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Italy vs Ireland match thread, 24-2-2019.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    is_that_so wrote: »
    troyzer wrote: »
    I'm not saying that Cronin is a great thrower but it wasn't his fault today. The calls were all over the place.
    I'd say it was a collective screwup but he's not the greatest at all.

    You pick him for his insane carrying, not his throwing.

    I actually agree with the idea of him in the 16 jersey. Best is a better nuts and bolts hooker but Cronin off the bench is class. His carrying is unreal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    troyzer wrote: »
    Furlong, SOB, POM, Murray, Sexton, Earls, Kearney, Stockdale and Aki all started. That's 9 players who are Ireland starters at full strength.

    Wales had 3: Navidi, Adams (debatable) and Davies.

    I think we can discount Aki from that - so basically half a team of changes. That is a huge amount. Particularly having 5 of 8 of the pack changing.

    The performance was crap, I'm not really arguing that - but it was far from Ireland's "first-choice" team.

    It was much closer than Wales.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I think we can discount Aki from that - so basically half a team of changes. That is a huge amount. Particularly having 5 of 8 of the pack changing.

    The performance was crap, I'm not really arguing that - but it was far from Ireland's "first-choice" team.

    Sure but it was probably considered a good chance for those outside the 23 to stake a claim and none of them really did.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭mangobob


    Fair play to Joe. Just talking sense.

    Didn't see the interview. What did he say?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,011 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    Maybe I'm deluded but i still think we have a good chance at grinding out two more wins.

    Wont win it but I would take 4/5 wins any year. Wales will be incredibly tough though.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Maybe I'm deluded but i still think we have a good chance at grinding out two more wins.

    Wont win it but I would take 4/5 wins any year. Wales will be incredibly tough though.

    If we get Henshaw and Ringrose back plus a big kick up the arse, we'll probably beat France.

    But we're going to get battered in Wales without a dramatic improvement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Maybe I'm deluded but i still think we have a good chance at grinding out two more wins.

    Wont win it but I would take 4/5 wins any year. Wales will be incredibly tough though.
    I think the potential is there on paper but from what we've seen on the pitch perhaps a longer shot in reality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭Pepp1989


    troyzer wrote:
    You pick him for his insane carrying, not his throwing.


    Shouldn't be picking a hooker who can't throw. No matter how good he is around the park. Cronin's throwing has been his achilles heel for years and it hasn't improved. Not test standard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,296 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Maybe I'm deluded but i still think we have a good chance at grinding out two more wins.

    Wont win it but I would take 4/5 wins any year. Wales will be incredibly tough though.

    Anything is possible but I wouldn't be betting on it. But with a good performance against France and then the added motivation of ending a grandslam dream in Cardiff it could very well happen.

    Could.

    But I can't see it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,280 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Fair play to Italy! They were up for it.
    COS is not in any danger. The u20's are good and Benetton are playing very well.
    As far as us?
    Very poor. Very limited. JS sticking to out of form half backs.
    Some lads did ok! Kilcoyne was fine. Dillane was good.
    I thought Jordi was good. He got through a lot of work.
    Henderson was good. VDF was very good.
    Otherwise, Furlong was ok, Cronin was poor. Roux was ok. SOB was poor. POM was good. Scannell was not great, but he wasn't on long enough. Ryan and Jack went ok.
    Murray was awful. Sexton was poor.
    Stockdale was immense, imo. Farrell was good. Conway was soso. He didn't really get to show much. Earl's was very good and Kearney is very limited. He wasn't poor but. He seems slow.
    I guess, we should be content to have a week off.
    There's so much wrong with this team, it's difficult to to find the deficiencies.
    France will beat us if we continue to play like turds.
    Our set piece is not great, line outs, and there's just so much predictability about us.
    It's strange that I keep hoping somehow the ball ends up in Stockdales hands.
    Even Sexton looks lost.
    Toner is vital! No doubt about it. He changes our game so much. Secure line out ball and a workhorse. He may not be as athletic as Dillane or Henderson but he makes us better imo.
    I think Murray needs to bench it be omitted. He's been so bad it's worrying. He's slow at the rucks and his kicking has been off.
    2 weeks is enough time to get it together.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,259 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Pepp1989 wrote: »
    Shouldn't be picking a hooker who can't throw. No matter how good he is around the park. Cronin's throwing has been his achilles heel for years and it hasn't improved. Not test standard.

