Argument for reform of justice system

Giveaway

https://www.thejournal.ie/banned-hit-and-run-driver-who-seriously-injured-cyclist-jailed-for-five-years-4544784-Mar2019/

Cyclist's has permanent injury and life ruined. I know the criminal hgot 5 years but will be out in much less. A quick google reveals his previous crimes. It appears to me he goes on crime sprees knowing any sentences will be concurrent. Mandatory consecutive sentences need to be brought in for repeat offenders ,but i would not like to see a copy of the american system of multiple charges for one incident(even for McGregor) either

Gael23

Bring back he firing squad.

Giveaway

Gael23 wrote: »

Bring back he firing squad.

Suggest that this would make future scumbags very unlikely to surrender and more likely to kill to cover their crimes. Suggest criminal justice system needs to offer an out for non life sentence crimes, such as a possibility of release in 20 years even if consecutive sentences add up to much longer. Naturally this would not apply to murderers, rapists or leaders of criminal gangs

Gael23

Giveaway wrote: »

Suggest that this would make future scumbags very unlikely to surrender and more likely to kill to cover their crimes. Suggest criminal justice system needs to offer an out for non life sentence crimes, such as a possibility of release in 20 years even if consecutive sentences add up to much longer. Naturally this would not apply to murderers, rapists or leaders of criminal gangs

Fair point. But for criminals who will never see the light of day again, what’s the benefit to keeping them in jail.

Giveaway

Gael23 wrote: »

Fair point. But for criminals who will never see the light of day again, what’s the benefit to keeping them in jail.

Waste their lives. Let the upcoming scumbags see their pathetic daddy/uncle getting old in jail. If you execute them, you glamarise and immortalise them as cool rebels. See all the hero worship for dead gangsters

corner of hells

Two posts in and the death penalty is raised as an option.
That's got to be a record .

KikiLaRue

I'm constantly amazed by 'mitigating factors' like 'his family supports him', 'he has a good career' etc.

So basically people from difficult family backgrounds and don't have a career get worse punishments? Why? Seems like a convenient way to knock a few years off a sentence if you're middle class.

corner of hells

Giveaway wrote: »

Suggest that this would make future scumbags very unlikely to surrender and more likely to kill to cover their crimes. Suggest criminal justice system needs to offer an out for non life sentence crimes, such as a possibility of release in 20 years even if consecutive sentences add up to much longer. Naturally this would not apply to murderers, rapists or leaders of criminal gangs

Using the word suggest to start a sentence , death penalty.

Giveaway

corner of hells wrote: »

Using the word suggest to start a sentence , death penalty.

Grammer Nazism = death by scaphism

Gael23

corner of hells wrote: »

Two posts in and the death penalty is raised as an option.
That's got to be a record .

Take the New Zealand shootings. What’s the point in keeping that guy in max security jail for potentially 50-60 years. For criminals that can never be rehabilitated should death not be on the table?

Damien360

The removal of concurrent sentencing would be a huge step forward. Build another prison would allow this. Location ? Who cares, your family can skype you if the facilities are put in place.

corner of hells

Gael23 wrote: »

Take the New Zealand shootings. What’s the point in keeping that guy in max security jail for potentially 50-60 years. For criminals that can never be rehabilitated should death not be on the table?

You do have a point , these guys are truly monsters.

However most of the world is moving away from the death penalty
There's no real evidence it acts as a deterrent
I'm not so sure myself I'd want to live in a country that becomes on a par with the likes of China , Saudi Arabia , USA etc who are notorious human rights abusers.

You also become complicit to a degree yourself , your in effect part of the machine , so would you push the button ? Inject the guilty ?

I think in some US states it costs from conviction to execution up to nine million dollars by the time all legal process are exhausted .

Evidence exists that there is significant impact on the officials involved directly in the execution process

Death penalty for long posts however.

biko

We need a third-strike policy, then deport them to Rockall

Gael23

How much does it cost to keep someone locked up?

Terrlock

I think the jails need to be reformed as well....I mean they are overcrowded and cost the taxpayer a fortune.

Why can't these people be put to work on tasks the rest of society doesn't want to do and have to earn their keep.

Are irish jails really a deterrent or more like a holiday camp people can go to be with their friends.

biko

Gael23 wrote: »

How much does it cost to keep someone locked up?

