Issues with return of deposit

JustMe,K · 28-03-2019 12:34pm #1

So I have moved out of my rented property and the (large, 'professional', well known) landlord is refusing to return my deposit until I provide proof from my energy provider that I have closed my account, a copy of the final bill and proof pf payment. I had my move out inspection a few days ago, and there were no issues (arguably, the property was cleaner than when I took it on). Despite my view that this is unlawful and completely at odds with GDPR they are insistent on receiving the information and I suspect they are more than aware that raising a dispute over this with RTB will take up to 16 weeks. I have asked that they provide me with details of the legislation which allows them to withhold my deposit pending receipt of the above details, however they keep dodging the question - does anyone know if I am right or if they are right?

It's not as simple as just giving them what they want, as my energy supplier states it can take up to 10 days to produce the final bill and close the account.

amcalester · 28-03-2019 12:37pm

Absolutely none of their business, just open the dispute now and then you can close it if you get the deposit back.

GGTrek · 28-03-2019 1:40pm

amcalester wrote: »

Absolutely none of their business, just open the dispute now and then you can close it if you get the deposit back.

It is absolutely the landlord business to know if tenant has paid the utility bills as stated in the tenancy agreement. I had a tenant whose tenancy was terminated at the RTB because (among a lot of other ... he was doing) he was hiding that he was not paying the electricity bills (even though he was paying rent). When the electricity provider called me to say that they were cutting supply in a month time if outstanding bill of almost 600 eur was not going to be paid (and to reconnect I had to pay the fees) I started the dispute. The OP would be well advised to negotiate a partial return of the deposit now and the remaining part (a reconnection fee is approximately 100 eur) can be paid when the OP proves he/she has paid the last bill.

Forgot to say, the GPDR does not apply in this case since the showing of the data is necessary to comply with a business obligation. Let's please not abuse GPDR. I also suggest the OP to read Section 16(a)(ii) of the RTA 2004-2016:
"(ii) where the lease or tenancy agreement provides that any charges or taxes are payable by the tenant, pay those charges or taxes in accordance with the lease or tenancy agreement (unless provision to that effect in the lease or tenancy agreement is unlawful or contravenes any other enactment),"

amcalester · 28-03-2019 1:57pm

GGTrek wrote: »

It is absolutely the landlord business to know if tenant has paid the utility bills as stated in the tenancy agreement. I had a tenant whose tenancy was terminated at the RTB because (among a lot of other ... he was doing) he was hiding that he was not paying the electricity bills (even though he was paying rent). When the electricity provider called me to say that they were cutting supply in a month time if outstanding bill of almost 600 eur was not going to be paid (and to reconnect I had to pay the fees) I started the dispute. The OP would be well advised to negotiate a partial return of the deposit now and the remaining part (a reconnection fee is approximately 100 eur) can be paid when the OP proves he/she has paid the last bill.

Forgot to say, the GPDR does not apply in this case since the showing of the data is necessary to comply with a business obligation. Let's please not abuse GPDR. I also suggest the OP to read Section 16(a)(ii) of the RTA 2004-2016:
"(ii) where the lease or tenancy agreement provides that any charges or taxes are payable by the tenant, pay those charges or taxes in accordance with the lease or tenancy agreement (unless provision to that effect in the lease or tenancy agreement is unlawful or contravenes any other enactment),"

That applies to charges owed to the landlord, gas or electricity isn't a charge and is none of the landlords business if it is paid or not.

The debt owed by the tenant isn't recoverable from the landlord, it might make life a bit more difficult for him/her but that's it.

And no harm in seeing that the RTB have to say

If the tenant owes money for utility bills, such as gas or electricity, and the utility bill is in the landlord’s name, the landlord may withhold part or all of the deposit to cover these costs. The tenant should always retain a copy of the bills to ensure that payment is applicable to what is being owed

Unless the bills are in the landlord's name then the deposit should be returned.

Claw Hammer · 28-03-2019 2:09pm

kcdiom wrote: »

So I have moved out of my rented property and the (large, 'professional', well known) landlord is refusing to return my deposit until I provide proof from my energy provider that I have closed my account, a copy of the final bill and proof pf payment.

