easy to do it.

somesoldiers

What is he changing exactly, altering the price of meals for example, most places have prices and menus available on line. All it takes is the merest hint and his whole scam will come thumbing down and he will be out in his ear - as others have said stay well away

jimmii

bigmi wrote: »

I’m going to completely ignore that it’s happening. It’s wrong and shocking form but I’m only in the door and the best thing I can do is keep my head down and do my job to the best of my ability.

I’m just shocked that it’s so easy to do it.

For larger companies the admin involved in checking everything would be huge. I could quite easily so the same but theres no way I would and theres often expenses I don't claim at all. This colleague has put you in an incredibly difficult spot just by telling you they have got you involved if they are treating it so casually could mean it's pretty wide spread. Do you become an enabler for their behaviour or whistle blower not fun either way really. Do you have a rough idea of how much extra they are likely to be claiming a year? I'd tell them theres no way you'll be doing the same and it's up to them what they do with their expenses and that you assume they were just testing you.

Mrs OBumble

jimmii wrote: »

Now you just have to decide whether you have an obligation to tell your employer of another employees fraud against the company. When they get caught I wouldn't be surprised if they say you knew about it too.

Be careful.

Right now you have no evidence. All you know is what someone says they do it. You cannot be sure what he's really submitting.

I would make sure I continued to have no concrete evidence.

AndrewJRenko

There's a chance that they know well what your mate is up to, with all the details on a file in someone's drawer until they day comes that they want to get rid of him for whatever reason.

jimmii

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Be careful.

Right now you have no evidence. All you know is what someone says they do it. You cannot be sure what he's really submitting.

I would make sure I continued to have no concrete evidence.

All you would be doing is reporting what you've been told not actually making an accusation. If the company did things properly the employee would be none the wiser until they then found some evidence if there was any. Sometimes you do get people who test the newbie so this could be one of those times so as you say the most convenient thing is to continue to have no evidence to justify feeling like there is no obligation to report it. I think if it got to the stage where you seen a receipt for €X and then saw their expenses claim for 50% more then you do have to say something. Its theft from the company at the end of the day and if they pay bonuses linked to profits that employee is taking a little bit out of everyone's pockets.

dartboardio

Explain it then. What does he do that he claims is so easy?

Charles Ingles

You're morally obliged to tell your employer.
Your friend has made you a coconspirator you could be sacked with him or arrested

dudara

Falsifying expenses is gross misconduct and would have you out the door immediately in most places. It’s also theft.

If you work for a company that recharges those expenses to client, it’s doubly worse, as the client is being overcharged and such behaviour could destroy a client relationship. I approve multiple expenses claims on a weekly basis for different team members, and it’s part of my responsibility to mke sure that the claims are correct. I know that Finance will also doublecheck down the line.

My advice, focus on doing your own expenses correctly. Know your company’s expense policy and make sure that you claim for everything that you’re entitled to, but no more. Let your colleague run his own risk.

bigmi

From the conversation what I think he is doing is claiming extra for meals etc, saying he ate something more expensive than what he did eat. He also mentioned when he’s parking for a few days at a time, he’ll usually find the cheapest car park and then claim he parked in the most expensive one.

I’m not sure how he’s falsifying the documents and it doesn’t even make sense to me. The receipts he’s providing would be VAT receipts with the companies VAT number on them also. Would it not be possible to cross check these ? I always assumed that’s why the companies provided their VAT numbers on the bottom of the receipts

jimmii

Do you submit the receipts electronically? If imagine it's just a photoshop job not hard to do just change a few 1s to 2s etc.

The companies themselves are unlikely to check things like this other than rudimentary checks on the totals added up etc. Their needs to be a record of the vat number for vatable expenses but theres no cross check the admin would just be too much work to expect that to be the case.

An article went up on BBC this week about people selling completely fictitious invoices for fraudulent vat claims and for using on self assessment that people have been apparently been able to get away with using so you can imagine how much easier it is to get away with exaggerated ones.

Normally this sort of thing gets discovered by the finance department when one person is claiming way more than another for a similar work schedule and then dealt with internally. It's still hard for them to notice unless it's a relatively small company and person processing the expenses is doing yours and his at the same time and also knows you were on the same or similar trips.

Jim2007

bigmi wrote: »

Hi all,

Just started at a new job, just looking for people to clarify something for me so I know the world isn’t gone completely mad.

A good friend of mine is also working at the company and we do quite a bit of traveling.