    Same could be said for Best.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 184 ✭✭Donald Trumped


    I'm a huge Johnny Sexton fan. But his lukewarm embrace to Jack Carty, when the Leinster man heading off the pitch for the Connacht man, (not too dissimilar to golfer Bryson deChambeau's antics in the European Open last July), who was making his 1st start in a Irish jersey was so unprofessional. Sexton's body language today was of a man that needs to take a complete break from the game. Likewise for Murray. Whether Schmidt and the IRFU will give them this much needed time off is another question.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    Fair play to Italy! They were up for it.
    COS is not in any danger. The u20's are good and Benetton are playing very well.
    As far as us?
    Very poor. Very limited. JS sticking to out of form half backs.
    Some lads did ok! Kilcoyne was fine. Dillane was good.
    I thought Jordi was good. He got through a lot of work.
    Henderson was good. VDF was very good.
    Otherwise, Furlong was ok, Cronin was poor. Roux was ok. SOB was poor. POM was good. Scannell was not great, but he wasn't on long enough. Ryan and Jack went ok.
    Murray was awful. Sexton was poor.
    Stockdale was immense, imo. Farrell was good. Conway was soso. He didn't really get to show much. Earl's was very good and Kearney is very limited. He wasn't poor but. He seems slow.
    I guess, we should be content to have a week off.
    There's so much wrong with this team, it's difficult to to find the deficiencies.
    France will beat us if we continue to play like turds.
    Our set piece is not great, line outs, and there's just so much predictability about us.
    It's strange that I keep hoping somehow the ball ends up in Stockdales hands.
    Even Sexton looks lost.
    Toner is vital! No doubt about it. He changes our game so much. Secure line out ball and a workhorse. He may not be as athletic as Dillane or Henderson but he makes us better imo.
    I think Murray needs to bench it be omitted. He's been so bad it's worrying. He's slow at the rucks and his kicking has been off.
    2 weeks is enough time to get it together.

    Can't say I understand this logic. If he were head of rugby development then maybe but the head coach of a national team should not be judged on the results of teams he doesn't coach. Benetton are going well because they are very well coached, by Kieran Crowley. They are very tough and well organised, Italy are neither.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    troyzer wrote: »
    You pick him for his insane carrying, not his throwing.

    I actually agree with the idea of him in the 16 jersey. Best is a better nuts and bolts hooker but Cronin off the bench is class. His carrying is unreal.
    But a hooker is there for the nuts and bolts of the position first and foremost. Being an unreal carrier is a bonus but worth feck all if the basics of position are missing/poor


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    troyzer wrote: »
    You pick him for his insane carrying, not his throwing.

    I actually agree with the idea of him in the 16 jersey. Best is a better nuts and bolts hooker but Cronin off the bench is class. His carrying is unreal.
    But a hooker is there for the nuts and bolts of the position first and foremost. Being an unreal carrier is a bonus but worth feck all if the basics of position are missing/poor


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Same could be said for Best.
    He's much more reliable at this level and he gets the calls right far more often. There is a reason why this was Cronin's first 6N start.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 501 ✭✭✭squawker


    Sexton's body language today was of a man that needs to take a complete break from the game. Likewise for Murray. Whether Schmidt and the IRFU will give them this much needed time off is another question.

    don't be ridiculous, both players are just searching for form at the moment


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    squawker wrote: »
    don't be ridiculous, both players are just searching for form at the moment

    You mean like finding themselves? :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,237 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    I'm a huge Johnny Sexton fan. But his lukewarm embrace to Jack Carty, when the Leinster man heading off the pitch for the Connacht man, (not too dissimilar to golfer Bryson deChambeau's antics in the European Open last July), who was making his 1st start in a Irish jersey was so unprofessional. Sexton's body language today was of a man that needs to take a complete break from the game. Likewise for Murray. Whether Schmidt and the IRFU will give them this much needed time off is another question.

    What a load of total BS.

    Murray needs games but not at international level.

    Sexton is undercooked. A break is then last thing he needs


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,946 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Schmidders not looking happy, and rightly so. This was quite a worrying performance, lineout wobbled massively at times, some of it down to the thrower, some of it not. When you consider the amount of handling errors, if you fixed even half of them the scoreline would have changed dramatically and we'd be saying 'we had a few uncharacteristic handling errors'. We just haven't fired

    Initial thoughts....

