To diesel or not to diesel?

Ultimanemo

I am in the market fo a SUV 4WD around 45K, my biggest concern is: What engine? I like diesel but reasonable range EV isn't bad either, I can install a charging point in my house. I do 40 Km a day mixed; 2/3 rural, 1/3 urban. if waiting for one year will help I can wait.
Any advice is appreciated.

punisher5112

Ultimanemo wrote: »

I am in the market fo a SUV 4WD around 45K, my biggest concern is: What engine? I like diesel but reasonable range EV isn't bad either, I can install a charging point in my house. I do 40 Km a day mixed; 2/3 rural, 1/3 urban. if waiting for one year will help I can wait.
Any advice is appreciated.

Hyundai Kona so...

If you didn't want to spend as much then look at the ioniq.

Ultimanemo

punisher5112 wrote: »

Hyundai Kona so...

If you didn't want to spend as much then look at the ioniq.

Thanks I will book a test drive

punisher5112

Ultimanemo wrote: »

Thanks I will book a test drive

Ioniq are getting great reviews.

Kona not out long at all but have seen a few about.

Meant to be quite good.

bazz26

I don't think the Kona EV is 4wd. The Kona is also quite compact, are you happy with the size?

A Mitsubishi Outlander Plug in hybrid or even Toyota Rav4 hybrid might be more suitable if you need a bit of space.

Wildly Boaring

punisher5112 wrote: »

Hyundai Kona so...

If you didn't want to spend as much then look at the ioniq.

Any of these 4wd?

Ultimanemo

bazz26 wrote: »

I don't think the Kona EV is 4wd. The Kona is also quite compact, are you happy with the size?

A Mitsubishi Outlander Plug in hybrid or even Toyota Rav4 hybrid might be more suitable if you need a bit of space.

Yes I prefer 4WD, I will have a look at both

punisher5112

Any reason why it must be 4x4?

Ultimanemo

punisher5112 wrote: »

Any reason why it must be 4x4?

There is a slope between my house and the main road, when there is heavy snow, 2WD cars will struggle to make it, I know it doesn't snow so often but it happened few times before.

McCrack

Ultimanemo wrote: »

There is a slope between my house and the main road, when there is heavy snow, 2WD cars will struggle to make it, I know it doesn't snow so often but it happened few times before.

In the once in every 3-6 years that we get by Irish standards heavy snow that lasts perhaps 3 to 5 days can you park on or near the main road and walk up the slope to your home?

punisher5112

Snow socks or chains if it is really bad and 2 wd shouldn't have an issue.

irish_man

Was talking to a mechanic and he said to stay away from fully EV cars. Just like a phone battery they lose their capacity over time and are a write off after 7/8 years when the cost of battery replacement is higher than the value of the car. Go hybrid perhaps.

Bought a diesel car last year for 11k after the prices all went down. Was looking at a hybrid and it was 16k for similar spec. Hard to justify the price difference.

Ultimanemo

irish_man wrote: »

Was talking to a mechanic and he said to stay away from fully EV cars. Just like a phone battery they lose their capacity over time and are a write off after 7/8 years when the cost of battery replacement is higher than the value of the car. Go hybrid perhaps.

Bought a diesel car last year for 11k after the prices all went down. Was looking at a hybrid and it was 16k for similar spec. Hard to justify the price difference.

Good point thanks

Ultimanemo

McCrack wrote: »

In the once in every 3-6 years that we get by Irish standards heavy snow that lasts perhaps 3 to 5 days can you park on or near the main road and walk up the slope to your home?

My kids love SUVs, I will buy a SUV anyway

scooby77

Ultimanemo wrote: »

My kids love SUVs, I will buy a SUV anyway

Since you said you can wait I'd hold off for look at new Rav4 Hybrid AWD. Should be in budget. Getting great reviews. Saw a fwd in the flesh looked nice.Told be available for 192, maybe August.
Honda CRV Hybrid AWD out or out shortly if near a Honda dealer for a look. No Honda near me so haven't seen that one myself. Again good reviews. Both should be bulletproof. Rav4 more power, on paper anyway.

bazz26

Going by what you say you need or want then an Outlander PHEV sound like the ideal candidate. It's a proper sized SUV and most if not all versions are 4wd. The downside is that the interior feels like it was designed about 10 years ago but that might not bother you too much.

scooby77

bazz26 wrote: »

Going by what you say you need or want then an Outlander PHEV sound like the ideal candidate. It's a proper sized SUV and most if not all versions are 4wd. The downside is that the interior feels like it was designed about 10 years ago but that might not bother you too much.

Oh yeah forgot about that. Would be on my list too.

punisher5112

punisher5112 wrote: »

Snow socks or chains if it is really bad and 2 wd shouldn't have an issue.