Google "cost of prisoner per year Ireland"

You're welcome

NewbridgeIR

KikiLaRue wrote: »

I'm constantly amazed by 'mitigating factors' like 'his family supports him', 'he has a good career' etc.

So basically people from difficult family backgrounds and don't have a career get worse punishments? Why? Seems like a convenient way to knock a few years off a sentence if you're middle class.

In this case the mitigating factors are "his guilty plea, his apology, his remorse, his efforts at rehabilitation and the fact that he is using his time in custody well."

Sentencing is inconsistent across the board. The underprivileged get light / suspended sentences too. The difference being that the Left generally get outraged when they see a middle class person getting off. They tend to ignore it (or make excuses) when a poor person gets similarly treated.

Gael23

Terrlock wrote: »

I think the jails need to be reformed as well....I mean they are overcrowded and cost the taxpayer a fortune.

Why can't these people be put to work on tasks the rest of society doesn't want to do and have to earn their keep.

Are irish jails really a deterrent or more like a holiday camp people can go to be with their friends.

Like in meat factories and let them get away with murder?

Terrlock

Gael23 wrote: »

Like in meat factories and let them get away with murder?

No I didn't have meat factories in mind.

More like in prisons give them the very basics only. None of these playstation's and TV's they get.

Have them stripped back to basics and work too better themselves.

Such as basic food, and if they want better food they can work in growing plants and such.

Basic clothes that they need to repair and make themselves.

Make prisons self sufficient and in turn rehabilitating the prisoners in how to work for a living.

suicide_circus

92 previous convictions.

think about that for a minute.

he's 33 so from the age of 18 to the present, its the equivalent of him being found guilty of 6 crimes per year, every year, for 15 years. Thats a new conviction every 2 months for 15 years.

he shouldn't be at liberty. he shouldn't be allowed near the rest of society.

Damien360

suicide_circus wrote: »

92 previous convictions.

think about that for a minute.

he's 33 so from the age of 18 to the present, its the equivalent of him being found guilty of 6 crimes per year, every year, for 15 years. Thats a new conviction every 2 months for 15 years.

he shouldn't be at liberty. he shouldn't be allowed near the rest of society.

I said this on a previous thread but if he got just 3 months for each conviction, with consecutive sentencing (not concurrent) he would be 23 years in behind bars. That person is beyond reform. The constant reason given for less prison time is reformation of character.

There are plenty of others with the same level of convictions and it's not good enough that their excuses are still listened to in a court room.

Gael23

biko wrote: »

Google "cost of prisoner per year Ireland"

You're welcome

270k per year in high security.

Plenty of lethal injections could be got for that.

Irish Guitarist

The cyclist forgave him too easily. I wonder was he informed of the seriousness and number of the scumbags previous offences?

Responding to this, DeSilva told the court that he accepted the apology.
“I’ve no issue against him. I would like this situation to make him think and he can have a better life in the future. It was probably a very hard time for both of us.”
“From now on I can do my life and he can do a better life,” he said.

The majority of Wainyae’s 92 previous convictions are for road traffic offences, but he also has convictions for assault, theft and drug dealing. LeVert said he went into custody in 2014 and came out with a “full blown” heroin addiction.

It's all very well to say you hope he 'has a better life' but the fucker has previous convictions almost in triple digits. He's hardly likely to turn into a saint. He's fucking laughing at the apology and the justice system.

El_Bee

Giveaway wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/banned-hit-and-run-driver-who-seriously-injured-cyclist-jailed-for-five-years-4544784-Mar2019/

Cyclist's has permanent injury and life ruined. I know the criminal hgot 5 years but will be out in much less. A quick google reveals his previous crimes. It appears to me he goes on crime sprees knowing any sentences will be concurrent. Mandatory consecutive sentences need to be brought in for repeat offenders ,but i would not like to see a copy of the american system of multiple charges for one incident(even for McGregor) either

I could smack you across the back of the head, rob you wallet and phone, get caught, be brought before a judge and tell them:

• I'm battling addiction
• Have a difficult home life
• Have substance abuse issues
• Have learning difficulties (if I left school early)
• Fell in with a wrong crowd
• had a moment of madness
• feel truly remorseful
• concentrating on getting my life back on track

Etc. an more than likely wouldn't see a day in Jail, now imagine me doing that 80-90 more times and you'll have something of a picture of the current state of our courts.

davidk1394

Gael23 wrote: »

Bring back he firing squad.

I was going to say bring back the public hanging. It would be a family day out.