Either you paid the bill or you didn't. Why can the account not be transferred into the landlords name?

....... · 28-03-2019 2:20pm

The landlord is not entitled to this information if the bill was in your name.

Open a dispute.

....... · 28-03-2019 2:21pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Either you paid the bill or you didn't. Why can the account not be transferred into the landlords name?

You cannot transfer a bill into someone elses name. You can only close your own account.

Claw Hammer · 28-03-2019 2:30pm

....... wrote: »

You cannot transfer a bill into someone elses name. You can only close your own account.

transferring of accounts happens all the time. Usually on the final inspection the meters are read and the suppliers are contacted by phone with the current reading and the name of the new account holder.

beauf · 28-03-2019 2:30pm

This is an issue because the Utility company will try get any amounts outstanding from the LL if they can't get it from the tenant.

The LL won't be able to turn back on the supply unless its settled.

There's been lots of threads about the supply changing the account to a different person (LL) without their consent.

JustMe,K · 28-03-2019 3:06pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Either you paid the bill or you didn't. Why can the account not be transferred into the landlords name?

I am in credit on my electricity account with BG, as of this date I have no bill to pay because there has not yet been a bill generated. BG are telling me this will take 10 days (presumably working days, so 2 weeks). The meter readings were provided by the LL as I had no access to the meter boxes, and then submitted to BG by me. They will not confirm in writing that the account has been closed in my name until the bill is generated, however its in my name, not the LLs.

The LL needs to take on the account, I can't just transfer it into their name even though I have provided their details to BG, along with my forwarding address which the LL also has. I was unaware that there is any possibility the utility company could chase the LL for bills outstanding in my name rather than theirs (again, there is not yet a bill as they have not produced it).

JustMe,K · 28-03-2019 3:09pm

....... wrote: »

The landlord is not entitled to this information if the bill was in your name.

Open a dispute.

I opened a dispute a few minutes ago. It's very irritating because I just want my deposit back and have never had an issue paying my bills so wouldn't start now!

....... · 28-03-2019 3:11pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

transferring of accounts happens all the time. Usually on the final inspection the meters are read and the suppliers are contacted by phone with the current reading and the name of the new account holder.

Yes - when it is initiated by the person wanting to take ownership of the account.

But you cant transfer the account into someone elses name - otherwise everyone would be at that and making someone liable for an outstanding bill.

GGTrek · 28-03-2019 3:11pm

....... wrote: »

The landlord is not entitled to this information if the bill was in your name.

Open a dispute.

I quoted the law, it is a tenant obligation to pay its utility bills if written in the lease and I got a termination notice validated at the RTB because a tenant was not paying utility bills in his name. If it is written in the lease the OP will have to present some way of showing that he/she has paid the bills (since there are definitely liabilities for the LL if the OP does not pay even if in the OP name!). The only matter that can be argued is the amount of deposit that should be already returned to the OP. The OP should request a partial refund of deposit now and the full balance when he/she provides proof of payment, without hiding behing GPDR BS that does not apply in this case.

Opening an RTB dispute will be a huge waste of time for the OP and the LL, of course you risk nothing suggesting this course of action, so it is very easy for you.

GGTrek · 28-03-2019 3:13pm

kcdiom wrote: »

I opened a dispute a few minutes ago. It's very irritating because I just want my deposit back and have never had an issue paying my bills so wouldn't start now!

You will definitely learn a few things then.

Claw Hammer · 28-03-2019 3:14pm

....... wrote: »

Yes - when it is initiated by the person wanting to take ownership of the account.

But you cant transfer the account into someone elses name - otherwise everyone would be at that and making someone liable for an outstanding bill.

It is done all of the time. Utility companies put the landlords name o the account and send bills. If the LL read the meter they should accept the account from the reading they gave. They will be liable until they get a new tenant.