4wd is always better the 2wd I never get why people try to put off those who want 4wd.

punisher5112

Ryland Thankful Squeegee wrote: »

4wd is always better the 2wd I never get why people try to put off those who want 4wd.

Where did I try.... Was just stating it's possible.

Otherwise other options is a Tesla

colm_mcm

Ryland Thankful Squeegee wrote: »

4wd is always better the 2wd I never get why people try to put off those who want 4wd.

Because wanting 4wd (and not necessarily needing it) can really limit your options. Of course it’s better to have it than not, but so is having a V8

At 15k kms a year I wouldn't touch a diesel.
And I bought a sorento awd (diesel) 6 ish months ago so um not anti diesel or anti SUV or anti awd

A two wheel drive on cross climate tyres would do you fine.

Water John

Beware, the mechanic sees EV as largely doing himself out of a job. I think Ioniq and Kona battery is guaranteed for 8 years. That means if it drops cells they will be replaced.

Lantus

irish_man wrote: »

Was talking to a mechanic and he said to stay away from fully EV cars. Just like a phone battery they lose their capacity over time and are a write off after 7/8 years when the cost of battery replacement is higher than the value of the car. Go hybrid perhaps.

Bought a diesel car last year for 11k after the prices all went down. Was looking at a hybrid and it was 16k for similar spec. Hard to justify the price difference.

Bateries can be replaced making EV as good as new. An EV would have a lifespan way beyond an ice car mechanically speaking.

Don't worry though. The insurance cartel has already set an arbitrary 10 to 15 year lifespan until the free people are 'forced' to buy new if its required or not.

rn

Will one of those passenger type 4wd work very well on a snowy incline? Remember seeing a top gear demo of the off road capabilities of a BMW x5 v a proper 4x4...

I've no doubt their smart 4wd technology can be better on many trips on roads and especially on wet roads. But under extreme conditions like snow... You could be very disappointed.

As well as limiting choice of SUV, 4wd are harder on tyres and generally harder on fuel, while being more expensive. You could get more car spec elsewhere for same budget.

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Because wanting 4wd (and not necessarily needing it) can really limit your options. Of course it’s better to have it than not, but so is having a V8

Well it’s not really limiting the options that much as pretty mych any of the suv cross overs can be got in 4wd/awd, even plenty of estates can be got in awd.

If nothing else it gives lots of people piece of mind, yeah leaving aside the fact it’s going to give better grip even in wet even icy weather of which is common enough benefits a lot from 4wd. Yes an actual day of snow is rare but the day it come you might be damn glad to have the 4wd.

It’s like people thinking it’s a waste of time having a change over switch and a generator as sure the power only goes maybe once a year for a few hours but yeah when you have baby that needs a bottle or a freezer full meat etc you are damn glad to have it just for them few hours.

rn wrote: »

Will one of those passenger type 4wd work very well on a snowy incline? Remember seeing a top gear demo of the off road capabilities of a BMW x5 v a proper 4x4...

I've no doubt their smart 4wd technology can be better on many trips on roads and especially on wet roads. But under extreme conditions like snow... You could be very disappointed.

As well as limiting choice of SUV, 4wd are harder on tyres and generally harder on fuel, while being more expensive. You could get more car spec elsewhere for same budget.

In combination with the proper tyres any 4wd will outperform a 2wd in snow. I was only recently watching a video of a superb estate 4wd on snow and it’s perfromace was very impressive.

rn

rn wrote: »

Will one of those passenger type 4wd work very well on a snowy incline? Remember seeing a top gear demo of the off road capabilities of a BMW x5 v a proper 4x4...

......

For a snowy incline tyres are the main factor.

I don't think x5s have diff lock function so off-road they are limited compared to 4x4s or even other AWD yokes that can lock the diffs (ish)

Phileas Frog

McCrack wrote: »

In the once in every 3-6 years that we get by Irish standards heavy snow that lasts perhaps 3 to 5 days can you park on or near the main road and walk up the slope to your home?

What happens if it snows when he's at home?

tuxy

Does anyone else find it weird that they are considering diesel which is most suitable for long range and EV that's better at short range.
Should it not be petrol vs EV with such a short distance covered daily.

Tea drinker

Lantus wrote: »

Bateries can be replaced making EV as good as new. An EV would have a lifespan way beyond an ice car mechanically speaking.

Don't worry though. The insurance cartel has already set an arbitrary 10 to 15 year lifespan until the free people are 'forced' to buy new if its required or not.

I know for prius I've seen a video of reconditioned batteries thrown in 9 ish year old car, think they were about 1k Dollars
With battery tech advancing it might be a worthwhile investment.
Though I personally have no love for prius

Shefwedfan

irish_man wrote: »

Was talking to a mechanic and he said to stay away from fully EV cars. Just like a phone battery they lose their capacity over time and are a write off after 7/8 years when the cost of battery replacement is higher than the value of the car. Go hybrid perhaps.

