Dublin More Expensive to Rent in Than Paris

KevinCavan

You have to laugh at this country sometimes!:-)
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0313/1036064-dublin-rents-figures/

milhous

An awful lot more places to rent. Its supply and demand issue here. Also, ever get the train in from CDG..? now they have a homeless problem. Not 10k people on either rent allowance or in hostels/hotels.. actual real homelessness

KevinCavan

You have to laugh at this country sometimes!:-)
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0313/1036064-dublin-rents-figures/

devlinio

I'd rather live in Dublin than Paris tbh.

Squatter

KevinCavan wrote: »

You have to laugh at this country sometimes!:-)
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0313/1036064-dublin-rents-figures/

I'm rather proud of the fact that my country's Capital city has finally made it into the top 5!

You may wish to live in third world squalor on the banks of the Seine and if you do, then Ryanair have low cost flights to what they describe as "Paris" every day!

Now, away with you - and bon voyage!

KevinCavan

You are a “Squatter,” so rents don’t affect you.:-)

amcalester

Standards are probably higher in Dublin.

Know a girl with a new place in Paris, it’s bedsit with a shared bathroom down the hall.

Not really comparable to anything in Dublin due to regulations.

Idbatterim

Absolute farce. Paris has world class culture, architecture, great transport system and Dublin has... temple bar! The rents here are scandalous, there is a huge amount of land in and around Dublin that can be developed. But we have real visionary governance, residential blocks towering up to eight floors in the docklands etc. thousand of people making the miserable commute to there every day and thousands living in the locality for nothing courtesy of the tax payer, in their “forever homes”... total banana republic!

Idbatterim

sugarman wrote: »

Dont believe everything you read!

If you're going by that nonsense "research" published by global mobility expert ECA International doing the rounds today via the various new outlets its based on a 3 bed apartment in Dublin.

Almost all apartments are 1 and 2 bed, where 3 was always at a premium. So now with a massive shortage they're in even higher demand thus skewing the figures even further.

New apartments in fernbank in Dublin 14 are two k plus for a one bed , you’re right, they are cracking value. Shout out to varadkar Murphy and co. They’ll will be cracking out the champagne behind closed doors. The peasants can become slaves to the banks , speculators, “professional landlords” etc ... the homeowners going to sleep at night and waking up richer in the morning on paper, they love it too ... not too forget the entirety of decision maker vested interests here, pretty much all homeowners, I’ve a sneaking suspicion they might have an interest in rising prices ...

milhous

Idbatterim wrote: »

New apartments in fernbank in Dublin 14 are two k plus for a one bed , you’re right, they are cracking value. Shout out to varadkar Murphy and co. They’ll will be cracking out the champagne behind closed doors. The peasants can become slaves to the banks , speculators, “professional landlords” etc ... the homeowners going to sleep at night and waking up richer in the morning on paper, they love it too ... not too forget the entirety of decision maker vested interests here, pretty much all homeowners, I’ve a sneaking suspicion they might have an interest in rising prices ...

So you don't own a property is what you're saying?

Squatter

KevinCavan wrote: »

You are a “Squatter,” so rents don’t affect you.:-)

Ah, but I'm also a taxpayer so am contributing to the rents paid by tens of thousands of indigenous non-squatters!

Idbatterim

milhous wrote: »

So you don't own a property is what you're saying?

An advocate of the outrageous prices and rents I take it? It’s a moral disgrace, they are delighted with the run away prices and they are playing a blinder !

milhous

Idbatterim wrote: »

An advocate of the outrageous prices and rents I take it? It’s a moral disgrace, they are delighted with the run away prices and they are playing a blinder !

Nope. Bought at a reasonable price that we can afford. House for life so fluctuating house prices don't interest me.

On the other hand you pretty much demonise anyone who owns a property in your last post. Pretty bitter.

Idbatterim

milhous wrote: »

Nope. Bought at a reasonable price that we can afford. House for life so fluctuating house prices don't interest me.

