Seizure of cigarettes with duty paid from the EU

Crock Rock

If I purchase cigarettes in another EU jurisdiction which I plan to consume myself, rightfully (de jure) customs have no business seizing them, unless I am clearly trying to resell, ie bringing in several suitcases of several different brands from outside the EU.



Since the EU is effectively "one country" in terms of being a single market, if I buy cigarettes in Poland for my own consumption, then what right to customs have to seize them, regardless of how many I import?

My uncle is a chain smoker and smokes at least 40 a day. He is afraid of flying (or leaving the country at all, even by boat), but hypothetically, if he were to purchase 20,000 cigarettes (100 sleeves) for his own use and customs seized them, are they acting within the law?

Is it not violating the spirit of the single market?


Apologies for highlighting the part in bold above, there are several people on this website who don't properly read threads then pontificate on their soapbox.



Thanks.

ED E

Alcohol, Tobacco and Energy are not part of the single market as other goods are and excise is charged.

Its all here.
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/excise-duties-alcohol-tobacco-energy/excise-duties-tobacco_en

Thoie

Crock Rock wrote: »

If I purchase cigarettes in another EU jurisdiction which I plan to consume myself, rightfully (de jure) customs have no business seizing them, unless I am clearly trying to resell, ie bringing in several suitcases of several different brands from outside the EU.



Since the EU is effectively "one country" in terms of being a single market, if I buy cigarettes in Poland for my own consumption, then what right to customs have to seize them, regardless of how many I import?

My uncle is a chain smoker and smokes at least 40 a day. He is afraid of flying (or leaving the country at all, even by boat), but hypothetically, if he were to purchase 20,000 cigarettes (100 sleeves) for his own use and customs seized them, are they acting within the law?

Is it not violating the spirit of the single market?


Apologies for highlighting the part in bold above, there are several people on this website who don't properly read threads then pontificate on their soapbox.



Thanks.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/travel_to_ireland/customs_regulations_for_travellers.html

From that page

If your purchases are equivalent to or less than the quantities set out in the table below, they will usually be regarded as being for your personal use. If you exceed these quantities, you may have to demonstrate at Customs that the goods are for your personal use.

For most EU countries, 800 cigarettes is the normal level deemed "personal use" (though they make a bit of a mockery by then saying 300 is the limit for personal use from particularly cheap EU countries).

So technically, if he can demonstrate to customs that the 20,000 cigarettes are for his personal use, then it's OK. I just have no idea how you'd demonstrate that, short of sitting down and smoking them all in the arrivals hall (which would, in itself, be illegal). Maybe if you offered to open every pack and lick them?

Samuel T. Cogley

Saw a great one on one of those border programmes (UK I think). Made the guy and his missus roll one, they couldn't... goods seized.

Crock Rock

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Saw a great one on one of those border programmes (UK I think). Made the guy and his missus roll one, they couldn't... goods seized.

Saw that too, so the fella was probably trying to flog them off.


But in cases where the traveler is actually consuming the fags him/herself, then customs should not be seizing the fags.They are sourced within the EU!

coylemj

Crock Rock wrote: »

But in cases where the traveler is actually consuming the fags him/herself, then customs should not be seizing the fags.They are sourced within the EU!

But there has to be a defined limit for a bona fide importation for your own use. And if you attempt to bring in more than that quantity, they are considered an import for resale.

Let me put it another way..... if you accept that a guy in a van with 100,000 cigarettes is taking the p1ss claiming that they are for his own use, then it's simply a matter of where you define the limit. Otherwise you are saying that anyone can import unlimited quantities of tobacco from the EU tax-free.

Crock Rock

coylemj wrote: »

But there has to be a defined limit for a bona fide importation for your own use. And if you attempt to bring more than that quantity into the country, they are considered an import for resale.

No, there is no limit, per se. If you are above the "limit" you just have to demonstrate that they are for your own use. Under that amount it's no questions asked.



Customs and gardaí give contraband to family and friends.

L1011

^^ I believe the 300 for cheaper countries was time limited and expired without anyone bothering to update websites etc but I'm on mobile so can't dig it up now, or quote the post properly either

y0ssar1an22

That's only 500 days worth of cigarettes. Surely he can explain that easily enough

1874

why the need to bring in so many in one go?
might it not be better to try help him even reduce his use? than facilitate it,

even 20 sleeves or cartons if they are the 200 cig containers as Id have referred to them as, never heard of them called sleeves but I dont smoke, just replying out of sheer surprise, even 10000 would be a lot, what volume does 10000 or 20000 take up, be a car load (or small van) at least? surely, looks suspicious, you have to admit.
Hypothetically your Uncle or is he a real person? how did he get here?

