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Wales v Ireland match thread

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,458 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Dont think his point hits the mark though. It suggests that when things arent going to plan onfield, its because the plan is wrong. And so if players were comfortable changing or tweaking the plan, then things might go better.
    But thats not the case. When things are going poorly, it is not due to the plan. Its due to the execution of the plan. Some then say change the players. But that is a mistake too. Invariably, the second string is inferior to the first selection, so even less likely to make the plan work. The best thing is to stick with the best you have got.

    Results this 6N went less perfectly than ideally envisaged mainly due to player's injuries (or rather, the coincidence of several of them), and good play from the opposition.
    Those still seeing the illusion of Murray and Sexton having been off form, are not seeing the performance of the forwards correctly, whose low level led directly to limiting the effectiveness of our scrum half and opening half.

    Did the forwards force Murray to be glacially slow getting the ball away from rucks, or cause him to fire ball at players feet? Did they cause Sexton to kick out on the full or Chuck a pass into the stands. They've been in crap from, no dissembling is gonna change that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,994 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    A ball being played from a collapsed scrum isnt a marginal call. They happen all the time in pro rugby. Nothing marginal from it
    Exactly. However Ireland - in the pro game - were penalised for Healy collapsing it. Wales get 3 points.
    Another day, another Ref - that's play on.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 474 ✭✭Former Observer


    SOME PLAYER RATINGS:

    Tadhg Beirne - Offered little reason to think he should be picked ahead of alternatives. Weak in contact, poor body language, noticeably meek aura 3/10

    Jordan Larmour - Fresh faced, pint-sized Jordan Lamour was responsible for several examples of poor decision making and nearly botched his easy run in for the try. Needs to take a lot of learnings from the game (positional awareness, fielding of high-kicks/grubbers etc.) or could find himself phased out. 3/10

    Jack Conan - Another poor showing from Conan who is clearly not international standard. 3/10

    Jacob Stockdale Great catch of the ball from Sexton's crossfield kick. Sad to see him darkening his hair with dye when he is naturally blonde. Wouldn't be surprised to see him putting on the fake tan next season. 7/10

    CJ Stander - South African U20s Captain CJ Stander can be heard yelling instructions from the back of the scrum in an obnoxious manner that noticeably frightens meeker players like Tadhg Beirne. 4/10

    Peter O’Mahony - Munster Captain and Ireland legend Peter O'Mahony brings grit and steely eyed determination to every game. Hungry for work and a lineout monster, Pete gets a 7/10

    Rob Kearney: Great positional awareness, provides safe ball after going into contact 8/10

    Conor Murray - This boy has it all, the looks, a good mental attitude, and at 6 2' he is a giant of a scrum half. A bit "glacial" so I'm only giving him a 7/10


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,200 ✭✭✭troyzer


    SOME PLAYER RATINGS:

    Tadhg Beirne - Offered little reason to think he should be picked ahead of alternatives. Weak in contact, poor body language, noticeably meek aura 3/10

    Jordan Larmour - Fresh faced, pint-sized Jordan Lamour was responsible for several examples of poor decision making and nearly botched his easy run in for the try. Needs to take a lot of learnings from the game (positional awareness, fielding of high-kicks/grubbers etc.) or could find himself phased out. 3/10

    Jack Conan - Another poor showing from Conan who is clearly not international standard. 3/10

    Jacob Stockdale Great catch of the ball from Sexton's crossfield kick. Sad to see him darkening his hair with dye when he is naturally blonde. Wouldn't be surprised to see him putting on the fake tan next season. 7/10

    CJ Stander - South African U20s Captain CJ Stander can be heard yelling instructions from the back of the scrum in an obnoxious manner that noticeably frightens meeker players like Tadhg Beirne. 4/10

    Peter O’Mahony - Munster Captain and Ireland legend Peter O'Mahony brings grit and steely eyed determination to every game. Hungry for work and a lineout monster, Pete gets a 7/10

    Rob Kearney: Great positional awareness, provides safe ball after going into contact 8/10

    Conor Murray - This boy has it all, the looks, a good mental attitude, and at 6 2' he is a giant of a scrum half. A bit "glacial" so I'm only giving him a 7/10

    You nearly had me there for a moment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭Mike Oxlong


    troyzer wrote: »
    You nearly had me there for a moment.

    You read his report on TB and nearly jizzed in your pants
    :D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Did the forwards force Murray to be glacially slow getting the ball away from rucks, or cause him to fire ball at players feet? Did they cause Sexton to kick out on the full or Chuck a pass into the stands. They've been in crap from, no dissembling is gonna change that.