On the other hand you pretty much demonise anyone who owns a property in your last post. Pretty bitter.

Of course I don’t. I demonize the government for making it far more difficult and expensive that it needs to be for any buyer , including yourself ...

Samuel T. Cogley

Idbatterim wrote: »

New apartments in fernbank in Dublin 14 are two k plus for a one bed , you’re right, they are cracking value. Shout out to varadkar Murphy and co. They’ll will be cracking out the champagne behind closed doors. The peasants can become slaves to the banks , speculators, “professional landlords” etc ... the homeowners going to sleep at night and waking up richer in the morning on paper, they love it too ... not too forget the entirety of decision maker vested interests here, pretty much all homeowners, I’ve a sneaking suspicion they might have an interest in rising prices ...

That's what people wanted! An end to the amateur landlord and it done 'properly'. Can't complain now when you're properly being done!

L1011

Merged threads in to the one with the intelligible title

Graham

I propose a new title:

Both 3 bed unfurnished, mid-range, three-bedroom apartments in Dublin are more expensive than Paris

JJJackal

Where does everyone think we should rank?

If rent was lower, it would suggest that incomes have decreased and the economy may not be doing as well. If a mid range 3 bedroom apartment was very cheap (I agree the figure quoted is far too expensive) no one would build the apartments or be interested in setting up companies to rent out apartments imo.

Our mid range 3 bed apartments maybe far superior to Paris mid range 3 bed. Its worth noting that there are 1 bed "apartments" on sale in Paris - 10 sq m for 70,000 to 90,000.

Anteayer

Dublin (and several other cities) are in a rental bubble. Until you get more supply, it's not going to be fixed and that supply will take time to catch up.

We are still looking at the aftermath of the 2008 crash. The construction sector was producing at peak 100,000 new homes per year. It went from that to almost zero for several years.

Paris is at least 10 times larger than Dublin. It also has a lot more residential areas and decent apartments, giving it density, livability and a real urban vibe.

Paris also has really nice quality of life in a lot of areas : great public spaces, cultural facilities, phenomenaly good transit systems that are very cheap to use.

Dublin isn't awful but it's massively overpriced.
That being said, Paris also has social problems and areas that are far, far worse than Dublin and homelessness that includes actual shantytowns at the moment. It has plenty of extremely grim and depressing suburbs as well as all that grand architecture.

Dublin is a simply relatively small city with a boom and a shortage of supply. It's not bad but it's like comparing Dublin to a small regional town. They're not remotely comparable.

Graham

We also have practically zero unfurnished, 3 bed apartments which appears to be what was used as a benchmark.

Anteayer

The lack of unfurnished apartments in Ireland makes longer term renting very unattractive.

DubCount

Paris doesn't have the RTB, anti-landlord regulations and an anti-landlord government pandering to an anti-landlord media. Paris doesn't allow non-paying tenants to squat for 2 years without paying rent. Paris does not introduce new rental rules every 6 months.

If you don't want high rents, you cant run a rental market in the way we do.

Graham

Anteayer wrote: »

The lack of unfurnished apartments in Ireland makes longer term renting very unattractive.

It also means benchmarking against unfurnished apartments is meaningless.

While Dublin rents are undoubtedly expensive, I doubt we would be as high in the list if 2 bedroom furnished apartments were used as a comparator.

Anteayer

It still wouldn't be accurate as furnished apartments in Paris and most cities tend to be for higher end, short term lets.

The situation in Ireland is they're often very cheaply furnished and the vast majority of rental properties are in that category.

Also the regulations are very high in most European countries. France isn't that well regulated, but I would say the issue in Ireland isn't that the regulations are tough, they're just badly implemented and lack efficient enforcement in both directions.

rightmove

DubCount wrote: »

Paris doesn't have the RTB, anti-landlord regulations and an anti-landlord government pandering to an anti-landlord media. Paris doesn't allow non-paying tenants to squat for 2 years without paying rent. Paris does not introduce new rental rules every 6 months.

