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Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    It's not emission free, they are using fossil fuels (hydrogen). Just the emissions are made during electrolysis as opposed to at point of driving



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    Would be nice to see these actual EV buses in service. I havent seen them yet anyway



  • Registered Users Posts: 741 ✭✭✭ d51984


    Its a disgrace Joe!



  • Registered Users Posts: 741 ✭✭✭ d51984


    That's actually for Limerick to train drivers in on before the rest arrive, not sure why it took a detour to Cork though.

    Its a disgrace Joe!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    I would love to hear some initial feedback on how the EW's have done on their recent route training trials on the 44 & the 47 with Dublin Bus.

    Has all the talk about their batteries making their bus more reliable a big feature of these trials? More importantly are the EW's more reliable than the PA's/PAL's?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭ john boye


    They took one bus out on a couple of test drives and you expect them to have learned all that from it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭ Padre_Pio


    The energy efficiency of hydrogen is crap though.

    You use electricity to split water into hydrogen, then transport it, store it, then turn it back into electricity to run a car or bus.

    Just put that initial electricity directly into a battery. Hydrogen has a limited shelf life as a usable fuel for busses and cars. Batteries already dominate and will continue to do so.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,154 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    I agree completely, where it is possible you should use batteries. However when you get to larger, heavier vehicles, longer distances and quick turnaround times, batteries, at least for the moment, just don't have enough performance and that is where you use Hydrogen.

    Aircraft, ships, big trucks will all likely need to use Hydrogen.

    EV buses make sense for city services, slow average speeds, frequent stopping, shorter overall distances, make them ideal for batteries.

    Commuting and intercity type services are a different story, long distances, infrequent stopping and motorway speeds, simply makes batteries not an option for them and hydrogen the only option.

    Of course over time, as battery technology get better, higher density, cheaper prices, faster charging, we may see them start to cut into some of these longer distance services, though it is likely to be a gradual transition.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    Alexander Dennis have released details of two more of their EV bus range. These new fuel cell electric buses are being built separately from the partnership between BYD and ADL.

    It is noted in the article above that Hydrogen models of these buses will be also planned to be offered to various bus operators in the near future.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭ hairymaryberry


    I'm no expert on electricity but the word is before DB can get electric buses in large number the electricity supply to the depots will have to be upgraded, new substations or something like that? So i guess if we see the roads outside depots being dug up electric buses are on the way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭ p_haugh


    As far as I'm aware, currently both Ringsend and Summerhill have planning permission granted for the addition of EV Substaions (and relavent infastructure associated with that)



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    It takes 3kWh of electricity to "generate" 1kWh of hydrogen. If you're using fossil fuels like currently they are using, then the hydrogen is no better than any other fossil fuel.

    Give me the 3kWh of electricity in a battery, much better efficiency that way. Hydrogen cars get 50-60mpge, EVs are over 100 usually. Hydrogen is not green, it is not zero emissions (other than at point of use - it's essentially just a really long tailpipe), and it's not efficient.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    Batteries don't have enough performance? LOL.

    Batteries in current cars deliver over 1000hp and close on that in torque. No problem powering buses or trucks either. Plenty of EV trucks and buses in Norway.

    Hydrogen is only on the table because it suits the oil companies - distribution network - and governments - easier to tax as you can't generate it at home



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,154 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    "It takes 3kWh of electricity to "generate" 1kWh of hydrogen. If you're using fossil fuels like currently they are using, then the hydrogen is no better than any other fossil fuel."

    Sigh, Hydrogen has zero tailpipe emissions, no PM's or NOX emitted, so therefore is better for the environment and peoples health then Diesel.

    In terms of greenhouse emissions, we should preferably be using green hydrogen, which means hydrogen produced by renewables, which makes it better then fossil fuels.

    "Batteries in current cars deliver over 1000hp and close on that in torque. No problem powering buses or trucks either. Plenty of EV trucks and buses in Norway."

    Double sigh. Performance in terms of range and recharging speed, not torque obviously. I know perfectly well that EV's have amazing torque, acceleration, etc.

    The issue is range, can you stuff enough batteries in an intercity coach (while still having enough room for bags and staying under weight limits) to do Cork to Dublin non stop at motorway speeds and even if it makes it, can you recharge at either end fast enough for the relatively quick turn around time to do the same on the return journey?

