Caster Semenya the South African female athlete

klaaaz

After much controversy about the Olympic champion, Caster has declared as being "born a woman" https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/47244017

"Ms Semenya is unquestionably a woman," said Semenya's lawyers

"Her case, however, is about the rights of women such as Ms Semenya, who are born as women, reared and socialised as women, who have been legally recognised as women for their entire lives, who have always competed in athletics as women, and who should be permitted to compete in the female category without discrimination."

This athlete as of writing has had a naturally high level of testosterone genetically since birth which has given her quite the physical strength in bone and muscle size advantage over her competitors hence her tremendous success.
She is not transgender, i'm wondering how the posters here who object to transgender people specifically in sports cope with the fact that Miss Semenya has very high testosterone levels which are more likely greater than a trans athlete and greater than non-trans female athletes.

What is your view on this matter, should Miss Semenya still be allowed to compete in female sports despite her high testosterone levels since birth which give her a huge unfair advantage over other female athletes?

ceadaoin.

She has no female reproductive organs and internal testes apparently. If this is true, she has basically been through puberty as a male and absolutely has an unfair advantage. It's not just about current testosterone levels It's not her fault, she has been raised from birth as a girl/woman, but it isn't fair on her competitors. I feel bad for everyone involved.

ceadaoin.

yamaha50 wrote: »

Sorry thats not an arguement
Next youll be whinging about serena williams playing maria sharipova

No. Why would I? Serena Williams is a female, with no ambiguity. She just happens to be great at tennis through hard work and natural strength.

Unless you are a racist and suggesting that a strong black woman is more like a man than a delicate white woman?

judeboy101

Simples, does she have a Y chromosome?

s4uv3

If she's declared a woman, she's a woman, and should be entitled to live as one. If you were to ban her from female sports on hormone grounds, you'd have to start testing the levels of all women who compete.

ceadaoin.

s4uv3 wrote: »

If she's declared a woman, she's a woman, and should be entitled to live as one. If you were to ban her from female sports on hormone grounds, you'd have to start testing the levels of all women who compete.

They do test everyone? Because people have been known to cheat by supplementing with testosterone

s4uv3

ceadaoin. wrote: »

They do test everyone? Because people have been known to cheat by supplementing with testosterone

Well now, everyday is a schoolday

klaaaz

More info https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/trackandfield/semenya-appeal-case-1.5019586

The IAAF published its research in a British medical journal in 2017, using data from athletes at the 2011 and 2013 world championships.

It claimed 7.1 in every 1,000 elite female athletes had elevated testosterone levels, 140 times higher than the general population. This helped give a supposed performance advantage of 1.8 to 4.5 percent in events from 400 to 1,500 meters.

IAAF rules to limit testosterone levels for female runners
The proposed solution was requiring women to medicate — likely with contraceptive pills — to bring testosterone levels below 5 nmol/L for at least six months before competing at elite events such as the Olympics, world championships or Diamond League meets.

Trans women after medical transition usually have testosterone levels below 2 nmol/L like most female born athletes. Caster is among a rare section of female born athletes with highly elevated testosterone levels throughout their life hence their physical advantage.

ceadaoin.

yamaha50 wrote: »

I am a black woman
Stop projecting your abnormal thoughts onto me please

Youre the one that suggested I would complain about Serena Williams playing against women when I wouldn't at all and never have. stop projecting your abnormal thoughts on to me please.

This is about a person with a y chromosome and testes (if the reports are true) competing against females. It's nothing to do with race.

FTA69

klaaaz wrote: »

More info https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/trackandfield/semenya-appeal-case-1.5019586


Trans women after medical transition usually have testosterone levels below 2 nmol/L like most female born athletes. Caster is among a rare section of female born athletes with highly elevated testosterone levels throughout their life hence their physical advantage.

It’s not all just down to test either though. It’s about having a male physique in general; Fallon Fox the MMA fighter had test levels below the women she was fighting but she still battered the f*ck out of her opponents largely due to the fact she had characteristics of a male physique.

Rachel McKinnon is another one, or Hannah Mounsey. Low test levels, but you’d be off your head thinking they don’t have physical advantages.

castletownman

Caster Semenya is an anagram of 'yes, a secret man'.

Coincidence?

klaaaz

FTA69 wrote: »

It’s not all just down to test either though. It’s about having a male physique in general; Fallon Fox the MMA fighter had test levels below the women she was fighting but she still battered the f*ck out of her opponents largely due to the fact she had characteristics of a male physique.