JustMe,K · 28-03-2019 3:16pm

GGTrek wrote: »

I quoted the law, it is a tenant obligation to pay its utility bills if written in the lease and I got a termination notice validated at the RTB because a tenant was not paying utility bills in his name. If it is written in the lease the OP will have to present some way of showing that he/she has paid the bills (since there are definitely liabilities for the LL if the OP does not pay even if in the OP name!). The only matter that can be argued is the amount of deposit that should be already returned to the OP. The OP should request a partial refund of deposit now and the full balance when he/she provides proof of payment, without hiding behing GPDR BS that does not apply in this case.

Opening an RTB dispute will be a huge waste of time for the OP and the LL, of course you risk nothing suggesting this course of action, so it is very easy for you.

The reason I mentioned GDPR is because the LL has already had issues with data breaches so I am not convinced that the data I submit will be held correctly.

They are refusing to return any part of my (2.5k) deposit until I can produce evidence I have settled the final bill which has not been produced. As I'm in credit on my account, its even more irritating.

....... · 28-03-2019 3:17pm

GGTrek wrote: »

(since there are definitely liabilities for the LL if the OP does not pay even if in the OP name!).

Nope - the electricity provider cannot make you liable for a tenants bill.

Claw Hammer · 28-03-2019 3:20pm

....... wrote: »

Nope - the electricity provider cannot make you liable for a tenants bill.

They don't make the landlord liable but they ofte refuse to re-connect if they are not paid.

....... · 28-03-2019 3:20pm

kcdiom wrote: »

The reason I mentioned GDPR is because the LL has already had issues with data breaches so I am not convinced that the data I submit will be held correctly.

They are refusing to return any part of my (2.5k) deposit until I can produce evidence I have settled the final bill which has not been produced. As I'm in credit on my account, its even more irritating.

Why cant you produce evidence with and data you do not wish the LL to see blacked out?

What is on the final bill that you feel is a GDPR risk?

JustMe,K · 28-03-2019 3:27pm

....... wrote: »

Why cant you produce evidence with and data you do not wish the LL to see blacked out?

What is on the final bill that you feel is a GDPR risk?

Because the energy supplier wont produce the bill for almost 2 weeks. Irrespective of this my main issue is their refusal to return any part of my deposit without meeting their requirement to produce a copy of the final bill and proof its been paid. The GDPR issue is basically that I don't believe they are entitled to that data, and I cannot prove or disprove that.

amcalester · 28-03-2019 3:30pm

GGTrek wrote: »

I quoted the law, it is a tenant obligation to pay its utility bills if written in the lease and I got a termination notice validated at the RTB because a tenant was not paying utility bills in his name. If it is written in the lease the OP will have to present some way of showing that he/she has paid the bills (since there are definitely liabilities for the LL if the OP does not pay even if in the OP name!). The only matter that can be argued is the amount of deposit that should be already returned to the OP. The OP should request a partial refund of deposit now and the full balance when he/she provides proof of payment, without hiding behing GPDR BS that does not apply in this case.

Opening an RTB dispute will be a huge waste of time for the OP and the LL, of course you risk nothing suggesting this course of action, so it is very easy for you.

You quoted a law, but it's doesnt apply here.

The RTB are very clear, landlord cannot withhold deposit unless the bills are in his name.

You having a termination notice upheld is irrelevant to a discussion about a deposit.

Claw Hammer · 28-03-2019 3:32pm

Why is the o/p complaining anyway? The landlord will be ordered to pay him extra for failure to promptly return his deposit.

....... · 28-03-2019 3:33pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Why is the o/p complaining anyway? The landlord will be ordered to pay him extra for failure to promptly return his deposit.

Thats kind of an obtuse comment.

The OP is complaining because the LL is illegally withholding their money.

Claw Hammer · 28-03-2019 3:34pm

....... wrote: »

Thats kind of an obtuse comment.

The OP is complaining because the LL is illegally withholding their money.

Yes, and the o/p is going to get the money plus damages. Happy days.

JustMe,K · 28-03-2019 3:35pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Why is the o/p complaining anyway? The landlord will be ordered to pay him extra for failure to promptly return his deposit.

Eh because it's my money and I want it back? I'm not looking for extra.

