BMW N47 timing chain stretch dealership test.

huggy15

I've a 2013 bmw 3 series with the n47 engine. My indie mechanic has advised to change the timing chain in a few thousand miles, even though there are no rattles coming from it at all. It's an expensive job and something id rather not do if I thought it didn't need done.

Anyway I've booked the car in with BMW because I heard they can do a test of some sort to determine if the chain is ok or is needing replacement. Does anyone know what is actually involved in the test?

w211

If chain are stretched too much, there is no possible adjust it anymore.
Also mileage

drunkmonkey

Wouldn't spend a penny on it unless you hear a rattle. Is the BMW test free?

Phileas Frog

My chain didn't rattle at all, and was in the main dealers on another matter 3 weeks before it went.

w211

Do not play with the luck. Old timing chains was so good, it works perfectly even 60 000km from rattling sound. The new ones does not last so much. Need to follow the recommended mileages

huggy15

drunkmonkey wrote:

Wouldn't spend a penny on it unless you hear a rattle. Is the BMW test free?

No it's 80 euro. It's 1200 to replace the chain so id like to try and avoid that kind of expense if at all possible.

colm_mcm

w211 wrote: »

If chain are stretched too much, there is no possible adjust it anymore.
Also mileage

Adjust what?

Phileas Frog

w211 wrote: »

Do not play with the luck. Old timing chains was so good, it works perfectly even 60 000km from rattling sound. The new ones does not last so much. Need to follow the recommended mileages

Go on then... What's the recommended mileage to change the chain on an N47?

Oh yes, of course, there isn't one.

huggy15

w211 wrote:

Do not play with the luck. Old timing chains was so good, it works perfectly even 60 000km from rattling sound. The new ones does not last so much. Need to follow the recommended mileages

There is no recommended mileage it's meant to last the life of the engine, but obviously many don't.

grogi

huggy15 wrote: »

No it's 80 euro. It's 1200 to replace the chain so id like to try and avoid that kind of expense if at all possible.

And then what?

You spent 80 euro, the dealer tells you they don't see anything wrong with it. But you will still be driving with a time bomb, they have no responsibility nwhen the chain actually snaps.

grogi

huggy15 wrote: »

There is no recommended mileage it's meant to last the life of the engine, but obviously many don't.

All of them do. Typically both the chain and the engine die at the same time...

drunkmonkey

He's is a 2013, they still can go but there's no guarantee it will either. What's the odds, one in ten thousand? Wouldn't waste €80

w211

colm_mcm wrote: »

Adjust what?

Automatic adjuster/tensioner goes to the limit and then it is game over.

w211

drunkmonkey wrote: »

He's is a 2013, they still can go but there's no guarantee it will either. What's the odds, one in ten thousand? Wouldn't waste €80

Do not spend 80eur for mambo-jambo if the entire new kit price starts from 130eur

rex-x

w211 wrote: »

Do not spend 80eur for mambo-jambo if the entire new kit price starts from 130eur

Plus removing the whole engine to change thanks to being right against the firewall....

huggy15

grogi wrote:

You spent 80 euro, the dealer tells you they don't see anything wrong with it. But you will still be driving with a time bomb, they have no responsibility nwhen the chain actually snaps.

I'd hope they'd be able to tell me more than they don't see anything wrong. I know too well they'd have no responsibility if it snaps I'm not expecting them to take responsibility.

w211

rex-x wrote: »

Plus removing the whole engine to change thanks to being right against the firewall....

This is the labor cost and I did not said anything about that.

mickdw

Was speaking to a mechanic the other day about how silly the bmw setup was with the chain at the bulkhead. I was surprised to hear him say that in the 3 series at least that it's quite straightforward to pull the engine out and so was not a bad job overall.

jmreire

huggy15 wrote: »

I've a 2013 bmw 3 series with the n47 engine. My indie mechanic has advised to change the timing chain in a few thousand miles, even though there are no rattles coming from it at all. It's an expensive job and something id rather not do if I thought it didn't need done.

Anyway I've booked the car in with BMW because I heard they can do a test of some sort to determine if the chain is ok or is needing replacement. Does anyone know what is actually involved in the test?

By 2013, the incidents of the N47 chain snapping and messing up the engine, had reduced, but was still happening too often ( and it is still happening, although again, less so than in the past. ) So if you really like the car, and are planning on keeping it, then get the chain done. It will work out cheaper than having to replace the entire engine if it snaps.Generally, you could hear a rattle on start up at low revs, and this was indicative that you had a chain problem, but there have been cases where they did not give any advance warning that they were about to go, and then "BINGO" they snapped. But if you have a bit of a gambling streak in you, then just drive on !!! Good luck with it, and let us know how you get on.

grogi

mickdw wrote: »

Was speaking to a mechanic the other day about how silly the bmw setup was with the chain at the bulkhead. I was surprised to hear him say that in the 3 series at least that it's quite straightforward to pull the engine out and so was not a bad job overall.