Rachel McKinnon is another one, or Hannah Mounsey. Low test levels, but you’d be off your head thinking they don’t have physical advantages.

But Caster is a woman who has a male physique, should she be banned for looking like a male?

ceadaoin.

klaaaz wrote: »

But Caster is a woman who has a male physique, should she be banned for looking like a male?

She is a person with a y chromosome and testes who went through a male puberty as a result.. Bit different than just a woman with a male "physique"

Trans women athletes are biological males so should not compete against females, regardless of their current testosterone level. The individual sports will come this conclusion eventually, hopefully before the complete decimation of women's sports.

Zamboni

I'm a big fan of choice.
Why not have different athletics organisations which have one based purely on biology with rules around chromosomes, genitalia, testosterone levels.
And one for identity where people can choose whatever division they want regardless of biology.
There are enough splits and codes in all sports anyway!
Then everyone can choose to participate in whatever the feck they want.

klaaaz

ceadaoin. wrote: »

She is a person with a y chromosome and testes who went through a male puberty as a result.. Bit different than just a woman with a male "physique"

Trans women athletes are biological males so should not compete against females, regardless of their current testosterone level. The individual sports will come this conclusion eventually, hopefully before the complete decimation of women's sports.

She is a woman, born female yet you want to deny her femininity. Has her chromosome test result being released?

Another woman Dutee Chand who has elevated testosterone levels but not with the male physique has stated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/27/opinion/caster-semenya-intersex-athletes.html

As Chand put it in her court testimony: “I am unable to understand why I am asked to fix my body in a certain way simply for participation as a woman. I was born a woman, reared up as a woman, I identify as a woman and I believe I should be allowed to compete with other women, many of whom are either taller than me or come from more privileged backgrounds, things that most certainly give them an edge over me.”

Should Dutee be banned too despite not having the male physique?

Stone Gossard

The thing I find disturbing is that the IAAF are proposing that she has to reduce her natural testosterone levels by injection...so she loses her bodily autonomy...and is expected to accept this.
Christ I want to see the IAAF taken to the cleaners over this

The Crowman

ceadaoin. wrote: »

No. Why would I? Serena Williams is a female, with no ambiguity. She just happens to be great at tennis through hard work and natural strength.

Unless you are a racist and suggesting that a strong black woman is more like a man than a delicate white woman?

FTA69

klaaaz wrote: »

She is a woman, born female yet you want to deny her femininity. Has her chromosome test result being released?

Another woman Dutee Chand who has elevated testosterone levels but not with the male physique has stated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/27/opinion/caster-semenya-intersex-athletes.html


Should Dutee be banned too despite not having the male physique?

No. Dutee is a woman therefore should be allowed to compete in women's sports. Transwomen are biological males therefore are out of place in women's sports. It's not that hard like.

As I said earlier, test levels aren't the be all and end all.

screamer

I feel very sorry for her, it must be tough to look like that and say you’re a woman. I can’t comment on the ins and outs of competitive sport but on a human level it must be hard for her.

Pulsating Star

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYpx2KkDzSg

klaaaz

FTA69 wrote: »

No. Dutee is a woman therefore should be allowed to compete in women's sports. Transwomen are biological males therefore are out of place in women's sports. It's not that hard like.

As I said earlier, test levels aren't the be all and end all.

You have conflicting opinions.

FTA69 wrote:

It’s not all just down to test either though. It’s about having a male physique in general
Low test levels, but you’d be off your head thinking they don’t have physical advantages.

Caster has the male physique but Dutee does not, both who have been born female have elevated testosterone levels gaining advantage in female sports.

Just because Dutee has not got the male physique to the eye, she passes the test in your opinion but Caster does not? That's rather judgemental of you.

FTA69

I haven't made one comment about Caster Semenya at all on this thread actually.

I have referenced biological males transitioning and then competing in the women's sports divisions and putting women at a massive disadvantage. I also said that people like Fallon Fox's 'I have low testosterone' justifications don't stack up because it doesn't counteract the effect of growing up with a male physique.

What you are trying to do with this thread is throw in some curveball about Semenya to try and portray the idea of transitioned men competing in women's sports as something that's grand. There is a massive difference between an intersex person like Semenya who was who she is since birth and someone transitioning in their 30s, entering women's competitions and then creaming the sh*t out of everyone while calling anyone who raises questions a 'transphobe'

Do you think Fallon Fox should have been competing in women's MMA?

klaaaz

FTA69 wrote: »

I haven't made one comment about Caster Semenya at all on this thread actually.