He’s told me he edits and doctors all his online receipts. Which doesn’t seem to make any sense to me. He’s suggesting I do it also now as he’s covered a lot of the same business trips I’m doing and his will look out of place of mine are for much less. How is this even possible? Surely it’s not as easy as editing and that our finance department would be cross checking these receipts.

First of all anyone who asks you to lie for them and commit fraud is not a friend, they are just using you. And you would be well advised to distance yourself from them as much as possible.

As for being caught, I can tell you from experience we of course know it is going on, but usually the amounts are too small to make it worth while checking everyone. Instead random checks are done from time to time by the company and by the external auditors. We just pick out random people or team leads and check everything for a particular period - request the original documents, call up hotels etc to check invoices, check price lists etc... Now days of course it is also possible to run various software programs over the claims to identify anomalies, which is what your so called friend is worried about.

One case I was working on involved the head of IT security. He did not actually edit or doctor any documents, instead each January he took the expenses from the previous January and resubmitted them, with the excuse that people had made a mistake in the entering the new year on the invoice. Of course his January expenses was always substantial higher than other months, that is what got our attention. A senior career ruined plus 18 months prison time and all for a couple of 1000 in expenses.

Odelay

Mr.S wrote: »

No one will cross reference the VAT receipt as it would mean hours of extra work for the employer. If his charges are in line with the company expense policy (eg daily charges under X amount, no alcohol etc) then it would be rare to look into it further.

Is it really worth the risk and effort though? All it takes is one person in finance or accounting to notice a charge is off and you're done.

Like can you imagine sitting down in your free time to doctor receipts and credit card statements!? :rolleyes: And surely they are just slightly increasing the prices to make it seem believable, so it can hardly bring in a lot extra?

Would there be a chance of an audit sampling some expenses?

IAMAMORON

Charles Ingles wrote: »

You're morally obliged to tell your employer.
Your friend has made you a coconspirator you could be sacked with him or arrested

Massively do not do this, it will just cause you hassle. You will never be obliged to make anyone aware of this, it is not your responsibility.

However, this colleague should not be trusted, s/he is not your friend. Only crap friends try to fudge their misdoings with other people.

Do not under any circumstances doctor or change your expenses. Your collegues deviancy and pathetic greediness is their problem, do not make it yours. Just get on with doing your job and claim your expenses as you see fit.

TrustedApple

My own job,

I need to do line by line and copy of what I spent of my company card and so on.

I can use my own card and claim back again I need to. Provide all the proof otherwise won't be paid.

I had a issue with a train ticket before where I had it as two items and not 4 as requested as there was transfer of train station in Dublin and it was refused before of that so had to ré do everything

OMM 0000

bigmi wrote: »

He’s told me he edits and doctors all his online receipts. Which doesn’t seem to make any sense to me. He’s suggesting I do it also now as he’s covered a lot of the same business trips I’m doing and his will look out of place of mine are for much less.

Don't do it.

You would be committing fraud to help cover up your friend's fraud.

If this was in a movie, you'd be shouting at the screen saying DON'T DO IT.

seamus

bigmi wrote: »

I’m not sure how he’s falsifying the documents and it doesn’t even make sense to me. The receipts he’s providing would be VAT receipts with the companies VAT number on them also. Would it not be possible to cross check these ? I always assumed that’s why the companies provided their VAT numbers on the bottom of the receipts

You can't cross-check VAT receipts. There is no way for a purchaser to take the VAT number and find out what actual VAT was paid on an expense. Not without calling up the supplier and asking them to look at their invoices. Which nobody is going to do on a regular basis.

The purpose of the VAT number is to prove that the supplier is entitled/required to charge VAT, and thus that the purchaser is correct to reclaim the VAT on it.

If a receipt has no VAT # on it, then the purchaser is not entitled to reclaim VAT on it.

There is an implication for the employer here; in the event of an audit, Revenue might find that the company has underdeclared on their VAT declarations because this individual has been overclaiming VAT on his expenses. The sums are likely to be low unless he's incurring tens of thousands in expenses per year. Over time though it can build up, and a notable discrepancy in one year may lead Revenue to carry out a much wider audit.

Sir Ophiuchus

Your friend is an absolute idiot and heading for a fall.

You need to be absolutely sure everything *you* are submitting is 100% in line with policy.

Actually, if I were you, I'd say absolutely nothing about your friend but I would ask an experienced member of staff to help you with your first expense claim. Say you're anxious about it because you're new and you don't want to make an error or over/underclaim. Corporate travel and expenses policies are often complicated, and it's very normal for people to ask for help the first few times.

This will (a) reassure people you are conscientious and (b) give you excellent cover if - when - your friend gets caught and suspicion falls on people who were taking the same business trips.