Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

PAD85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967826#Comment_117967826

Just found out that the NTA have actually reviewed the Optares, Enviro400EV, and a new bus from Wrights

dublinman1990

Apparently Wrights have a new and improved Hydrogen double deck bus on the market which is notably more superior to the SG's.

Also all of the PA's that will be allocated to Ringsend & Phibsboro will be used on the C-Spine/52. There is an image below from Facebook to show how the PVR's will be spread over the new BusConnects routes. This PVR allocation sheet also includes the allocation of the 1 & the 120 which are meant run at Broadstone Depot in future.

The Tapatalk Forum has reported hat the PA's allocated to Phibsboro are meant to go on the 66 imminently until the C-Spine/52 is launched in late November. There is also talk that the C/Road PA's may go onto to run the 25's on the Lucan Corridor to allow the old routes switch over to the C-Spine using the Ringsend PA's from November.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968667#Comment_117968667

That would make sense and would be in line with what I expected. ADL Enviro400EV, Wrightbus Electroliner and Optare Metrodecker EV.

The Electroliner is great on paper and I think Wrightbus' build quality has improved a lot since the rattly SGs. They really need orders for electric buses to stay in business but, if I'm honest, I'd question if Wrightbus could deliver this large order too. They lost a lot of staff.

bk

"Apparently Wrights have a new and improved Hydrogen double deck bus on the market which is notably more superior to the SG's."

That is great to hear, though Hydrogen buses would be for BE commuter type services, they aren't suited to DB city type services, those will be all EV.

Though if you watch the video linked about about the Spainish double decker bus, battery sizes are getting bigger and bigger, even the commuter type services might end up battery rather then hydrogen in time.

"That would make sense and would be in line with what I expected. ADL Enviro400EV, Wrightbus Electroliner and Optare Metrodecker EV."

Yes, those are the three companies that I assumed bid on a tender like this. Afterall they are the only EV double decker manufacturers, I'd be shocked if any of them didn't bid. Possibly a dark horse Chinese or mainland European manufacturer might bid too, but less likely.

Of course the NTA have to look at all valid bids, but that doesn't mean it is the one selected.

Honestly I'd be very surprised and disappointed if ADL don't win. The 400ER seems to have proven very popular with both drivers and passengers and ADL seemed to have proven that they can easily deliver large numbers of buses required without issue. The 400EV looks to be basically the same bus as the 400ER, just with the obvious drive train and battery differences, so largely the same good build quality, etc. and I'd assume ADL would have no problems in delivering the same numbers of 400EV's, which would be a major question mark if Optare and Wrights can do the same.

With ADL having delivered on the 400ER so well and having just won the single decker contract with the 200EV, I'd assume they are the strong front runner.

One question mark that it is in my mind that hasn't been raised yet, is in addition to manufacturing capacity, it is battery supply. A major advantage of the ADL bid, is that they are in a joint partnership with BYD, one the the worlds largest battery manufacturers, so they would have no problems getting batteries. Wrights and Optare on the other hand have to buy batteries in from third party companies. At the moment batteries are in extremely high demand, with many massive car companies struggling to secure sufficient supply for their EV's, thus many companies are opting to build their own battery factories. I'd be very worried about these two companies being able to secure sufficient supply for such a large order.

It will certainly be interesting to see what happens.

Peregrine

"165 new fully electric buses for our cities and towns, 24 hybrid-electric buses for urban PSO bus fleets" announced in Budget 2022.

The 165 is a mixture of the 45 single-deck electrics from the tender for up to 200 announced earlier in the year and 120 double-deck electrics from the tender for up to 800 which hasn't been announced yet.

The 24 further hybrids is in addition to the 280 ordered from the tender for up to 600 to meet demand until the double deck electrics arrive.

https://twitter.com/EamonRyan/status/1447947057218658305?s=20

Peregrine

Speaking of. Is it just me or is the legroom upstairs on the new PAs much better than the SGs or anything else in the fleet?

Edit: I think there are 41 seats upstairs in a PA vs 53 seats in an SG. Probably not 100% accurate. Four additional seats downstairs though.

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010590#Comment_118010590

Yes it's much better. I assume the recessed rear upstairs has taken a row of seats out and allowed more space between seats.

dublinman1990

That's great news to hear from Eamon Ryan's dept. Will the 24 additional ADL hybrid buses be going to Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann?