If you don't want high rents, you cant run a rental market in the way we do.

Absolutely . Sounds ridiculous if it wasn't true

Subutai

DubCount wrote: »

Paris doesn't have the RTB, anti-landlord regulations and an anti-landlord government pandering to an anti-landlord media. Paris doesn't allow non-paying tenants to squat for 2 years without paying rent. Paris does not introduce new rental rules every 6 months.

If you don't want high rents, you cant run a rental market in the way we do.

The French instead have the Commission Départementale de Conciliation which deals with landlord and tenant disputes. Its process are required to be exhausted before you have access to the Courts. Evicting a tenant by yourself in France is punishable by three years imprisonment, you must go through a lot of hoops, including the huissier de justice who landlords here would go mad if they'd to deal with. You cannot evict at all between November and March. You cannot evict for sale. Judges regularly set up payment plans or provide long periods before an eviction can take place (up to three years) depending on the circumstances of the tenant.

Parisian landlords would certainly disagree with you about not having an anti landlord government, given that they were subject to strict rent controls until a court struck them down in late 2017. A new regime is being introduced by the Elan law, passed late last year.

Old diesel

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

That's what people wanted! An end to the amateur landlord and it done 'properly'. Can't complain now when you're properly being done!

If we are going down a route of lifetime renting - then you possibly need a different level of long term commitment to the market from suppliers. And I mean to the rental market NOT individual tenants - as bad tenants have to be able to be hooted out quickly.

Unfortunately what we are looking at right now is the extreme of the REIT.

Just because REITs are high end pricing doesn't mean a professional set up is inherently bad.

Having people randomly entering the market and leaving it as it suits them - isn't really a basis for a sustainable housing model.

Theres nothing wrong with somebody just buying a house and renting but we should aim for a professional approach.

Rather then this idea of Amateur landlords.

This is more to do with developing a profressionally run sector rather then just big or small landlords.

You can be a landlord with one property and take a very professional approach to said property. That's fine.

It's the random in and out of the market that's a real challenge.

You need backstop solutions - we need as a wider housing policy look at how to deliver the required supply and who is best to do it.

Samuel T. Cogley

Old diesel wrote: »

If we are going down a route of lifetime renting - then you possibly need a different level of long term commitment to the market from suppliers. And I mean to the rental market NOT individual tenants - as bad tenants have to be able to be hooted out quickly.

Unfortunately what we are looking at right now is the extreme of the REIT.

Just because REITs are high end pricing doesn't mean a professional set up is inherently bad.

Having people randomly entering the market and leaving it as it suits them - isn't really a basis for a sustainable housing model.

Theres nothing wrong with somebody just buying a house and renting but we should aim for a professional approach.

Rather then this idea of Amateur landlords.

This is more to do with developing a profressionally run sector rather then just big or small landlords.

You can be a landlord with one property and take a very professional approach to said property. That's fine.

It's the random in and out of the market that's a real challenge.

You need backstop solutions - we need as a wider housing policy look at how to deliver the required supply and who is best to do it.

What's good for the goose...

Many LLs would be delighted with long-term leases but the security needs to work both ways. A tenant looking to break such a lease should face a penalty.

Subutai

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

What's good for the goose...

Many LLs would be delighted with long-term leases but the security needs to work both ways. A tenant looking to break such a lease should face a penalty.

Tenants who break a fixed term lease already do face a penalty. The cost of assignment can be levied in the tenants, in the RTB case Oglesby v Miszkiel & Anor the landlord obtained an award of €490.77 from tenants who breached a fixed term lease by assignment for his costs in checking references and the preparation of new contracts.

Tenants who simply leave without assigning their tenancy are also liable for the cost of that to the landlord, i.e. the loss of rent between tenants. This can be retained from the deposit.