    Killer - think he was a good shout for MOTM. Brilliant in the loose in the first half when virtually the whole team was playing poorly, 10 carries, 5 defenders beaten, did well in the scrum, 10 tackles none missed. Excellent day at the office and I think laid down a marker as securing his place as backup. It won't happen but would like to see him start another in a 'bigger' test in the next couple of weeks to see where he's at, this was 'only' Italy, but very encouraging performance .

    Cronin - lineout woes, some his fault, some not. Thought he tackled well (10/0) and had one or two good carries. The fact that he was hauled ashore at 47 mins spoke volumes. Didn't take his chance to be honest, I'd hope Scannell gets the shout next time

    Furlong - Thought he was great in the first half when we were under the cosh. 13 carries, not making positive yardage but took on loads of dirty ball. Did manage to bust through them once.

    Roux - Did well for the try but apart from that I was not too impressed overall with him - he only made 4 tackles, missed 2. Bundee Aki made 4 tackles and he went off injured early. Contrast his work rate with Dillane's. Maybe someone can point out the other work he got through?

    Dillane - massive work rate. Had one bad spill but I think his overall contribution was huge - twenty tackles, missed a couple but what an engine. And was he off the pitch temporarily at one point? Super day at the office.

    POM - not sure he deserved MOTM but he was up there. Part of a backrow where SOB was off the pace and Jordi Murphy looked a bit lost at times. Dominated the lineout, stole ball on the ground, 14 tackles with none missed. Did gave away a couple of penalties but he plays on the edge like that if you took that away from him you wouldn't get things like turnovers out of him.

    SOB - Vying with Murray for poorest player on the pitch today. Looked underpowered in contact, poor passing, gave away 3 penalties. Think he's under real pressure from Leavy and VdF now.

    Murphy - Mixed bag. Initially I thought he was anonymous but to be fair looking through the stats he did take on lineout ball and have a decent amount of tackles which I didn't notice during the game proper. That said, he was poor with ball in hand, 11 carries and made no ground (3m), did use good footwork to get himself out of trouble on occasion. I think we missed Stander massively today. Conan would have offered more I think too. Not sure I'd like to see him line up at 8 in a WC

    Murray - Got the all important try with one of his trademark snipes, lovely placekicking but apart from a couple of periods where he linked up well over the phases, was quite poor over the period of the whole game. Stripped in contact or at the base of the ruck/maul far too much, nearly charged down once. I'm sure he'll be thrown to the wolves on here but I wouldn't be dropping him at all. This is probably his first dip in form across his career that I can remember.

    Sexton - I don't know what to make of him, he didn't take the game by the scruff of the neck, wasn't able to take kicks by the end. Awful pass to Earls off our lineout. Some poor restarts. Why wasn't he subbed? I'd lay the blame at Schmidder's door there. Took a lot of punishment as usual (some of it illegal). Made the most tackles in the backline and had a couple of nice moments in attack. Mixed bag for me bordering on poor.

    Stockdale - super in attack, what a prospect he is. Menace with ball in hand from the first to the 80th minute. I think this might get lost in all the praise but he was a little bit shaky in defence a couple of times, a couple of poor reads, turned his back on an attack and some missed tackles. Poor offload at the very end there too (he had run half the length of the pitch to be fair!). I don't want it to seem like I'm down on him, could have been MOTM - the positives vastly outweigh that though, brilliant to have this level of scoring threat on the left wing now

    Aki - think we saw his importance today, it took us a very long time to restructure when he went off and it was only the second half when the backline looked more settled.

    Farrell - thought he had a super game, made absolutely massive yardage with ball in hand, soft hands to put Earls through for the clean break that we couldn't finish off. Solidified himself as a backup to Ringrose. Someone said we missed Ringrose today but I don't think we did as much as that to be honest, Farrell

    Earls - super finish for the try, unlucky not to bag another. Made some very impressive decision in defence, particularly in the lead up to the Italian try where he held off tackling the kicker, beat the cover only to get fouled off the ball and was back up to prevent the other support runner from scoring. On the negative side did get bounced once or twice, think he turned his back once but got back to make the cover tackle after Kearney missed his man. Could have been MOTM. Joined Hickey as joint-third highest all-time scorer. Up there as one of our best wingers of all time you'd have to say with the likes of Hickey, Geoghan and Bowe.