TranslatorPS

I'm willing to bet that the 24 hybrids would be to cover the W4/W6 tender, which has a declared PVR of 18 attached to it.

Similarly a portion of the 81 regional buses could well be to cover the 101/133 tender, where a PVR of 27 has been specified, seeing possibly (my numbers) 34 to 37 buses allocated to it.

dublinman1990

Some of the new BÉ PAL's have gone to Roxboro Garage in Limerick. They have been getting registered with Limerick plates although a lot of their new plate numbers are mixed up with new diesel cars currently being registered in Limerick.

PAD85

That's great to hear about the Limerick PADs. Hopefully they'll be in service before the end of the year.

On another note, any updates on the NTA EV bus tender?

belfast stephen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087005#Comment_118087005

have heard Wrighbus have got it due to issues with ADL and the build quality of there buses

PAD85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087281#Comment_118087281

Really? The Enviro400ER's build quality is very good compared to Wrightbus, especially in recent years.

Plus I'm surprised that they potentially went with the Electroliner rather than the E400EV, considering Alexander Dennis won the single-deck EV tender

But generally speaking, if they did go with Wrightbus, I would prefer the NTA choose the Streetdeck body rather than the out-of-date SG-style front as I really like the Streetdeck body more.

Honestly, as much as I like Wrightbus, I would prefer the NTA went for the E400EV as in my opinion, they are perfectly suited for cities such as Dublin.

dublinman1990

I'm a little bit surprised that the NTA have gone with the Electroliner from Wrights. What are the supposed benefits of buying into the Electroliner as opposed to having the 400ER's. I would like to know how much they have jumped up the ranks in terms of quality reliabilty since it is apparently regarded as a improvement when compared with the SG's. Would any of the bus operators in the UK who have bought any of the Electroliners share the same view.

Also what did the NTA find as the main faults of having the 400ER's in their own fleet when they did their review of these buses along with eyeing up both the Electroliner & Optare Metrodecker.

The 400ER's are allocated on a Dublin Bus route near me which is the 4 from Monkstown Avenue to Harristown. I have not travelled on these buses yet.

However when I have seen on them out on the road in Blackrock; I would regard them as having the status of providing the next generation bus fleet that will be provided to us in the future. It's clean, it's inviting & it's looks attractive to the person's eye.

That would be my general impression of what a next generation bus should look like to me in the future when it's being interpreted from BusConnects as it's gradually being promoted to people who live in our cities right around the country.

Would our opinions on the ER's, including my own, give the same weighting if the Electroliner came onto Dublin's streets sometime in the future. If you were looking at the physical features of the Electroliners. Do you think they would hold the same status as the 400ER's if you were using them for the very first time?

Peregrine

Wrightbus have started delivering the Electroliner to Translink. I think this may be actually the first battery electric bus delivered by Wrightbus. I don't know of any other customers.

https://facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1892294154264501&id=477850625708868

PAD85

Have Dennis started building the 45 electric single deckers yet?

whyulittle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118164131#Comment_118164131

A framework agreement was signed in July of this year between the National Transport Authority and Alexander Dennis Limited for the delivery of 200 zero emission battery-electric buses. An initial order of 45 buses for Athlone and the Dublin Metropolitan Area commencing in 2022 was also agreed.

A spokesperson for the National Transport Authority said this week that the design of "eleven battery-electric single-deck buses destined for Athlone town services is well advanced and assembly of the chassis of the first bus has commenced."

https://www.westmeathindependent.ie/2021/11/12/fully-electric-bus-fleet-in-athlone-by-end-of-2022/

Jamie2k9

How many of the PA or Enviro400ER (is there a difference) fleet is there in service? and why is there still AXs in service with the fleet growing?

A few minor points:

• PA is way to loud
• Leap reader, again badly placed and obstructed by the green rail
• The Stop Button placed so high up on the seats behind the center doors
• Lighting is very bright

bk

Enviro400ER is the manufacturers model number. PA is Dublin Buses designation for them and Bus Eireann use PAD. But they are all the same.

it looks like 280 have been delivered across both DB and BE, DB have PA280 now.