I have referenced biological males transitioning and then competing in the women's sports divisions and putting women at a massive disadvantage. I also said that people like Fallon Fox's 'I have low testosterone' justifications don't stack up because it doesn't counteract the effect of growing up with a male physique.

What you are trying to do with this thread is throw in some curveball about Semenya to try and portray the idea of transitioned men competing in women's sports as something that's grand. There is a massive difference between an intersex person like Semenya who was who she is since birth and someone transitioning in their 30s, entering women's competitions and then creaming the sh*t out of everyone while calling anyone who raises questions a 'transphobe'

Do you think Fallon Fox should have been competing in women's MMA?

Fallon should, she is female without the male physique(your words) unlike Semenya.

Semenya who was born female has the male physique like some transitioned trans women and has higher testosterone levels than other female competitors, do you think Semenya with her male physique should be able to continue to compete in female sports?

astrofool

Zamboni wrote: »

I'm a big fan of choice.
Why not have different athletics organisations which have one based purely on biology with rules around chromosomes, genitalia, testosterone levels.
And one for identity where people can choose whatever division they want regardless of biology.
There are enough splits and codes in all sports anyway!
Then everyone can choose to participate in whatever the feck they want.

The open category at the moment is the "male" category, anyone can compete in it (providing they pass the drug screenings).

The closed category is the female category, where the terms of entry are currently in a state of flux, and have always been problematic even going back to the Olympics in the 80's.

Even in the "open" category, there can be further divisions by age, weight and handicap.

If you're a born-female athlete with no complications, it's a pretty bad time to be trying to compete in sport, yet we also want to encourage more females into sport due to the drastic drop off that occurs during puberty. (and this is before looking at the "problem" that less females watch sports, so female athletes get less coverage and thus earn drastically less than their male counterparts, barring a couple of sports, where they are often rewarded more for being eye candy than for competing).

ceadaoin.

klaaaz wrote: »

Fallon should, she is female without the male physique(your words) unlike Semenya.

Semenya who was born female has the male physique like some transitioned trans women and has higher testosterone levels than other female competitors, do you think Semenya with her male physique should be able to continue to compete in female sports?

According to the IAAF

"However if a DSD athlete has testes and male levels of testosterone, they get the same increases in bone and muscle size and strength and increases in haemoglobin that a male gets when they go through puberty, which is what gives men such a performance advantage over women"

please explain how that doesn't also apply to trans women?

As it is, intersex women with y chromosomes and testes are dominating some women's athletic disciplines, such as the 800m. Given how rare those conditions are in the general population, those are some odds and show that they have an unfair advantage. It's crap for everyone, it's no ones fault but that's how it is. Sports should be about competing on a level playing field.

If trans women start to compete in any great numbers then that will obviously be the end of plain old xx women's success in sports. How is that fair?

Also, we've seen men pretend to be transgender to gain access to women's prisons, one even going so far as surgical procedures which he asked to be reversed upon his release. Are we really supposed to believe that the most competitive people on Earth would not take advantage? A mediocre at best athlete in the men's league could easily dominate against women. Just look at Rachel McKinnon.

astrofool

klaaaz wrote: »

Fallon should, she is female without the male physique(your words) unlike Semenya.

Fallon's bones will have developed as a male, and thus be heavier and denser than other females, this allows her to have more power in her strikes, and be more resilient to damage (though doesn't really enhance her skill as she got easily beaten by a more skilful opponent)

klaaaz

ceadaoin. wrote: »

According to the IAAF

"However if a DSD athlete has testes and male levels of testosterone, they get the same increases in bone and muscle size and strength and increases in haemoglobin that a male gets when they go through puberty, which is what gives men such a performance advantage over women"

please explain how that doesn't also apply to trans women?

As it is, intersex women with y chromosomes and testes are dominating some women's athletic disciplines, such as the 800m. Given jow rare those conditions are in the general population, those are some odds and show them have an unfair advantage. It's crap for everyone, it's noones faults but that's how it is. Sports should be about competing on a level playing field.

If trans women start to compete in any great numbers then that will be the end of plain old xx women's success in sports. How is that fair?

The thing is FTA69 judges female athletes on male physique while dismissing testosterone tests, that is wide open to interpretation whereby athletes like the tennis Williams sisters would be banned for having a male physique while athletes like Dutee would not despite having high testosterone levels, Dutee would win in this scenario.

