site potential - percolation test

abnormalnorman

Is there any way I can show indicatively that a site would not pass the percolation tests, or does not have site potential, without digging the large percolation holes, or appointing an engineer?

Can i do a indicative perc test without extensive digging?

sydthebeat

No

abnormalnorman

sydthebeat wrote: »

No

what if the soil is only aboit 2 ft above the water table? not much site potential there i would imagine, in lay mans terms!

sydthebeat

abnormalnorman wrote: »

what if the soil is only aboit 2 ft above the water table? not much site potential there i would imagine, in lay mans terms!

how do you know where the water table is without digging a hole.....

im talking in general terms.. not site specific

ive seen fields full of rushes pass no problem, and ive seen green luscious grass fields fail for a high water table....

abnormalnorman

sydthebeat wrote: »

how do you know where the water table is without digging a hole.....

im talking in general terms.. not site specific

ive seen fields full of rushes pass no problem, and ive seen green luscious grass fields fail for a high water table....

well in this particular case, i can dig a 2 ft cubed hole with a shovle and after a few heavy showers of rain the water will fill to about 1 ft from top and stay there for about 2 days!

im wondering in this case do i still need to get a digger in to dig the 2 meter deep holes or whatever, or is it relatively safe to say it would be a fail. i suppose that's my question really.

sydthebeat

Surface water into a marly soil won't generally percolate well..... And isn't a reflection on the percolation value is the site

However the first test holes to be tested are between 600mm and 1000mm deep.... So if you want to dig those by hand, off you go.

It's only when these fail do you test the top soil holes.

abnormalnorman

ok thanks.

so what rate of percolation would i be looking for in the 600mm and 1000mm deep holes?

And whats the diameters?

rayjdav

abnormalnorman wrote: »

ok thanks.

so what rate of percolation would i be looking for in the 600mm and 1000mm deep holes?

And whats the diameters?

Attached link to EPA manual for perc tests. Have a good read, says it all.. :rolleyes:

http://www.epa.ie/pubs/advice/water/wastewater/code%20of%20practice%20for%20single%20houses/Code%20of%20Practice%20Part%201%202010.pdf

Lumen

This is all pointless since you don't own the land and are trying to gather evidence to negotiate down a price.

Land is worth whatever price the buyer and seller can agree on.

sydthebeat

If it's a site being purchased, then it should be purchased subject to permission

abnormalnorman

Lumen wrote: »

This is all pointless since you don't own the land and are trying to gather evidence to negotiate down a price.

Land is worth whatever price the buyer and seller can agree on.

how is it pointless if it helps my argument that the land does not have the same site potential the seller is claiming, when agreeing price?

abnormalnorman

sydthebeat wrote: »

If it's a site being purchased, then it should be purchased subject to permission

i dont want the land for a site, and won't be looking for planning. i want it for other purposes.

sydthebeat

abnormalnorman wrote: »

i dont want the land for a site, and won't be looking for planning. i want it for other purposes.

That's not how sales work.

You can't buy a range rover and look to pay a cheaper price because you'll only ever drive it on country roads....

The seller sets the price.

If you don't want to pay that, so be it.

abnormalnorman

sydthebeat wrote: »

That's not how sales work.

You can't buy a range rover and look to pay a cheaper price because you'll only ever drive it on country roads....

The seller sets the price.

If you don't want to pay that, so be it.

Thanks but i dont agree. Buyer obviously has to know what they are buying, to negotiate the price with the seller. Has the land realistic site potential or not? If not then its not worth site value, and price to be negotiated based on that. If seller doesnt agree then thats no problem, buyer tells him to keep it then!!

sydthebeat

abnormalnorman wrote: »

Thanks but i dont agree. Buyer obviously has to know what they are buying, to negotiate the price with the seller. Has the land realistic site potential or not? If not then its not worth site value, and price to be negotiated based on that. If seller doesnt agree then thats no problem, buyer tells him to keep it then!!

Nope, again that's not how it works.

Seller puts their value on it, buyer decides if that value is commensurate with how they value it.

It's not called "speculating" for nothing.

The opportunity cost is the difference between these due to future decisions

If it has site potential then it's sold subject to planning.