    Generally yes. Pass speed at rucks is very dependent on the quality of the ball delivered, the protection around the ruck, and the rest of the team being in position to play the called move or offer options. Murray did no just say slow down, as if he couldnt be bothered, or woke up one morning without the skill to pass the ball.
    And, yes, bad ball, a struggling team with poor possession, does force (it isnt the cause, sure, he still has to make the mistake, but the pressure, disruption, or lack of time, reduce the probability that they will execute correctly) a player to mistakes they would probably not commit if the pack was controlling the ball and opposition.
    Neither were crap. People are really kidding themselves, looking at the matter very superficially, or just looking for scape goats, if they think both Irish half backs, for years widely considered world class, for 5 games in a row, just happened to forget how to do it, and played badly of their own accord. It just does not stand up to reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭hahashake


    Last time I say this I swear but Gatland et al turning Parkes into a comfortable international never ceases to amaze me. Was arguably one of the better players on the park on Saturday.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Generally yes. Pass speed at rucks is very dependent on the quality of the ball delivered, the protection around the ruck, and the rest of the team being in position to play the called move or offer options. Murray did no just say slow down, as if he couldnt be bothered, or woke up one morning without the skill to pass the ball.
    And, yes, bad ball, a struggling team with poor possession, does force (it isnt the cause, sure, he still has to make the mistake, but the pressure, disruption, or lack of time, reduce the probability that they will execute correctly) a player to mistakes they would probably not commit if the pack was controlling the ball and opposition.
    Neither were crap. People are really kidding themselves, looking at the matter very superficially, or just looking for scape goats, if they think both Irish half backs, for years widely considered world class, for 5 games in a row, just happened to forget how to do it, and played badly of their own accord. It just does not stand up to reason.

    Someone suggested to me that Murray has not got full free movement back, especially with kicks. Even with the forwards at a low level of performance, those who substituted him were firing the ball out a whole lot faster. He remains a good player but one very much out of form. Therein lies the concern for most people, aside from the severe disappointment at how we played in the 6N; will the RWC squad contain names we all know or players in form?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    I had the joys of listening to Andy Dunne in the car for last hour...

    He is just giving out for the sake of giving out. No real point made at all.

    It is Joe fault, the players should all be running around like the Barbarians....loss of form??? no player can lose form. Kicking the ball out on the full is Joe fault.....hilarious really

    He made valid points a few months ago, now he just thinks going off in tangents will get more listeners or something......


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I had the joys of listening to Andy Dunne in the car for last hour...

    ......

    who is Andy Dunne?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,458 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Generally yes. Pass speed at rucks is very dependent on the quality of the ball delivered, the protection around the ruck, and the rest of the team being in position to play the called move or offer options. Murray did no just say slow down, as if he couldnt be bothered, or woke up one morning without the skill to pass the ball.
    And, yes, bad ball, a struggling team with poor possession, does force (it isnt the cause, sure, he still has to make the mistake, but the pressure, disruption, or lack of time, reduce the probability that they will execute correctly) a player to mistakes they would probably not commit if the pack was controlling the ball and opposition.
    Neither were crap. People are really kidding themselves, looking at the matter very superficially, or just looking for scape goats, if they think both Irish half backs, for years widely considered world class, for 5 games in a row, just happened to forget how to do it, and played badly of their own accord. It just does not stand up to reason.

    Players go out of form all the time. Would you be saying the same for SOB, or were they external factors causing him to have such little impact?

    It's a team sport, and the forwards being bullied is going to make life difficult for the backs, but Murray in particular has been poor. His speed of delivery is markedly slower and kicking less effective. Sexton, as a player of the caliber to win World Player of the Year, should have done more to counter the Welsh pressure. It was instructive that one of Carty's first actions was to dink through a beautifully weighted grubber, which led to the solitary Irish try. Where was that sort of invention for the previous 70mins?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Riskymove wrote: »
    who is Andy Dunne?




    Off the ball podcast


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I had the joys of listening to Andy Dunne in the car for last hour...

    He is just giving out for the sake of giving out. No real point made at all.

    It is Joe fault, the players should all be running around like the Barbarians....loss of form??? no player can lose form. Kicking the ball out on the full is Joe fault.....hilarious really

    He made valid points a few months ago, now he just thinks going off in tangents will get more listeners or something......

    It's not just a one or two players though

    Are the players looking to far ahead to the WC, have they switched off since Joe/IRFU announced he was was leaving, is there something else happening in camp that's the cause I've no idea but there's a collective loss of form. It's worrying that there really wasn't an improvement over the tournament. Maybe we have come to expect too much from the squad and that this is just a blip and everything will be fine for Japan.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    phog wrote: »
    It's not just a one or two players though

    Are the players looking to far ahead to the WC, have they switched off since Joe/IRFU announced he was was leaving, is there something else happening in camp that's the cause I've no idea but there's a collective loss of form. It's worrying that there really wasn't an improvement over the tournament. Maybe we have come to expect too much from the squad and that this is just a blip and everything will be fine for Japan.

    Yes it’s not one player but the Andy Dunne school of thought is suddenly for ireland to play like France, no structure and just throw it around

    Suicide game plan

    We have no idea if blip as team will not play for a few months now

    Will be interesting to see how Sexton and Murray play for their specific teams


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Yes it’s not one player but the Andy Dunne school of thought is suddenly for ireland to play like France, no structure and just throw it around

    Suicide game plan

    We have no idea if blip as team will not play for a few months now

    Will be interesting to see how Sexton and Murray play for their specific teams

    The advantage, Sexton in particular has, is that there is a lower level of intensity. Pro14 will help in this regard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭jem


    I was watching Sexton again yesterday. I'm sick of the tantrums and strops he's throwing when things aren't going well. I don't think that's leadership! And I do wonder is there truth in Tony Wards recent article about the impact it's having on the wider squad? His reaction during his substitution against Italy with a young guy making his debut was appalling.