Some trans women have indeed male physiques while some do not, most trans women would have testosterone levels less than Semenya and Dutee and yet still be banned by some posters!

Then we have your suggestion of using chromosomes, do you think a chromosome test of all female athletes is the way forward?

ceadaoin.

klaaaz wrote: »

The thing is FTA69 judges female athletes on male physique while dismissing testosterone tests, that is wide open to interpretation whereby athletes like the tennis Williams sisters would be banned for having a male physique while athletes like Dutee would not despite having high testosterone levels, Dutee would win in this scenario.

Some trans women have indeed male physiques while some do not, most trans women would have testosterone levels less than Semenya and Dutee and yet still be banned by some posters!

Then we have your suggestion of using chromosomes, do you think a chromosome test of all female athletes is the way forward?

those people with y chromosomes, intersex and trans women, went through a male puberty. The advantage conferred by that doesn't just go away when you lower current levels. The way things are going now, there may very well be trans women competing in the future who have never gone through puberty. Perhaps they would not have the advantages, but then they might not have developed enough physically to be able to compete.

Or just let everyone compete as a woman. Biological women will just have to try harder if they want to win.

klaaaz

astrofool wrote: »

Fallon's bones will have developed as a male, and thus be heavier and denser than other females, this allows her to have more power in her strikes, and be more resilient to damage (though doesn't really enhance her skill as she got easily beaten by a more skilful opponent)

Doesn't a transitioned person lose bone density as well as physical strength than in their previous state?
Thing is Semenya and athletes like her have the exact same attributes as some transitioned trans women but retain higher testosterone levels hence the suggestion from the officials that she might have to inject herself to reduce her naturally elevated testosterone levels.

klaaaz

ceadaoin. wrote: »

those people with y chromosomes, intersex and trans women, went through a male puberty. The advantage conferred by that doesn't just go away when you lower current levels. The way things are going now, there may very well be trans women competing in the future who have never gone through puberty. Perhaps they would not have the advantages, but then they might not have developed enough physically to be able to compete.

Or just let everyone compete as a woman. Biological women will just have to try harder if they want to win.

You seem to have an inkling about trans women in sports but yet ignore the likes of Semenya.
Do you think Semenya and athletes like her should be banned from competing in female sports?

Kfagan10

Honestly, tough **** on her opponents.

All the record holders in athletics had some advantage that led them to the elite level of their event.

Some were born in developed countries, with access to the best coaching programmes and facilities. Some were born with physical traits which align themselves to the demands of a particular event.

Just because one person is an outlier, and happens to be superior to their contemporary competitors, doesn't mean the authority should try to artificially level the field by handicapping that athlete.

Look at Usain Bolt or Florence Griffith Joyner. Athletes who are miles ahead of the nearest challenger, they're just better, accept it.

astrofool

klaaaz wrote: »

Doesn't a transitioned person lose bone density as well as physical strength than in their previous state?

They end up (on average) somewhere in the middle between the male and female in bone density and muscle mass. They also retain any height advantage they got from being a male during puberty. If you've transitioned, you definitely can't compete effectively against males anymore (unless you were at the top top end for characteristics as a male, and thus became more of an average male post transition), but neither is it fair to compete against a born female as even an average person post M2F transition will then be in the top percentiles of their sport physically.

astrofool

Kfagan10 wrote: »

Look at Usain Bolt or Florence Griffith Joyner. Athletes who are miles ahead of the nearest challenger, they're just better, accept it.

Usain Bolt is about 10% faster than Flo Jo, should she just accept that and not compete? Should we just get rid of female competition altogether?

klaaaz

Should taller athletes be exempt from the high jump as smaller athletes cannot compete?

Should athletes raised in a mountainous country with their advantage of high altitude running be banned as many other athletes raised in a low altitude environment haven't a hope of competing against them?

FTA69

klaaaz wrote: »

Fallon should, she is female without the male physique(your words) unlike Semenya.

Semenya who was born female has the male physique like some transitioned trans women and has higher testosterone levels than other female competitors, do you think Semenya with her male physique should be able to continue to compete in female sports?

Oh for God's sake. Fallon Fox is not female without a male physique. She is a male who identifies as female and still very much has male physical characteristics such as punching power, bone structure, punch resistance and reflexes etc. The idea that Fox or people like Hannah Mounsey with pronounced male characteristics don't have an advantage in physical or even combat sports is utterly ridiculous.