It's not silly, it is BMW philosophy.

Those cars are engineered with clear goals in mind - in this case it is mass distribution. Hundreds of those silly things, which usually don't cause any issues, make those cars what they are - driving machines.

huggy15

jmreire wrote:

By 2013, the incidents of the N47 chain snapping and messing up the engine, had reduced, but was still happening too often ( and it is still happening, although again, less so than in the past. ) So if you really like the car, and are planning on keeping it, then get the chain done. It will work out cheaper than having to replace the entire engine if it snaps.Generally, you could hear a rattle on start up at low revs, and this was indicative that you had a chain problem, but there have been cases where they did not give any advance warning that they were about to go, and then "BINGO" they snapped. But if you have a bit of a gambling streak in you, then just drive on !!! Good luck with it, and let us know how you get on.

Theres bound to be some cars out there that have high mileage and are on the original chain, if I thought it needed changed I'd change it but it might actually be in good shape that's why I wanted to get the dealership to do the test. I've been doing oil changes every 7k miles since I've had the car because from what I've read the long service intervals can be an influencing factor to why the chain might wear prematurely.

w211

huggy15 wrote: »

Theres bound to be some cars out there that have high mileage and are on the original chain, if I thought it needed changed I'd change it but it might actually be in good shape that's why I wanted to get the dealership to do the test. I've been doing oil changes every 7k miles since I've had the car because from what I've read the long service intervals can be an influencing factor to why the chain might wear prematurely.

30 years old mercedes timing chains last 1 000 000 kilometers easily. These days everything are "life time", what can means only 200 000km or what ever mileages.

testarossa40

grogi wrote: »

It's not silly, it is BMW philosophy.

Those cars are engineered with clear goals in mind - in this case it is mass distribution. Hundreds of those silly things, which usually don't cause any issues, make those cars what they are - driving machines.

What???

w211

testarossa40 wrote: »

What???

Translation: Car for the snowflakes :P

mickdw

My Audi lifetime timing chain was no better.
Oil changes on the button from new with the correct oil and still came close to engine destruction.
Got a new chain just in time. Why they don't specify an interval I don't know.

pa990

w211 wrote: »

Translation: Car for the snowflakes :P

Careful now...

Ppl get banned for saying snowflake

Can't be offending ppl



Imagine a place where people with different views come together to discuss things.

.... INSTANT B A N

greasepalm

Or inferior build of timing chains,did the vw tsi engines go at 40,000.I dont think timing chains were as good as 20+ years ago.

w211

pa990 wrote: »

Careful now...

Ppl get banned for saying snowflake

Can't be offending ppl



Imagine a place where people with different views come together to discuss things.

.... INSTANT B A N

Sorry, no offense only translation
The discussing are the progress. We extend our minds and the knowledge.

gctest50

grogi wrote: »

It's not silly, it is BMW philosophy.

Those cars are engineered with clear goals in mind - in this case it is mass distribution.............

The only mass distribution is the redistribution of mass from your wallet to theirs

9935452

huggy15 wrote: »

I've a 2013 bmw 3 series with the n47 engine. My indie mechanic has advised to change the timing chain in a few thousand miles, even though there are no rattles coming from it at all. It's an expensive job and something id rather not do if I thought it didn't need done.

Anyway I've booked the car in with BMW because I heard they can do a test of some sort to determine if the chain is ok or is needing replacement. Does anyone know what is actually involved in the test?

Is he looking to change it as a precautionary measure?
How long have you the car, What mileage is up on it?

We were looking at a car with the n47.
No rattle on startup but when it got warm there was a slight tick from the engine like a valve from the air con.

got the car at 1600-1850rpm and you could hear the whine of the chain flying around .

Price of the car dropped by 1500 euros


I was told at the time the full kit from BMW cost round the 600 euro mark and not to use anything else

huggy15

9935452 wrote:

Is he looking to change it as a precautionary measure? How long have you the car, What mileage is up on it?

Yeah think it's more of a precautionary measure, but he's said himself he can hear no rattle from the chain although that was when the engine was hot. I do be listening out for it when doing a cold start but I can hear nothing unusual. I'd just hate to fork out the 1200 if the chain was in good shape and actually didn't need changing.

kerten

A neighbour asked dealer to check the chain after I warned him about the issue on f10 20ds.

All good from dealer after service.

Fast forward 1 week and he had a breakdown with stretched chain.

jmreire

grogi wrote: »

All of them do. Typically both the chain and the engine die at the same time...

:D:D:D:D:D:D:
Very true !!!! So the manufacturer's claims are 100% true !!!!:D:D:D:D:D

grogi

gctest50 wrote: »

The only mass distribution is the redistribution of mass from your wallet to theirs

If that f...k up was deliberate, please explain how does this benefit the BMW?