Force Carrier

Gael23 wrote: »

270k per year in high security.

You often hear of the prison costs but the money preserved to society by having the criminal safely kept on ice is never weighed in. There is likely no net cost to society of incarcerating anti social types and career criminals.


While the career criminal is out and about or active they are typically committing multiple crimes per week eg house breaking. Property loss, trauma and increased insurance premiums for everybody. The career criminal typically has multiple remands or court appearances per week. Each one means several hundred euro from the exchequer to a FLAC solicitor or more for counsel. Arson, Criminal Damage, Drunk Driving, Robbery etc economic costs and a psychological tariff for everybody - fear, anxiety, mistrust. Our predilection for a low prison population having criminals free in the community contributes to the salaries and administrative costs associated with Judges, Court Registrars and staff, Gardaí, Probation workers, Social workers etc.

Pronto63

My suggestion:

Minor offence (anti-social behaviour, shop lifting etc)
First offence:
1. Access to free legal aid - means tested
2. Probation act.
3. Visit to prison
4. Session with counsellor - if you're not careful your life will go down the sh11ter.
5. Access to support, education etc.

Second Offence:
1. No legal aid if within 5 years of previous offence.
2. Don't care how sorry you are or how dysfunctional your home life is - you had a chance - see above!
3. 6 months in a SSS (Short Sharp Shock) establishment - you would have visited this after first offence.
4. SSS is tent city somewhere in the west. No central heating, basic food, work and education available.

Third Offence:
1. Are you kidding, the gloves are off now!

Force Carrier

Pronto63 wrote: »

My suggestion:

Minor offence (anti-social behaviour, shop lifting etc)
First offence:
1. Access to free legal aid - means tested
2. Probation act.
3. Visit to prison
4. Session with counsellor - if you're not careful your life will go down the sh11ter.
5. Access to support, education etc.

Second Offence:
1. No legal aid if within 5 years of previous offence.
2. Don't care how sorry you are or how dysfunctional your home life is - you had a chance - see above!
3. 6 months in a SSS (Short Sharp Shock) establishment - you would have visited this after first offence.
4. SSS is tent city somewhere in the west. No central heating, basic food, work and education available.

Third Offence:
1. Are you kidding, the gloves are off now!

The person who makes one mistake is not the problem.
The toe rags who fill up our courts every day committed their first, second and third offences when they were ten years old. Probably in one night.

It's the merry go round of career criminals in and out of court every day of the week, occasionally in and out of prison for minuscule stints, forever afflicting decent people with no thought to anybody of ever stopping them in their tracks. Such types need to be incarcerated long term. For the protection of the community and no other reason. Screw their rehabilitation.

As for Legal Aid. If someone avails of it, pleads not guilty and is subsequently found guilty they should then be invoiced for the legal costs which they dishonestly accrued. This should be deducted from their doll.

SeanW

KikiLaRue wrote: »

I'm constantly amazed by 'mitigating factors' like 'his family supports him', 'he has a good career' etc.

So basically people from difficult family backgrounds and don't have a career get worse punishments? Why? Seems like a convenient way to knock a few years off a sentence if you're middle class.

No, people lower down get excuses made for them too AFAIK.

"He had a difficult childhood"
"He's battling addiction"

The whole system is rotten.

KikiLaRue

KikiLaRue wrote: »

I'm constantly amazed by 'mitigating factors' like 'his family supports him', 'he has a good career' etc.

So basically people from difficult family backgrounds and don't have a career get worse punishments? Why? Seems like a convenient way to knock a few years off a sentence if you're middle class.

Mickey Hart defending a fella accused of rape i belive, saying he was a good lad as he came from a good family as they were involved in the GAA Was nauseating

Pronto63

Force Carrier wrote: »

The person who makes one mistake is not the problem.
The toe rags who fill up our courts every day committed their first, second and third offences when they were ten years old. Probably in one night.

It's the merry go round of career criminals in and out of court every day of the week, occasionally in and out of prison for minuscule stints, forever afflicting decent people with no thought to anybody of ever stopping them in their tracks. Such types need to be incarcerated long term. For the protection of the community and no other reason. Screw their rehabilitation.

As for Legal Aid. If someone avails of it, pleads not guilty and is subsequently found guilty they should then be invoiced for the legal costs which they dishonestly accrued. This should be deducted from their doll.

Agree with you on the legal aid but I would aim to stop people from becoming those habitual career criminals.