    Kearney - I'm sure I'll shock people but I thought he was poor today. Turnstile in a one-on-one, which he always has been, and didn't offer anything in attack at all where all his counterparts made hay at times. Poor spilled ball under no pressure. Good clearance kick at one point, another was kept infield but not sure was that on purpose. I just thought he didn't get as involved as he could have in general and another game has passed where we could have looked at one of the incumbents.

    Conway did well with limited ball, bounced once in the tackle once but didn't see as much ball as Stockdale did. I thought the lineout looked more stable when Scannell was on, but then someone pointed out he lost 2 balls so maybe that's confirmation bias on my part. Maybe he missed a bit closer than Cronin (!), who seemed to overthrow. I thought Schmidders could have brought on subs earlier (Scannell aside).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Probably not a bad result for Ireland - better that sweeping all before us before the World Cup. A team that wins even when playing badly is fundamentally a good team.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭TimHorton


    10 is a problem, Carty gets 2 mins and knocks on , Where do go when Sexton/Carberry are out - Is Byrne the answer ??


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,728 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    I'm a huge Johnny Sexton fan. But his lukewarm embrace to Jack Carty, when the Leinster man heading off the pitch for the Connacht man, (not too dissimilar to golfer Bryson deChambeau's antics in the European Open last July), who was making his 1st start in a Irish jersey was so unprofessional. Sexton's body language today was of a man that needs to take a complete break from the game. Likewise for Murray. Whether Schmidt and the IRFU will give them this much needed time off is another question.

    I was just going to say this. If I had Schmidt's ear what I would say is Sexton & Murray are more then likely your 2 starter for the World Cup so due to that you need to have an eye to then. So you need to tell both they will not be playing anymore in the 6 Nations (if that means giving up on it then so be it) go back to Munster & Leinster and get your fitness and health back for the World Cup. I am not a great fan of the IRFU telling the provinces to curtail timing of players but in this instance it may help. Of course they need to play especially with the Champions Cup but get them fit and healthy


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 184 ✭✭Donald Trumped


    squawker wrote: »
    don't be ridiculous, both players are just searching for form at the moment

    I think its a lot more than both men are just "searching for form at the moment". Both men looked dead in their feet and are mentally and physically in a bad place at the moment. To say that Sexton and Murray are not playing to the 2018 levels would be an understatement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,728 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    TimHorton wrote: »
    10 is a problem, Carty gets 2 mins and knocks on , Where do go when Sexton/Carberry are out - Is Byrne the answer ??

    Carty was on for only a couple of minutes how about give him a chance. Carberry had hid mistakes when he cam on


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,728 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Probably not a bad result for Ireland - better that sweeping all before us before the World Cup. A team that wins even when playing badly is fundamentally a good team.

    A bit of cohesion and good play would not go amiss for 80 minutes


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,442 ✭✭✭its_phil


    TimHorton wrote: »
    10 is a problem, Carty gets 2 mins and knocks on , Where do go when Sexton/Carberry are out - Is Byrne the answer ??

    Really? A two minute cameo and a knock on from a pass that went behind the runner and Carty trys to clean off the floor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,728 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Burkie1203 wrote: »
    What a load of total BS.

    Murray needs games but not at international level.

    Sexton is undercooked. A break is then last thing he needs

    I agree but they need both need an International break


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭TimHorton


    Carty was on for only a couple of minutes how about give him a chance. Carberry had hid mistakes when he cam on

    FFS Ireland Caps should be deserved not handed out , Complete Joke to bring him on.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    I was just going to say this. If I had Schmidt's ear what I would say is Sexton & Murray are more then likely your 2 starter for the World Cup so due to that you need to have an eye to then. So you need to tell both they will not be playing anymore in the 6 Nations (if that means giving up on it then so be it) go back to Munster & Leinster and get your fitness and health back for the World Cup. I am not a great fan of the IRFU telling the provinces to curtail timing of players but in this instance it may help. Of course they need to play especially with the Champions Cup but get them fit and healthy

    Don't know if he has much of a choice in the matter, my (uneducated) reading is that the IRFU want centrally contracted players on the pitch as much as possible.


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