DubCount

Subutai wrote: »

The French instead have the Commission Départementale de Conciliation which deals with landlord and tenant disputes. Its process are required to be exhausted before you have access to the Courts. Evicting a tenant by yourself in France is punishable by three years imprisonment, you must go through a lot of hoops, including the huissier de justice who landlords here would go mad if they'd to deal with. You cannot evict at all between November and March. You cannot evict for sale. Judges regularly set up payment plans or provide long periods before an eviction can take place (up to three years) depending on the circumstances of the tenant.

Parisian landlords would certainly disagree with you about not having an anti landlord government, given that they were subject to strict rent controls until a court struck them down in late 2017. A new regime is being introduced by the Elan law, passed late last year.

If there is 2 months rent arrears, the Landlord engages a "Huisser", who manages the process directly to the courts. Judges automatically grant an eviction date for 2 months after the court hearing, unless a credible repayment plan for arrears can be agreed. Landlords can also reasonably collect on rent arrears through the courts, unless the tenant becomes bankrupt (when tenant assets are sold and apportioned to creditors).

There is a clear distinction between lease agreements that are designed to be long term (unfurnished) and those that are intended to be short term (furnished).

Termination for sale is allowable, but there are mechanisms whereby the tenant must be notified of the sales conditions in advance so that they can appeal if the terms are not realistic or above market value etc.

I'm not saying that the French system is the holy grail for landlords, but at least they tenants have responsibilities there that they are expected to adhere to. The Irish system is a charter for rogue tenants to ride the system with impunity - and all tenants in Ireland are paying a premium to facilitate the rogues.

jay0109

This is what happens when your a small city in a small country with zero control of your borders within a common travel area of 510m people. Plus you are also actively encouraging tens of thousands more from outside the EU to move here to work.
And there's also thousands of illegals somehow managing to make it to our shores to claim asylum or work in the shadows.

Samuel T. Cogley

Subutai wrote: »

Tenants who break a fixed term lease already do face a penalty. The cost of assignment can be levied in the tenants, in the RTB case Oglesby v Miszkiel & Anor the landlord obtained an award of €490.77 from tenants who breached a fixed term lease by assignment for his costs in checking references and the preparation of new contracts.

Tenants who simply leave without assigning their tenancy are also liable for the cost of that to the landlord, i.e. the loss of rent between tenants. This can be retained from the deposit.

We were referring to a proper framework for long term leases. For example 10-20 years.

Subutai

DubCount wrote: »

If there is 2 months rent arrears, the Landlord engages a "Huisser", who manages the process directly to the courts. Judges automatically grant an eviction date for 2 months after the court hearing, unless a credible repayment plan for arrears can be agreed. Landlords can also reasonably collect on rent arrears through the courts, unless the tenant becomes bankrupt (when tenant assets are sold and apportioned to creditors).

There is a clear distinction between lease agreements that are designed to be long term (unfurnished) and those that are intended to be short term (furnished).

Termination for sale is allowable, but there are mechanisms whereby the tenant must be notified of the sales conditions in advance so that they can appeal if the terms are not realistic or above market value etc.

I'm not saying that the French system is the holy grail for landlords, but at least they tenants have responsibilities there that they are expected to adhere to. The Irish system is a charter for rogue tenants to ride the system with impunity - and all tenants in Ireland are paying a premium to facilitate the rogues.

The framework here also looks great if you simply set out what the mechanism is on paper. We all know the reality of an under resourced arbitration system and court system makes the practice different from the theory. If Huissers were part of the system here the forum would be brimming with complaints about them, delays in the process, getting caught in the winter break, appeals, and judges who are biased towards tenants.


Tenants are expected to adhere to their obligations here also, which are greater than those in France. Unless you are renting to indigent tenants it is not difficult to enforce them. If you are renting to indigent tenants then your problem will be the same the world over.

road_high

Work colleague renting a brand new build one bed apartment in Glasgow -£400 per month. Be over double that in Dublin if you get even get one. Insanity