    Of course, I know that batteries are 3 to 4 times more efficient then hydrogen in terms of electricity usage. So wherever possible it is better to use batteries rather then Hydrogen. However the current battery technologies have a number of limitations which means they aren't suitable for every application. If the batteries don't have enough range or are too heavy or are too expensive or the recharge time too slow, then Hydrogen is the next best option.

    And of course battereis will hopefully continue to get better over time. A few years ago battereis weren't good enough to power double decker city buses, but now they are. Maybe in a few years we will get to the stage where they are good enough to cover BE style commuter services and maybe a few years after that non stop intercity services. But in the meantime the commuter and intercity services have to use hydrogen for now.

    And even when those applications switch to batteries, we we still need hydrogen to power aircraft and ships and to help balance the grid when the wind isn't blowing and to produce ammonia for fertiliser, etc. Hydrogen will be part of our future energy mix.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    I have just spotted this video on Youtube.

    It will go live at 8pm tonight.

    I'm glad that the PA's are getting more work on more routes within Dublin Bus. Donnybrook even had a few of them out on the 84X to Kilcoole in recent times which is great to see.

    Also one of the PA's was seen on the beginning of the Toy Show last night with Ryan Tubridy being the driver.

    Did anyone here see it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭ p_haugh


    There's been a few photos of PAs on the 145 out to Ballywaltrim as well. Seems some drivers that have gotten the PA training like to take them out in the evening!



  • Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭ Trouwe Ier


    Is there any update on the works at Athlone or progress on the EWs at Ballymena?



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,446 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    Battery technology isn't at the point where that is possible.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,231 ✭✭✭ donkey balls


    An Irish transport company has put in an order for some Volvo electric trucks, The range is about 300km.

    So they be only used on local runs around Leinster, As for Hydrogen buses Aberdeen has being running them the last 7/8 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,877 ✭✭✭ whyulittle




  • Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭ Trouwe Ier


    That was an interesting clip alright, but some of the Twitter responses were disheartening.

    One correction, I would make is that there is no new depot, though the Minister looked especially bleary-eyed on camera.

    I noted on another forum that VWL172 was out in service yesterday. As a "08" VWL, its days must surely be very lowly numbered now.

    There does not seem to be much happening at Roxboro, in advance of the arrival of the 20 Electroliners.

    Post edited by Trouwe Ier on


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    That was a good video about the electric single deckers in Athlone. I wasn't surprised to hear in the video that they don't emit sound from within the battery pack. It is completely silent like the EW's.

    That is going to provide a really different experience in how you would wait for it at the bus stop. It would give an indicator that there more people willing to track their buses on their phone or constantly keep an eye out for it while at the bus stop from now on.

    There was a single decker on trial with Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann that had also run silently while it emitted water from the tailpipe.

    It is a good sign to see this technology launched within the irish bus market from 2023. It is hopefully going to be quite a sight to see the ADL single deckers on the O route in Dublin City Centre by then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    The main owner or owners of the Buses, Trains & Aviation page on Facebook has said that the EA's based in Athlone are being put out for revenue earning service from the 12th of January. There are two more photos of the EA's going out for driver training in Athlone which were taken about 5 days ago.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    An unidentified PA just went past my house around Newtownpark Avenue on the 7d to Dalkey this evening. The 7b to Shankill also passes outside the house as well. However I have never seen a PA on it yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭ Trouwe Ier


    I have passed Roxboro Depot a few times on trains over the past ten days but only once when it was bright and the yard was relatively empty (last Wednesday 4/1/23 c. 9:05).

    I could see no evidence whatsoever of charging infrastructure having been installed.

    It is possible and perhaps likely, that a lot of sub-surface work was done when they modernised the office buildings in 2021/22 e.g. ducting. However, I saw no plinths, wheel stoppers, bases etc.

    Bearing in mind that it took at least 3 months to undertake the "civils" at the much smaller Athlone depot, I doubt we'll see any EWs gliding in and out of Roxboro before Easter.

    And of course, nothing will charge up, without a substation being commissioned (planning permission has been granted for one between the shed and the soon-to-be-relaid Foynes line).

    Slightly off topic, but apart from VWL162 which had operated in passenger service earlier that morning, I saw no other VWL there either. VWLs 315/316/317 are the only ones I have seen on the streets in recent weeks and off-peak, there is still a VWL PVR of 3 so, assuming that those three were out, I wonder if VWLs 313/318/325 have migrated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,877 ✭✭✭ whyulittle




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