Atlantic Dawn

L1011 wrote: »

^^ I believe the 300 for cheaper countries was time limited and expired without anyone bothering to update websites etc but I'm on mobile so can't dig it up now, or quote the post properly either

Yes that expired January 2018, it's 800 no questions from any EU member state now, after that they may ask questions as regards if they are for personal use. If OP's uncle gave him the money for the cigarettes even 800 they could be confiscated, if on the other hand the OP used his own personal money to purchase the cigarettes as a gift for his Uncle the 800 would be fine. How on earth OP could proove his Uncle's level of addiction to bring in 100 sleeves for him at a customs desk at an airport is beyond me, would 100% be seized in that case.

Steve

Disregarding the 'uncle' factor, is this not a presumption of guilt and therefore unconstitutional?

Average genuine smoker smokes a pack a day and more on the weekends etc... easily adds up to 10k smokes per year. Why can't they travel to another EU member state once a year and buy them?

Cookie_Monster

My father in law imported 3 pallets of wine for personal use from Italy without issue a few years ago, but they do get through 2-3 a day...

Buddy97mm

There's two parts to this

1. To be able to import any excisable product without duty from within the EU, you must accompany the product.

2. Because excisable products are controlled under EU legislation, there is a defined indicative limit, 800 in the case of cigarettes, beyond which the onus is on the person importing the product to prove it is for their personal use.

coylemj

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

My father in law imported 3 pallets of wine for personal use from Italy without issue a few years ago, but they do get through 2-3 a day...

The stock excuse for an instance of bulk importation of wine is an upcoming family wedding.

coylemj

Steve wrote: »

Disregarding the 'uncle' factor, is this not a presumption of guilt and therefore unconstitutional?

I'm sure if it was open to challenge, that would have happened a long time ago in relation to drugs. Where possession of above a defined threshold exposes you to the charge of possession with intent to supply.

Buddy97mm

coylemj wrote:

The stock excuse for a bulk importation of wine is an upcoming family wedding.

And proof of that may be sought

Steve

coylemj wrote: »

I'm sure if it was open to challenge, that would have happened a long time ago in relation to drugs. Where possession of above a defined threshold exposes you to the charge of possession with intent to supply.

There were cases in the UK where it was challenged and won, don't know about here but the same EU trade rules apply (for now )

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1407424/Customs-left-fuming-over-smokers-tobacco-victory.html

nuac

Mod
Crock Rock
Pls delete the extra large capital letters from your post. Users of this forum can read your posts without such emphasis

Cookie_Monster

coylemj wrote: »

The stock excuse for an instance of bulk importation of wine is an upcoming family wedding.

That covered the prosecco

Peregrinus

Steve wrote: »

Disregarding the 'uncle' factor, is this not a presumption of guilt and therefore unconstitutional?

It's not a presumption of guilt, because there is no criminal charge or criminal trial here.

The question is not whether the OP's uncle is to be fined or sent to prison; it's whether he is entitled to import tobacco, duty paid in another EU country, into Ireland without paying Irish excise. The answer to that question is yes, if the tobacco is for his own consumption. And that gives rise to a procedural question; how is his purpose in importing the tobacco to be established? And the answer to that question is: if he's importing 800 cigarettes or less, the onus is on the customs officials to establish that his purpose is not his own consumption, but if he's importing more than that, the onus is on him to establish that it is.

So, not a presumption of guilt; more a procedural rule for how we go about answering a question that needs to be answered in the operation of the customs regulations.

Victor

Steve wrote: »

Disregarding the 'uncle' factor, is this not a presumption of guilt and therefore unconstitutional?

Average genuine smoker smokes a pack a day and more on the weekends etc... easily adds up to 10k smokes per year. Why can't they travel to another EU member state once a year and buy them?

But you're talking about 2 years supply for the uncle.

Crock Rock

nuac wrote: »

Mod
Crock Rock
Pls delete the extra large capital letters from your post. Users of this forum can read your posts without such emphasis

Thanks, nuac. Apologies for that.


Mod
OK CR. Thanks for your cooperation

Muahahaha

Back in 2010 Joespehine Feehily of Revenue appeared in front of the Dail PAC and said that there is effectively no limit for cigarrettes or alcohol for personal use.

Holidaymakers returning from trips to Europe can effectively bring back as much alcohol and cigarettes as they like, Revenue has admitted.