    .

    to me he looks like geting of world player of the year has gone to his head and his form and attitude has gone to his head.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    jem wrote: »
    to me he looks like geting of world player of the year has gone to his head and his form and attitude has gone to his head.


    Sexton hasn't changed one bit. He was always the same.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,684 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    jem wrote: »
    to me he looks like geting of world player of the year has gone to his head and his form and attitude has gone to his head.

    Ah yes, a 2 time B&I Lion with a grand slam, 3 6N winners medals, 4 champions cup medals, and 3 Pro14 medals, has taken one single award to his head and that is the sole cause of his poor form.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭Mike Oxlong


    Ah yes, a 2 time B&I Lion with a grand slam, 3 6N winners medals, 4 champions cup medals, and 3 Pro14 medals, has taken one single award to his head and that is the sole cause of his poor form.

    ??
    :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,905 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    we prob should have seen this coming , i said in the build up that i hoped ireland would be up for it because i knew the shiit storm wales would bring, we werent and like i predicted got hammered. now to be honest i think ireland caught teams out last year, the template however was looked at nd teams now know how to cause us trouble. i would genuinely be worried enough about the scotland gameits gone from 80:20 ireland win to 60:40. scotland will improve in world cup, japan we should take. either way i dont think it matters a jot because south africa will be peaking for us in a quater final and blow us away on current form as for all blacks i dread the thought of them looking for revenge on us they will put 50 points on us if we meet


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    Sexton did not go from World Player of the Year to an awful player after five games. To suggest that players like him, O'Mahony, Leavy, Henderson, Murray etc need to 'prove they belong in the team' is a silly knee jerk reaction I would expect to see in a soccer forum.

    The team struggled badly this year, we can all agree on that, but they did not suddenly become awful players in two months and the coaching ticket has to take some responsibility too for our poor performances. But its a team game at the end of the day and the team are generally responsible as a unit.

    Soccer forum...fighting words. On mature reflection, I might have channelled too much post-match exasperation in my previous post. Let me say that while our team selection may not change that much in the end for the WC because we don’t have lads like Sexton popping up all the time, some players do need to improve markedly. For example, quite apart from his kicking and passing, Sexton’s erratic behaviour is becoming a distraction and some of his tackling of late has been wild. He needs to tone it down and set a better example for the younger players. Sexton’s 2019 6N reminds me of Paul and Wings - it could have been so much better.

    On the bright side...we’ll have our feet on the ground in the WC and won’t be shocked by having to overcome a large deficit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭lbc2019


    10 years!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    The point was that he lost form and was dropped by NZ, despite the fact he was the current leading try scorer. Other top players have been dumped in similar fashion, Dagg, Naholo, NMS.

    Would the leading Irish try scorer being dropped in similar circumstances? We've been far too accommodating of players out of form

    Doesn’t that merely reflect their much larger pool of excellent players?


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,684 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Ardillaun wrote: »
    Doesn’t that merely reflect their much larger pool of excellent players?

    Jack McGrath is surely a prime example of this, where in a position of strength, we have a player who was regarded as top class, was dropped from the squad because he was in a bad spell of form (potentially injury related but still a quiet season overall), because we had quality options to back fill.

    If the likes of Earls or Stockdale were having a really poor season with their province, and we had a similar calibre player ready to step in then yes, they would be dropped.

    But in the case of our halfbacks, there's a dropoff between the starters and the replacements.


  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭hahashake


    Dropping ageing outside backs is a lot more straight forward than dropping experienced world class halves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    The point was that he lost form and was dropped by NZ, despite the fact he was the current leading try scorer. Other top players have been dumped in similar fashion, Dagg, Naholo, NMS.

    Would the leading Irish try scorer being dropped in similar circumstances? We've been far too accommodating of players out of form


    I think you missed the point


    It wasn't just form he lost....he piled on the pounds and wasn't fit anymore...you can't say that is just losing form


    If Earls pilled on the pounds and couldn't run anymore then yes of course he would be dropped. As I said at the start, you picked the wrong player to compare to.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,458 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    hahashake wrote: »
    Dropping ageing outside backs is a lot more straight forward than dropping experienced world class halves.

    How so? If they are playing like drains, they should be dropped. Marmion is fully capable of playing to international standard, Carberry and Carty have shown that they are not completely lost at sea.

    Just reeks of cowardice to be honest. It's not healthy to tell players in a squad that it doesn't matter how terribly the incumbent is playing, they'll never get a meaningful chance.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    How so? If they are playing like drains, they should be dropped. Marmion is fully capable of playing to international standard, Carberry and Carty have shown that they are not completely lost at sea.

    Just reeks of cowardice to be honest. It's not healthy to tell players in a squad that it doesn't matter how terribly the incumbent is playing, they'll never get a meaningful chance.

    Cowardice?? Ah here....


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