There are about 30 odd AX’s still in service. The rest in storage, the numbers shift as they have pulled some out as needed. With BusConnects it looks like the fleet size is expanding, so some of the older buses might stick around a bit longer then might otherwise have been expected with the arrival of the 400ERs

“PA too loud.” I don’t think they are actually any louder then the SG’s etc. It is more of a case of it being more obvious as the bus accelerates off stops, as it transitions from running on battery to the Diesel engine kicking in. They are so quiet when running on battery, that it makes more jarring and obvious when the engine kicks in. When an engine is running constantly, your brain tends to just filter it out. Running on battery, makes me excited for when full EV buses arrive.

“Bright lighting”, I think most passengers would prefer that. Feels safer then the older buses with poor lighting.

Some interesting psychology around the two above topics.

TranslatorPS

DB have no more than 120 in service, and BE only the Galway 40, so despite PA280 having been delivered, there's hardly 160 in service at the moment. Dublin Bus' second allotment is arriving out of order, with Phibsboro's 135~17x and Ringsend's 25x~280 having arrived first.

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189062#Comment_118189062

I've noticed that the PA announcements are much louder alright alright. I can even hear them with my noise cancelling headphones up to the max volume. I remember a similar problem with the early GTs when they were new and they sorted it out so I'm sure they'll do the same here.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189623#Comment_118189623

Oh, definitely, I should have clarified that. There seems to be a lot of buses being shuffled around different depots and PA's being briefly being put on a route and then taken back off again.

I suspect we will see a lot of the PA's in service over the next few weeks, in particular as the C-Spine launches.

TranslatorPS

Pardon me, my own records show about 124 PAs in service at the moment, or at least to have entered service at any given stage. Summerhill are reportedly still waiting on one of the 211 PAs (PA68? I think?), but I'm not bothered to account for that at this point.

Jamie2k9

Never knew they had over 100 in service already. I notice they appear now and again on the 41, given its an airport service I presume they don't have a variant with extra luggage space yet?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189185#Comment_118189185

Older buses yes but the lighting on the 5Gs was fine. I know its a minor point and Irish Rails ICRs had the very same complaints when they arrived.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189694#Comment_118189694

I should add I was on 6 this week and 3 had no PA so assuming the driver turned it off. They have been in service for a while and surly there is a volume adjustment, upstairs is much worse.

The center doors closing and the change from a continuous tone is also a big improvement.

TranslatorPS

They're popping up on the 41 since they were temporarily removed off the 123 due to road/junction size issues in Marino (the PAs don't have the best turning circle apparently). Summerhill drivers have been explicitly told to not take PAs onto the 16s, so at that point there aren't many more routes left in the garage.

bk

"Older buses yes but the lighting on the 5Gs was fine. I know its a minor point and Irish Rails ICRs had the very same complaints when they arrived."

Yes, the SG's are excellent too, when I say older buses, I mean the much older single door buses. I assume the difference is the use of modern LED lights in the newer buses. LED's allow you to go much brighter while using much less power.

I would have been one of the people who complained about the ICR's and Mark4's being too bright (and noisy)! They are different types of services. I feel on city bus/luas/dart type services, where you are typically only on it for 30 minutes to an hour and often squished in with a lot of other people, people prefer bright lighting, as it helps to feel safer. On an ICR/Mark4 where you are on it for 2 to 3 hours, I feel people would generally prefer to sit back, relax and maybe even try and sleep. The ICRs/Mark4 are not conducive to a relaxing long distance journey.

As a result, I much prefer taking the intercity coaches, they turn off the lights and no annoying loud announcements constantly, much more relaxing.

I don't think I've ever been on any intercity type service anywhere in mainland Europe which were so bright and noisy. Very different experience to riding comfortable intercity trains in Italy.

BTW I still see the odd PA on the 123, but less frequently compared to a few weeks ago. A pity, I hope they are back soon in numbers.

Busman Paddy Lasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195886#Comment_118195886

Few of them on the 1. Started looking lately and saw PA267, 268, 269, 271 and 280. I guess they're from the Ringsend allocation you listed previously.

ITV2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118194218#Comment_118194218

The drive cannot turn the audio announcements off (if Only).

dublinman1990

One of the new ADL Hybrids has just been seen on 1 of RTÉ One's new Christmas idents right before the start of Thirteen Days with Kevin Costner.

dublinman1990

The new PAD's have now begun their new rollout in Limerick since Friday.