....... · 28-03-2019 3:35pm

kcdiom wrote: »

Because the energy supplier wont produce the bill for almost 2 weeks. Irrespective of this my main issue is their refusal to return any part of my deposit without meeting their requirement to produce a copy of the final bill and proof its been paid. The GDPR issue is basically that I don't believe they are entitled to that data, and I cannot prove or disprove that.

So the LL wants you to produce a bill you dont have before they give you back a deposit that they are not entitled to withhold.

Its this kind of behaviour that gives LLs a bad name.

You will get your money, Im sorry that you have to be treated like to this get it though.

....... · 28-03-2019 3:36pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Yes, and the o/p is going to get the money plus damages. Happy days.

With a gap where he or she has not got the money at all.

Are you really so obtuse that you cannot see the issue here?

Or are you just trolling for lolz?

28-03-2019 3:37pm

Am I missing something here?

Produce the closing statement, you get your deposit back, but refuse to produce it, open a dispute, wait for months for a ruling, then maybe get your money back. Op, the solution would seem obvious to most.

Claw Hammer · 28-03-2019 3:39pm

....... wrote: »

With a gap where he or she has not got the money at all.

Are you really so obtuse that you cannot see the issue here?

Or are you just trolling for lolz?

The o/p should look on it as an investment.

....... · 28-03-2019 3:40pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Am I missing something here?

Produce the closing statement, you get your deposit back, but refuse to produce it, open a dispute, wait for months for a ruling, then maybe get your money back. Op, the solution would seem obvious to most.

The OP doesnt have the closing statement and wont for 2 weeks.

....... · 28-03-2019 3:40pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The o/p should look on it as an investment.

Grow up please.

Enforced investing? What planet are you on?

JustMe,K · 28-03-2019 3:41pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Am I missing something here?

Produce the closing statement, you get your deposit back, but refuse to produce it, open a dispute, wait for months for a ruling, then maybe get your money back. Op, the solution would seem obvious to most.

Yes, you are missing something - I cant produce the closing statement until its provided to me, which will take up to 2 weeks. I had been told I would get my deposit back within 10 days, which clearly wont happen unless I produce proof (that the LL may not even be entitled to) that the account in my name is closed and paid up to date.

paul71 · 28-03-2019 3:42pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

transferring of accounts happens all the time. Usually on the final inspection the meters are read and the suppliers are contacted by phone with the current reading and the name of the new account holder.

Does it? Can I transfer my electricity account to your name please?

See how it works now?

Claw Hammer · 28-03-2019 3:42pm

....... wrote: »

Grow up please.

Enforced investing? What planet are you on?

I am on a rational planet. I like to get out of situations with more money that I went in with.

JustMe,K · 28-03-2019 3:42pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The o/p should look on it as an investment.

Seriously? If I wanted to invest my money surely I should get to choose where and how it is invested?!

....... · 28-03-2019 3:43pm

kcdiom wrote: »

Seriously? If I wanted to invest my money surely I should get to choose where and how it is invested?!

The poster is trolling. I have already reported it. Use your ignore button.

JustMe,K · 28-03-2019 3:44pm

....... wrote: »

The poster is trolling. I have already reported it. Use your ignore button.

Thanks - some people

28-03-2019 4:09pm

kcdiom wrote: »

Yes, you are missing something - I cant produce the closing statement until its provided to me, which will take up to 2 weeks. I had been told I would get my deposit back within 10 days, which clearly wont happen unless I produce proof (that the LL may not even be entitled to) that the account in my name is closed and paid up to date.

If you took the meter reading the day you left and submitted it to your electricity supplier, it would have been an extra 4 days over the 10. Pay your bill, give it to the Ll, get your deposit. But you want to dig your heels in, open a dispute, wait months and then get your deposit. Help yourself get your deposit back as soon as possible.

JustMe,K · 28-03-2019 4:23pm

Dav010 wrote: »

If you took the meter reading the day you left and submitted it to your electricity supplier, it would have been an extra 4 days over the 10. Pay your bill, give it to the Ll, get your deposit. But you want to dig your heels in, open a dispute, wait months and then get your deposit. Help yourself get your deposit back as soon as possible.

The LL gave me the meter readings on the day I handed back the keys. I submitted it to the supplier that day. They said it would take 2/3 days to close the ac, then moved it to 10 days. I cant pay a bill I dont have.