Not only they have spent fortune on warranty claims, they have also lost a good deal of trust.

jmreire

The timing chains and gears were placed at the back, in an out of the way area, because they were designed never to need replacement... ever for the life of the engine. And one poster here, ( who has a good sense of humour ) has said that, it's very true, the chain DOES indeed last for the life of the engine, but that life can be very short, because when the chain snap's in most cases, it destroy'a the engine too. But it's truthfull to say that the chain has lasted the life of the engine, as per BMW statement. While badly serviced engines have more of a chance statistically of snapping, those with full BMW service are snapping too, regardless of mileage...some as low as 26'000 Miles. The lack of any give away sound that the chain may be about to fail, is no guarantee that it wont fail. It applies to all BMW's who use the 2 ltr engine block, basically because it's a bad design, and uses faulty component's. The gear which drives it is welded on to the crankshaft ( most engines have this gear bolted onto the crankshaft ) Then there was the issue of the teeth on this gear being machined slightly "off", which caused premature wear on the chain, which tended to get loose / slack due to uneven wear. The tensioners, which are designed to take up any slack on the timing chain, were not up to the job, which allowed the chain and gear to wear even more, until it eventually snapped or jumped. End of story for the engine. Lucky were the ones who caught it at the rattle stage. There is a very good article on the Irish Times today about it. Google "BMW N47 Timing Chains " and you will see it yourself.

Blazer

huggy15 wrote: »

No it's 80 euro. It's 1200 to replace the chain so id like to try and avoid that kind of expense if at all possible.

If its €1200 to replace the chain all in including labour snap their hand off.
Yes its a lot of money but you'll have peace of mind.
If that chain goes you'll either be writing off your car or handing over around 5-6k,

jmreire

About 6 mths ago, was shopping with the wife and she met a friend of hers, who happened to be driving a 2011 520 BMW. She was saying how fantastic the car was, loved it etc . Was not very happy when I advised her to (A) trade it in for something that did not have the N47 engine in it, or if she could not bear to part with it, then she should get the chain replaced. She choose not to do either, and about 2 mths later, my Wife met her again, but this time driving a Merc. So my Wife asked her what had happened to her beloved beemer, and she replied that about two weeks previous, the engine had packed up due to timing chain snapping... I would not buy a BMW unless it had a ( BMW) certified receipt of timing chain replacement.

9935452

jmreire wrote: »

About 6 mths ago, was shopping with the wife and she met a friend of hers, who happened to be driving a 2011 520 BMW. She was saying how fantastic the car was, loved it etc . Was not very happy when I advised her to (A) trade it in for something that did not have the N47 engine in it, or if she could not bear to part with it, then she should get the chain replaced. She choose not to do either, and about 2 mths later, my Wife met her again, but this time driving a Merc. So my Wife asked her what had happened to her beloved beemer, and she replied that about two weeks previous, the engine had packed up due to timing chain snapping... I would not buy a BMW unless it had a ( BMW) certified receipt of timing chain replacement.

A lot of people who have been stung with bmws have gone to mercs and havent looked back

w211

If you really want to keep N47 engine, do not ignore the preventive maintenance. It is insane to drive 30 000 or even more by oil. Oil and filter is not expensive and you can to do it yourself. Do not start the BS like you can not to do or you have a 0 experience. DIY is easier to do by vacuum pump. It cost around 50eur and you can suck the all oil out by oil dipstick guide tube. Yes N47 have it, may be only dipstick itself are unpopulated. So first time oil changing cost for you almost like a regular price and later you can save a money.

I seriously do not understand why people like to drive a max kilometers by single oil and then blame the engine does not last. My car (unfortunately not N47 engine) have too 20 000km recommended interval but I cut it half. 10 000km is enough. 10 000km oil are already dark and I do not like to see how dark it can be on 20 000km. By good lubrication your timing chain last too much longer time.

1 more thing. Please check your oil plug have a neodymium magnet. If not then order it. It can collect all the small oil particles. So it means sometimes you need to remove the plug too to remove the metal particles. It is easy to remove if no oil on sump, no spill.

grogi

w211 wrote: »

10 000km is enough. 10 000km oil are already dark and I do not like to see how dark it can be on 20 000km. .

My oil is dark after 10km....

w211

grogi wrote: »

My oil is dark after 10km....

Soon comes the next user and say "I filled engine by dark oil, 0km"

Wibbs

I change my oil and filter at the 4000kms mark. Now in fairness I'm certifiable, so there's that. However and personally speaking here and colour me even madder, no way would I run oil to 10k in any engine no matter what the manufacturers told me. Maybe if I was sitting on motorways at a constant speed day in day out, but otherwise no. Like W211 said you can buy one of those suction pump thingies and do it very easily yourself. Oil filter replacement is easier these days on most cars too(a doddle on Beemers, very well placed. On my dinosaur you need the hands and arms of a gynaecologist to get to it). It's a twenty minute job that doesn't require a mechanic. Hell I can do it.

