Did Operation Barbarossa lead to Hitler ultimately losing?

Crock Rock

If Hitler didn't invade Russia in Operation Barbarossa, could he have kept Stalin somewhat on his good side and thus not have been defeated? (or at least not as quickly as he was defeated).

riffmongous

Invading Russia was essential to his plans and ideology though.. and who knows exactly what a delay of a few years would have resulted in but 41 was probably the most opportune year to invade

archer22

Stalin's Soviet Union was an expansionist empire, it and Germany were bound to clash.

Also it seems Stalin already had forces ready to attack Germany...they were waiting for the right moment when/if Germany got bogged down in the west.

All Stalin's armies on the western borders were mobile and not dug in..which supports the theory they were for attack not defence, also they had maps of the German autobahn network.

Hitler caught them on the back foot with his surprise onslaught.

Barbarossa likely would have succeeded if it had not been delayed when Hitler had to go to the aid of his idiot Italian allies who had launched a senseless attack on Greece and were getting a good ass kicking from the Greeks.
Japan too could probably have saved the day if they had at some stage attacked the USSR from the east, even on a relatively small scale.

Germany's two big allies were worse than useless, only the small allies in eastern Europe and Finland gave military support of any real value to the German effort.

ChrisJ84

Crock Rock wrote: »

If Hitler didn't invade Russia in Operation Barbarossa, could he have kept Stalin somewhat on his good side and thus not have been defeated? (or at least not as quickly as he was defeated).

The only chance for Barbarossa to be successful was to knock out the Soviet Union quickly, and that chance disappeared when they had to fall back from Moscow in late 1941. Between that and the US entering the war, it seem's pretty safe to say that German defeat was inevitable from December 1941. If they had taken Moscow, and if the US hadn't entered the war at that point...who knows.

meathstevie

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

The only chance for Barbarossa to be successful was to knock out the Soviet Union quickly, and that chance disappeared when they had to fall back from Moscow in late 1941. Between that and the US entering the war, it seem's pretty safe to say that German defeat was inevitable from December 1941. If they had taken Moscow, and if the US hadn't entered the war at that point...who knows.

Napoleon took Moscow, probably one of the greatest empty box conquests of a city ever.

He was left with an urban version of scorched earth. No food, no fuel no nothing. We all know how that story ended. Very comparable to the faith of the Nazi's in Russia.

ChrisJ84

meathstevie wrote: »

Napoleon took Moscow, probably one of the greatest empty box conquests of a city ever.

He was left with an urban version of scorched earth. No food, no fuel no nothing. We all know how that story ended. Very comparable to the faith of the Nazi's in Russia.

Oh absolutely, the only thing we can say with any degree of certainty is that when Germany failed to take Moscow in late 1941 they lost any chance they had of knocking the Soviet Union out of the war. If they had taken Moscow, then who knows what would have happened.

I read a book recently that said that although Germany had well trained and equipped armed forces and many highly able generals, we should be grateful that in Hitler they were led by a strategic dunderhead who thought of himself as the greatest warlord who ever lived.

TheValeyard

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Oh absolutely, the only thing we can say with any degree of certainty is that when Germany failed to take Moscow in late 1941 they lost any chance they had of knocking the Soviet Union out of the war. If they had taken Moscow, then who knows what would have happened.

I read a book recently that said that although Germany had well trained and equipped armed forces and many highly able generals, we should be grateful that in Hitler they were led by a strategic dunderhead who thought of himself as the greatest warlord who ever lived.

I suppose to many Germans he looked like the greatest warlord of his time, conquering most of Western Europe, British forces retreated from Dunkirk, unable to reach Norway, and stuck at home, not to mention the amount of territory he took from the Russia in the first three weeks of War.

I wonder if he hadn't got bogged down with the Italian exercises of stupidity or had taken Russian oil fields rather than Stalingrad how it would have played out.

Not to mention If the Japanese had attacked the Soviet Union and not USA how history might have played out.

I do remember reading a book before that claimed Stalin was stunned about the Nazi invasion as he genuinely thought Hitler would not attack.