Irish people travelling abroad are consistently warned that they can only bring back 90 litres of wine and 800 cigarettes with their holiday luggage.

But Joesphine Feehily, Head of the Revenue Commissioners, told the Dail Public Accounts Committee that cigarettes already have duty paid on them.

Ms.Feehily said that although there was limits advertised at ports and airports it would be extremely difficult for Revenue to prove in court that any number of cigarettes were not for someones personal use. A spokesperson for the Revenue later confirmed that the same applies to cheap alcohol bought within the EU. A person could say they were using the alcohol for a wedding or a similar event

https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20100312/textview

It seems that you could take in as much cigarettes as you like. But if you had 10,000 or something it is likely Customs would seize them and you'd have to go to court to try to get them back. But as the above says Revenue would not be very confident of winning that court case, they might not even let it get that far especially if they already know EU law permits unlimited amounts for personal use. In any case the 800 limit they advise on their website is codswhallop and they know it. Its been said that 3,200 is the guideline they work off before they will consider seizure.

AbdulAbhaile

Was there not a case in the UK that found it was unfair for a traveller to have to prove that goods were for their own use and that the onus was on the authorities to show that the goods were not for personal use.

Credit Checker Moose

Yes.

But they usually use a few trick questions to catch out offenders, like ask them to make a rollie.

Eric Cartman

coylemj wrote: »

The stock excuse for an instance of bulk importation of wine is an upcoming family wedding.

If your address was in a crappy enough area then the same case could be made for cigarettes.

Eric Cartman

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's not a presumption of guilt, because there is no criminal charge or criminal trial here.

The question is not whether the OP's uncle is to be fined or sent to prison; it's whether he is entitled to import tobacco, duty paid in another EU country, into Ireland without paying Irish excise. The answer to that question is yes, if the tobacco is for his own consumption. And that gives rise to a procedural question; how is his purpose in importing the tobacco to be established? And the answer to that question is: if he's importing 800 cigarettes or less, the onus is on the customs officials to establish that his purpose is not his own consumption, but if he's importing more than that, the onus is on him to establish that it is.

So, not a presumption of guilt; more a procedural rule for how we go about answering a question that needs to be answered in the operation of the customs regulations.

+1 , same with anything really

you have 100 in cash , if a gard wanted to prove you got it ilegally theyd have to make a case , you have 100,000 in cash and everyone is going to ask you questions about how you got it.

caught with 1 gram of cocaine - gardai would have to try make a case that its for sale , caught with 100 grams - onus is on you to try prove its personal use.

bonzodog2

So, does anyone know how many grams of rolling tobacco I can bring back from Portugal in a couple of weeks time?

Eric Cartman

bonzodog2 wrote: »

So, does anyone know how many grams of rolling tobacco I can bring back from Portugal in a couple of weeks time?

just dont come home with more suitcases than you left with and dont fill an entire case, its pretty reasonable to say that whatever amount cost you less than about 200 quid and if you can actually roll rollies is likely fine.

Squatter

Crock Rock wrote: »

Customs and gardaí give contraband to family and friends.

Untrue.

Squatter

bonzodog2 wrote: »

So, does anyone know how many grams of rolling tobacco I can bring back from Portugal in a couple of weeks time?

As many as you wish.

shamnspace

Iv read somewhere all the cigarettes need to be the same brand true or false anyone

Credit Checker Moose

It's not true but it makes things harder for you to prove to customs that it is all for your own personal use.

wonski

Personal use excludes bringing anything for your uncle wife or whatever. It is supposed to be for personal use if the person who brings them in.

As soon as you mentioned word uncle or anyone else, it is going to be seized.

batistuta9

bonzodog2 wrote: »

So, does anyone know how many grams of rolling tobacco I can bring back from Portugal in a couple of weeks time?

Revenue says a kilo.

The Enbalmer

Up to 3000 cigarettes may be brought in,duty paid from EU states for personal consumption.
The logical way they ascertain this is if the smokes are all the same brand.

Marcusm

wonski wrote: »

Personal use excludes bringing anything for your uncle wife or whatever. It is supposed to be for personal use if the person who brings them in.

As soon as you mentioned word uncle or anyone else, it is going to be seized.

There was a UK case which determined that bringing in cigarettes and alcohol to be given as personal presents or incidentals (eg gift in return for babysitting was used as as an example) was permissible as was the aggregating of orders for friends/acquaintances (my apartment block used to do a booze & cheese run once a year) provided there was no gain for the driver or those accompanying him.