Though I dunno if this would help with the N47 engine. The timing gear seems to be a really bloody awful design. To the degree where you think is this deliberate.

jmreire

grogi wrote: »

My oil is dark after 10km....

Thats perfectly normal for diesel engines...but not the same for petrol engine's....black coloured oil in a petrol engine mean's a change is way over due. I had a new Skoda Octavia, back in 2012. Big selling point was 30'000 Kms between oil changes.I am not a believer in that, so I took it in for it's first change at 15'000 Klms, and was asked by the service manager if I had got the letter from Skoda about the reduced service Klms? I told him not yet, but I wanted it changed anyway at 15'000. Then he told me that it had indeed been reduced to 15'000 Klms..... seems that the 30'000 change interval was not working out as planned. For me anyway, I use long live engine oil, but short term changes.

jmreire

What kind of car is it? And what kind of mileage has it done?

w211

Wibbs, at least it gives a chance for timing chain not to stretch so fast. By old oil the wear and tear are the highest

greasepalm

Too many issues with oil get a regular oil and filter change once a year if low mileage and 10000 if motorway driving.If people want to change oil earlier then good and engines will last longer.My 1989 mitsubishi has 1000 or less in a year but driven hard on motorways and getting oil and filter done.Some cars are built to last and others not,do people bother checking how good cars are before buying them i think not.

w211

greasepalm, the problem are the car manufacturer false promises and people trust it. It is clever marketing trick and the new engines (even N47 and the timing chain) does not last like a old cars did. They like to sell the new car for you after the end of warranty period. If dealer have a side by side 2 similar cars and 1 service interval are 10 000 and other 30 000 or even life time. Now, what car you could take? Of course service free or by very long interval. Yes that all are still related by stretched timing chain, no off topic

jmreire

I have seen many very high mileage cars, ( 900'000+ Klms on the original engine ), but they all had one thing in common... frequent oil and filter change's. I have never seen a high mileage poorly serviced one though. That's what would worry me about buying an ex-fleet car...lots of car manufacturers use the long service intervals as a selling point, especially where fleet owners are concerned. So, to my way of thinking, while ALL services are important, the first ones even more so. But buying an ex-fleet car with say 100'000 Klms on the clock, ( but driving perfectly,) at 30'000 klms service interval's, will only have had 3 oil and filter changes, whereas a privately owned car might have had a service every 10'000 Klms,,, meaning 10 service's. The ex-fleet car will statistically have more problems earlier in it's life....as many buyers have found out to their cost.....when the "Bargain" ex-fleet turned into a nightmare....

huggy15

w211 wrote:

If you really want to keep N47 engine, do not ignore the preventive maintenance. It is insane to drive 30 000 or even more by oil. Oil and filter is not expensive and you can to do it yourself. Do not start the BS like you can not to do or you have a 0 experience. DIY is easier to do by vacuum pump. It cost around 50eur and you can suck the all oil out by oil dipstick guide tube. Yes N47 have it, may be only dipstick itself are unpopulated. So first time oil changing cost for you almost like a regular price and later you can save a money.

I already do change the oil myself I invested in a jack, jack stands and tool kit ages ago. I've been changing the oil every 6000 to 7000 miles max since I've got the car. I do not agree with bmw 18000 mile interval oil changes and my indie mechanic has said he has seen cars come into him before with broken timing chains and when he strips down the engine he has seen sludgey oil in places which he thinks is down to the oil not being changed often enough. When I purchased it it had 87000 miles on the clock it now has 117000 and in that time I've got to say its been extremely reliable nothing has broken and it still feels nice and tight on the road as if it was a car half it's mileage.

Changing the oil yourself is pretty cheap, I can get a genuine filter and 5 litres off good quality ll04 oil for 50 or 60 euro so I'm hoping it will make a difference in the long run.

huggy15

I ended up getting the dealership to do the test for stretch in the timing chain on my 3 series. Best thing I ever done. The car failed the test and required a new timing chain. But the lady in the service who was dealing with me said that it shouldn't have not on a 2013 and said they were going to try and get the fitting of a new chain covered under goodwill from BMW.

Well I just collected the car yesterday, new chain fitted top and bottom. It didn't cost me a single cent. So anyone with a car that has the n47 engine maybe think about getting the test done and perhaps you could be as lucky as myself and they will cover the cost of a new chain.

Titzon Toast

grogi wrote: »

It's not silly, it is BMW philosophy.

Those cars are engineered with clear goals in mind - in this case it is mass distribution. Hundreds of those silly things, which usually don't cause any issues, make those cars what they are - driving machines.

Fanboy of the year here. Or a BMW employee, or both?