I haven't contradicted myself here once at all. I have said that 1) transwomen should not be competing in women's sports because they will have undue advantage and it's horribly unfair to female athletes and 2) the fact that they may have low test levels doesn't negate the advantages that they have.

Semenya is intersex, not trans. You're trying to conflate a very rare and understandable condition with a male who transitions and expects all the other female athletes to make way for them, even if it involves them getting punched and kneed into unconsciousness.

Lastly, you've suggested that I somehow have some visual criteria as to what constitutes a fair competitor. I don't. I believe that women should compete in women's sports and that transwomen should'nt be allowed kick the sh*t out of women in combat sports or rag doll them in rugby.

If you can look at that sort of sh*t and think it's grand and there's no cause for complaint then you clearly know nothing about sports or just don't give a sh*t about women's spaces in general.

ligerdub

This thread is deliberately and unnecessarily provocative in the title alone.

The story linked explained that the athlete herself declares herself (a concessionary gesture here) as a woman, which of course she would (given her livelihood relies on it). That isnt enough though, and that's the whole argument.

There's also a not so subtle suggestion here that Caster Semenya has masculine traits but is female, and therefore men who then later identify as women are then also somehow women, just like Caster, and they are essentially no different! It's total hogwash.

The reality is that Semenya is intersex, and is so from natural means. A female is not somebody who is intersex but lives as a woman. You don't need to be a genius to see this quite observable issue here. We can and should call her she because as an intersex person has some female features and chooses to live as a woman. It is the polite and reasonable thing to do. It's not the same as somebody who was clearly born a man but then feels like a woman and attempts to change gender or identifies as a woman.

We can't just ignore though that Semenya is pretty much 50:50 male and female, and that brings a hell of a lot of an advantage in the world of female athletics. This is especially true as she has lived through her physical development with that being the case.

Nothing against Semenya on this issue, there's no obvious attempt there to gain artificial advantage over competitors. This is something which she has had to live with all her life. There are going to be cases every so often where intersex athletes perform well in female athletics. It's perhaps a grey area where you're hoping it's rare enough to just let those cases go.

Having said that I can't stand over the idea that we're to just sit idly by and accept competitors into female events who are clearly not really women, and were physiologically male at birth. I'm sick of people trying to ruin women's sport for the sake of trying to appear well meaning and big hearted to transgender issues. It's an incredibly selfish point of view.

ceadaoin.

klaaaz wrote: »

Should taller athletes be exempt from the high jump as smaller athletes cannot compete?

Should athletes raised in a mountainous country with their advantage of high altitude running be banned as many other athletes raised in a low altitude environment haven't a hope of competing against them?

Except, separating sports by sex is not like any of those things?

BeerWolf

These transgendered people should have their own category, more so for MtF... it just makes a complete mockery for actual women in sports who worked really hard to achieve what they have.

Candamir

Klaaaz, in your mental gymnastics to champion the rights of trans athletes and prisoners, you really are doing no favours to the vast majority of trans women who just want to get on with it.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

I was reading about IOC sex-testing there. Apparently it’s a bit more complicated than “Are you 46XX or 46XY?”.

O_o

So to answer the OP’s question, I don’t know.

eagle eye

As long as everything that's happened is a natural occurrence and there is no cheating involved then I have no problem with it.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

As long as everything that's happened is a natural occurrence and there is no cheating involved then I have no problem with it.

Why the emphasis on nature, though? As Klaaz has pointed out, trans women actually deliberately lower their testosterone levels as part of the transitioning process.

It's literally the opposite of 'cheating', and although there may be some vestigial benefit (I don't know of any), nobody is seriously going to transition just to win a medal, especially knowing that such victories will always be tarnished in the eyes of some people.

Calhoun

BeerWolf wrote: »

These transgendered people should have their own category, more so for MtF... it just makes a complete mockery for actual women in sports who worked really hard to achieve what they have.

I'd say they eventually will do something like this, feel sorry for natural born women trying to compete and because of physical differences just can't keep up.

Alf Veedersane

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It's literally the opposite of 'cheating', and although there may be some vestigial benefit (I don't know of any), nobody is seriously going to transition just to win a medal, especially knowing that such victories will always be tarnished in the eyes of some people.

In anything that relates to strength, there absolutely is a benefit regardless of having to lower test levels. For a long time they will have a greater level of myonuclei in their muscles, which is how they can regain muscle and strength at a faster rate than an actual woman would gain it.