If seller doesn't want that arrangement then let them sell as agriculture value, or whatever value they see fit.

If buyer doesn't agree with the value then walk away.
If buyer wants the land badly... Then negotiate

abnormalnorman

sydthebeat wrote: »

Seller puts their value on it, buyer decides if that value is commensurate with how they value it.

Shur thats exactly what im saying . Buyer needs to put their value on it also, so as to negotiate with seller.

Thats why im trying to find out its percolation ability, as a factor in determining its value

sydthebeat wrote: »

If it has site potential then it's sold [/quote

.. . . but if buyer doesnt want the land for a site . .. . then he's obviously not going to pay for perc tests and apply for planning, just to prove that the land does not have site potential.

my3cents

I really don't see the OP's argument here? If the percolation test fails then aren't there other methods all be it more expensive of dealing with the waste water?

woohoo!!!

What do you want the land for?

sydthebeat

my3cents wrote: »

I really don't see the OP's argument here? If the percolation test fails then aren't there other methods all be it more expensive of dealing with the waste water?

A high water table can mean a refusal of permission regardless of the treatment proposed.

Not every piece of land is suitable for housing

abnormalnorman

my3cents wrote: »

I really don't see the OP's argument here? If the percolation test fails then aren't there other methods all be it more expensive of dealing with the waste water?

yes, but more expensive methods would again influence value of the "site"

abnormalnorman

woohoo!!! wrote: »

What do you want the land for?

bees

abnormalnorman

sydthebeat wrote: »

A high water table can mean a refusal of permission regardless of the treatment proposed.

Not every piece of land is suitable for housing

exactly. so the buyer obviously needs to determine this somehow so as to negotiate price with seller??!

abnormalnorman

my3cents wrote: »

I really don't see the OP's argument here? If the percolation test fails then aren't there other methods all be it more expensive of dealing with the waste water?

if you dont see my argument here. . .. then please answer me this, who in this case pays for the perc tests to be done?

abnormalnorman

sydthebeat wrote: »

A high water table can mean a refusal of permission regardless of the treatment proposed.

Not every piece of land is suitable for housing

whats your definition of a high water table then?

fepper

Do you want this land at agricultural value only

woohoo!!!

abnormalnorman wrote: »

woohoo!!! wrote: »

What do you want the land for?

bees

Where do you need good percolation, topsoil or further down. If topsoil, what's growing there gives a good indication. If there are houses in the vicinity, check their percolation tests.

my3cents

abnormalnorman wrote: »

if you dont see my argument here. . .. then please answer me this, who in this case pays for the perc tests to be done?

You do, why would the seller? The land can be sold subject to planning permission so you are left with all the bills for getting the planning permission. As you don't want to do that then that leaves it open for someone else to buy.

sydthebeat

abnormalnorman wrote: »

whats your definition of a high water table then?

Have a read through that EPA document

abnormalnorman

fepper wrote: »

Do you want this land at agricultural value only

yes, definitely

sydthebeat

abnormalnorman wrote: »

exactly. so the buyer obviously needs to determine this somehow so as to negotiate price with seller??!

Nope. Youre assuming the seller doesn't want to maximise the price they can get for the land.

The seller sets the price subject to planning, the buyer agrees and goes about the process of preparing a planning application...of which the perc tests are an initial part.

abnormalnorman

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Where do you need good percolation, topsoil or further down. If topsoil, what's growing there gives a good indication. If there are houses in the vicinity, check their percolation tests.

i dont need any percolation, just the land.

There is a house right beside this piece of land. Would perc tests results for this house be a good indicator? thanks for that helpful advice, which i will look into

my3cents

Who is going to sell land at an agricultural price to someone who could be making a story up about bees so they can make a profit and sell the land themselves with fpp.

The seller may also be selling the land for housing because they need that much money. No point selling it at an agricultural price if it won't get the required amount.

Neighbors here sold land as a "garden" to owners of an old cottage just along the road to me. Not long after the combined house and new "garden" were on sale for 500k with fpp. Price is a bit steep so its been on the market a while but it will sell eventually.

abnormalnorman

sydthebeat wrote: »

Nope. Youre assuming the seller doesn't want to maximise the price they can get for the land.