Claw Hammer · 28-03-2019 4:44pm

kcdiom wrote: »

Seriously? If I wanted to invest my money surely I should get to choose where and how it is invested?!

Sometimes the investment chooses you. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth!

crkcvnirl · 28-03-2019 4:47pm

kcdiom wrote: »

So I have moved out of my rented property and the (large, 'professional', well known) landlord is refusing to return my deposit until I provide proof from my energy provider that I have closed my account, a copy of the final bill and proof pf payment. I had my move out inspection a few days ago, and there were no issues (arguably, the property was cleaner than when I took it on). Despite my view that this is unlawful and completely at odds with GDPR they are insistent on receiving the information and I suspect they are more than aware that raising a dispute over this with RTB will take up to 16 weeks. I have asked that they provide me with details of the legislation which allows them to withhold my deposit pending receipt of the above details, however they keep dodging the question - does anyone know if I am right or if they are right?

It's not as simple as just giving them what they want, as my energy supplier states it can take up to 10 days to produce the final bill and close the account.

This is absolutely appauling behaviour. If the bill was in the tenants name, then the LL is not held responsible for previous tenants utility bills. Even if a tenant owed €1000 in unpaid gas bills it's not LL problem. LL gives meter readings when putting back in his name and provider may ask for a forwarding address for the leaving tenant. That's it.

LL knows exactly what he's at! As long as service is not cut off prior to the move, paid or unpaid utility bills are not LLs problem. LLs are not debt collectors for ultility companies.

I do tenancy moves on a regular basis and would always show a tenant the meter and the reading and I always text or email them a picture of the actual meter reading for reference. Also noticed that utility companies want payment by DD or they'll charge renters a big deposit.

If property is clean and tidy on final inspection I return dep' there and then, clearly I'm one of the few.

Best of luck with RTB

28-03-2019 4:51pm

kcdiom wrote: »

The LL gave me the meter readings on the day I handed back the keys. I submitted it to the supplier that day. They said it would take 2/3 days to close the ac, then moved it to 10 days. I cant pay a bill I dont have.

To be fair, it is fairly standard, and understandable that the property owner wants to ensure the new tenant doesn’t have a problem opening an electricity account. Most tenancy contracts would stipulate that all utilities are paid and closed/transferred at the end of a tenancy before the deposit is returned. Sounds like the delay is being caused by the utility company. Why you think this warrants an RTB dispute is beyond me, the LL has told you your deposit will be returned when you show there is no outstanding bill on the property. The GDPR stuff you are on about is crap.

JustMe,K · 28-03-2019 5:48pm

Dav010 wrote: »

To be fair, it is fairly standard, and understandable that the property owner wants to ensure the new tenant doesn’t have a problem opening an electricity account. Most tenancy contracts would stipulate that all utilities are paid and closed/transferred at the end of a tenancy before the deposit is returned. Sounds like the delay is being caused by the utility company. Why you think this warrants an RTB dispute is beyond me, the LL has told you your deposit will be returned when you show there is no outstanding bill on the property. The GDPR stuff you are on about is crap.

The new tenant moved in today - they would know fairly lively if there was an issue connecting an account.

Holding onto 2.5k of someones (hard earned) money because of a potential bill of a couple of hundred euro when that person is currently in credit on their electricity account is insane.

It warrants an RTB dispute because it appears they have no legal basis to withhold my deposit.

Please explain to me how GDPR is crap? They have no basis for requesting the information they are requesting i.e. copy of my final bill, proof of payment.

JustMe,K · 28-03-2019 5:53pm

crkcvnirl wrote: »

This is absolutely appauling behaviour. If the bill was in the tenants name, then the LL is not held responsible for previous tenants utility bills. Even if a tenant owed €1000 in unpaid gas bills it's not LL problem. LL gives meter readings when putting back in his name and provider may ask for a forwarding address for the leaving tenant. That's it.

LL knows exactly what he's at! As long as service is not cut off prior to the move, paid or unpaid utility bills are not LLs problem. LLs are not debt collectors for ultility companies.