Alf Veedersane

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

In anything that relates to strength, there absolutely is a benefit regardless of having to lower test levels. For a long time they will have a greater level of myonuclei in their muscles, which is how they can regain muscle and strength at a faster rate than an actual woman would gain it.

Fair enough, I actually don't know much about this apart from the fact that trans women have lower testosterone.

I've tried in the past to find research into trans people and sports but there seems to be very little, or else it's of a very low quality (not peer reviewed, lack of verifiable quantitative data, etc)

Alf Veedersane

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Fair enough, I actually don't know much about this apart from the fact that trans women have lower testosterone.

I've tried in the past to find research into trans people and sports but there seems to be very little, or else it's of a very low quality (not peer reviewed, lack of verifiable quantitative data, etc.)

The benefit of having elevated testosterone and for a long time isn't offset by reducing test levels. The benefits are retained within the muscle fibres and even if the cross sectional area of the muscle reduces, it's the fact that there are elevated levels of myonuclei that make the difference.

It's not that far removed from the advantages that athletes who have taken anabolic steroids have over athletes who haven't even when they're no longer on gear - insofar as they have elevated levels of myonuclei for a long time after they come off and test levels fall back.

klaaaz

BeerWolf wrote: »

These transgendered people should have their own category, more so for MtF... it just makes a complete mockery for actual women in sports who worked really hard to achieve what they have.

Caster Semenya and Dutee Chand are not transgender.

Candamir wrote: »

Klaaaz, in your mental gymnastics to champion the rights of trans athletes and prisoners, you really are doing no favours to the vast majority of trans women who just want to get on with it.

Think you'll find it's the uneducated objectors to anything transgender that are trying their best to undermine transgender people.

What is your opinion on Semenya who has that male physique and elevated testosterone levels, should she as a woman be allowed to compete in female sports?

klaaaz

FTA69 wrote: »

Oh for God's sake. Fallon Fox is not female without a male physique.

You're wrong, Fallon Fox is female as recognised by the medical community and the law in the EU and in the US.

FTA69 wrote: »

Lastly, you've suggested that I somehow have some visual criteria as to what constitutes a fair competitor. I don't. I believe that women should compete in women's sports and that transwomen should'nt be allowed kick the sh*t out of women in combat sports or rag doll them in rugby.

If you can look at that sort of sh*t and think it's grand and there's no cause for complaint then you clearly know nothing about sports or just don't give a sh*t about women's spaces in general.

You know better than the MMA boxing commission who allowed Fallon to compete under very strict rules. Quite strange!

suicide_circus

klaaaz wrote: »

You know better than the MMA boxing commission who allowed Fallon to compete under very strict rules. Quite strange!

they wouldn't dare not allow it

Zorya

klaaaz wrote: »

She is not transgender, i'm wondering how the posters here who object to transgender people specifically in sports cope with the fact that Miss Semenya has very high testosterone levels which are more likely greater than a trans athlete and greater than non-trans female athletes.

klaaaz wrote: »

Trans women after medical transition usually have testosterone levels below 2 nmol/L like most female born athletes. Caster is among a rare section of female born athletes with highly elevated testosterone levels throughout their life hence their physical advantage.

klaaaz wrote: »

Semenya who was born female has the male physique like some transitioned trans women and has higher testosterone levels than other female competitors, do you think Semenya with her male physique should be able to continue to compete in female sports?

klaaaz wrote: »

Some trans women have indeed male physiques while some do not, most trans women would have testosterone levels less than Semenya and Dutee and yet still be banned by some posters!

klaaaz wrote: »

You seem to have an inkling about trans women in sports but yet ignore the likes of Semenya.
Do you think Semenya and athletes like her should be banned from competing in female sports?

klaaaz wrote: »

Caster Semenya and Dutee Chand are not transgender.

Think you'll find it's the uneducated objectors to anything transgender that are trying their best to undermine transgender people.

Why are you trying to use intersex people to try and construct a thesis on behalf of transgender people?

They are not the same. They are not related. One is an objective chromosomal deviation, measurable, empirical, physically observable in real time via scientific devices. The other is a subjective gender identification.

Intersex people are way fed up with being used as a tool for this purpose. It's old hat now, debunked news. Fake science. Irrelevant. Move on.

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

Usain Bolt is about 10% faster than Flo Jo, should she just accept that and not compete? Should we just get rid of female competition altogether?

Yes