The seller sets the price subject to planning, the buyer agrees and goes about the process of preparing a planning application...of which the perc tests are an initial part.

well if the water table is about a foot down, then it's pointless going any furthur. Anyone can see that. which goes back to my initial query.

sydthebeat

abnormalnorman wrote: »

well if the water table is about a foot down, then it's pointless going any furthur. Anyone can see that. which goes back to my initial query.

And back to my initial question

Round and round we go

abnormalnorman

my3cents wrote: »

Who is going to sell land at an agricultural price to someone who could be making a story up about bees so they can make a profit and sell the land themselves with fpp.

well i dont think it has planning potential and am not willing to spend €2-3k finding out.
Let the seller show me that it will pass perc tests so, then he can ask his site value.

Wildly Boaring

abnormalnorman wrote: »

well i dont think it has planning potential and am not willing to spend €2-3k finding out.
Let the seller show me that it will pass perc tests so, then he can ask his site value.

But

He wants to sell as site and you are not the only other person on earth.

sydthebeat

You're looking at about €800 tops.

abnormalnorman

sydthebeat wrote: »

You're looking at about €800 tops.

€800 for what, sorry?

woohoo!!!

A seller isn't going to do percolation tests for you, period and certainly not for land at agricultural prices. You don't want to spend money to find out what the tests would tell you for using the land for bees, your query doesn't add up. Anyway I'm outta here

abnormalnorman

woohoo!!! wrote: »

A seller isn't going to do percolation tests for you, period and certainly not for land at agricultural prices. You don't want to spend money to find out what the tests would tell you for using the land for bees, your query doesn't add up. Anyway I'm outta here

just as well woohoo. i dont think you inderstand the issue. thanks anyway

woohoo!!!

abnormalnorman wrote: »

woohoo!!! wrote: »

A seller isn't going to do percolation tests for you, period and certainly not for land at agricultural prices. You don't want to spend money to find out what the tests would tell you for using the land for bees, your query doesn't add up. Anyway I'm outta here

just as well woohoo. i dont think you inderstand the issue. thanks anyway

Yep i understand you're being cheap, so good luck

abnormalnorman

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Yep i understand you're being cheap, so good luck

shur what's wrong with that?

my3cents

abnormalnorman wrote: »

shur what's wrong with that?

I think the problem is its unlikely to work.

sydthebeat

abnormalnorman wrote: »

€800 for what, sorry?

A percolation test

abnormalnorman

sydthebeat wrote: »

A percolation test

ok. i thought it would be more. thanks very much sydthebeat . maybe I'll discuss with seller then and will propose that i get perc tests done to help determine the value of the land.

abnormalnorman

abnormalnorman wrote: »

ok. i thought it would be more. thanks very much sydthebeat . maybe I'll discuss with seller then and will propose that i get perc tests done to help determine the value of the land.

unless of course i can first determine that the water table is too high, as per your earlier comments sydthebeat

sydthebeat

abnormalnorman wrote: »

unless of course i can first determine that the water table is too high, as per your earlier comments sydthebeat

The thing is... if the seller wants to maximise the value, they wouldn't or shouldn't accept anything else as "evidence" of unsuitability of the site for housing

Wildly Boaring

sydthebeat wrote: »

A percolation test

800 to 1000 plus the digging for a full report.

Hired a 3t myself cost about 100 cash

abnormalnorman

sydthebeat wrote: »

The thing is... if the seller wants to maximise the value, they wouldn't or shouldn't accept anything else as "evidence" of unsuitability of the site for housing

i understand that, thanks. but seller may have no other choice if they wants to sell it at all.

fepper

I've never heard of anyone buying a site for agricultural purposes,I suppose you might have a better chance of buying the whole field if they are willing to sell and a high agricultural value is usually paid if good land

Metric Tensor

Leave the vendor with his roadside holding regardless of whether it is a site or not and offer him agriculture value with a small premium to buy a piece of his land away from the road that will never be a site.

Obviously pay for a right of way into it too.

Most farmers have bits and pieces of out fields and scrub that are feck all use for farming but ideal for bee hives.