I do tenancy moves on a regular basis and would always show a tenant the meter and the reading and I always text or email them a picture of the actual meter reading for reference. Also noticed that utility companies want payment by DD or they'll charge renters a big deposit.

If property is clean and tidy on final inspection I return dep' there and then, clearly I'm one of the few.

Best of luck with RTB

Thanks - the property was cleaner than I got it, it was even remarked that the cleaners would have nothing at all to do. I never saw the meter, I have their word for it that the readings are as they have said - funny isn't it, I have to take their word that the readings are correct, yet they don't extend the same courtesy to me in respect of paying my bills!

The LL is big enough I guess that they get away with stuff like this. It is a significant sum they are withholding (well, to me anyway).

daheff · 28-03-2019 5:57pm

kcdiom wrote: »

The new tenant moved in today - they would know fairly lively if there was an issue connecting an account.

Holding onto 2.5k of someones (hard earned) money because of a potential bill of a couple of hundred euro when that person is currently in credit on their electricity account is insane.

It warrants an RTB dispute because it appears they have no legal basis to withhold my deposit.

Please explain to me how GDPR is crap? They have no basis for requesting the information they are requesting i.e. copy of my final bill, proof of payment.

i'm going to bet you get your deposit in a couple of days.

I reckon the LL was waiting for the new tenant to pay a deposit to refund yours.

Pursue them via RTB. Keep everything in writing. As for a photo of the ending meter reading.

beauf · 28-03-2019 6:03pm

....... wrote: »

Nope - the electricity provider cannot make you liable for a tenants bill.

They may not be legally allowed to do so. But I know first hand where they have done exactly that.

beauf · 28-03-2019 6:06pm

kcdiom wrote: »

... I had my move out inspection a few days ago...

kcdiom wrote: »

...I had been told I would get my deposit back within 10 days...

I'm confused. You said you were told you would get the deposit back within 10 days. But now you expect it back in a few days. Which is it?

Can you not login on line see your account and the payment, and the previous balance, print it out, blank out all the personal details, show LL Job done?

JustMe,K · 28-03-2019 6:08pm

beauf wrote: »

I'm confused. You said you were told you would get the deposit back within 10 days. But now you expect it back in a few days. Which is it?

I was told within 10 days maximum, then the issue with having to supply a copy of my final bill and proof of payment arises. So now it is 10 days from then.

beauf · 28-03-2019 6:09pm

kcdiom wrote: »

I was told within 10 days maximum, then the issue with having to supply a copy of my final bill and proof of payment arises. So now it is 10 days from then.

Was this a requirement in the lease you agreed to? or new?

28-03-2019 6:27pm

kcdiom wrote: »

It warrants an RTB dispute because it appears they have no legal basis to withhold my deposit.

Please explain to me how GDPR is crap? They have no basis for requesting the information they are requesting i.e. copy of my final bill, proof of payment.

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, it may take months for the dispute to be adjudicated on, by which time you will long have received your deposit if you give them proof of transferring/paying what is owed on your account.

The electric bill relates to their property and all it will have is your name on it, why would this be a GDPR issue? They already have your name, PPS number etc to register the tenancy, what extra info are you giving by showing your final statement?

handlemaster · 28-03-2019 6:37pm

kcdiom wrote: »

So I have moved out of my rented property and the (large, 'professional', well known) landlord is refusing to return my deposit until I provide proof from my energy provider that I have closed my account, a copy of the final bill and proof pf payment. I had my move out inspection a few days ago, and there were no issues (arguably, the property was cleaner than when I took it on). Despite my view that this is unlawful and completely at odds with GDPR they are insistent on receiving the information and I suspect they are more than aware that raising a dispute over this with RTB will take up to 16 weeks. I have asked that they provide me with details of the legislation which allows them to withhold my deposit pending receipt of the above details, however they keep dodging the question - does anyone know if I am right or if they are right?

It's not as simple as just giving them what they want, as my energy supplier states it can take up to 10 days to produce the final bill and close the account.

Have you paid the bills or not ?If you have whats the issue,if not you should. Sounds like a drama queen.

Issues with return of deposit

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