Bought a diesel car last year for 11k after the prices all went down. Was looking at a hybrid and it was 16k for similar spec. Hard to justify the price difference.

Hate to tell you but your mechanic hasn't really a clue what he/she is talking about.

Tesla are up to 675k km's now in one car.

VW eGolf has done 80k km's and battery was same condition as when the car left plant....loads of other information around.....

Unfortuneate for your mechanic friend, he/she will be making very little out of electric cars....probably why they are recommending people not to buy

Shefwedfan

In regards to OP question. You are probably better holding on for 12 months or so and options would be better.

Kona is released but it is small, you mentioned kids and you will struggle with seat space and boot space.
eNiro will be out soon, same a the Kona only it is bigger. It will not be an AWD version on first release and they are very rare as most countries are selling out already
VW Crozz will be out in Q2/Q3 next year, It will have a AWD version but I would guess expensive. Based on your needs a 2WD wil do

Toyota Rav4 new version is out, a lot better than older version. They have AWD version but it does really affect your MPG so I would go 2WD
Outlander is out, I wouldnt buy new in Ireland as hugely over-priced. You will get a really good one in high 20's

In regards to snow, I would stick with 2WD on all cars and the money you save on buying and fuel just buy a large salt storage unit to put on drive. Most of the AWD on these Crossover are absolutely useless anyway, just a gimmick to charge you more. That's why they stopped calling it 4x4 and call it AWD

Shefwedfan

tuxy wrote: »

Does anyone else find it weird that they are considering diesel which is most suitable for long range and EV that's better at short range.
Should it not be petrol vs EV with such a short distance covered daily.

Why is BEV short range? The Kona will travel from Belfast to Cork without requiring a charge.....is that short range?

tuxy

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Why is BEV short range? The Kona will travel from Belfast to Cork without requiring a charge.....is that short range?

Compared to the the 1200 km you can get from a full tank of diesel it is.
And I think we all know about the issues that can be caused by using diesel for short distances along with higher maintenance cost so you really need to be driving a lot to justify it.
Petrol and EV are much more suited to the OPs driving habits so I'm surprised they are considering a diesel.

Shefwedfan

tuxy wrote: »

Compared to the the 1200 km you can get from a full tank of diesel it is.

Do you have a extra diesel tank in your SUV? you might get 1200km out of a fill in a car but never in a SUV


A full tank in SUV will cost? I fill my diesel and it cost between 80-90 at the moment depending on price at pump....a full tank will get me 800km :mad: maybe 900km at a real push



The Kona will cost you about 2 euro per charge, so do 1200 for about 10 quid......


eNiro etc will all be the same

stimpson

bazz26 wrote: »

Going by what you say you need or want then an Outlander PHEV sound like the ideal candidate. It's a proper sized SUV and most if not all versions are 4wd. The downside is that the interior feels like it was designed about 10 years ago but that might not bother you too much.

Been driving one since November. Ridiculously cheap to run for sub 30 miles a day (cost wise it’s like 120 mpg on electric). Running on petrol it’s more like 38mpg. I did 130 miles today @ 41 mpg. Very comfortable in GX5h spec. GX4h is very well specced too. You’re right about the interior. It’s a bit of a disaster, but the electric drive is super smooth and it’s enormous. No complaints about legroom from the kids.

tuxy

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Do you have a extra diesel tank in your SUV? you might get 1200km out of a fill in a car but never in a SUV


A full tank in SUV will cost? I fill my diesel and it cost between 80-90 at the moment depending on price at pump....a full tank will get me 800km :mad: maybe 900km at a real push



The Kona will cost you about 2 euro per charge, so do 1200 for about 10 quid......


eNiro etc will all be the same

So Kona with large batter or diesel for someone who does 40km a day

Smaller battery or petrol not worth thinking about?

I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just surprised that it's the best option for someone who covers such short distance yearly. I'll admit I've not calculated total costs for all scenarios.

punisher5112

Diesel isn't an option., Well it definitely shouldn't be.

no.8

Ultimanemo wrote:

There is a slope between my house and the main road, when there is heavy snow, 2WD cars will struggle to make it, I know it doesn't snow so often but it happened few times before.

Tbh I don't think theres enough of an argument there to shoehorn yourself into going with a 4WD only.
Add to that, 4WD or not, it won't matter much at all if you have the wrong (summer) tyres on the vehicle in that situation.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

....Most of the AWD on these Crossover are absolutely useless anyway, just a gimmick to charge you more. That's why they stopped calling it 4x4 and call it AWD

4x4 is drive to all wheels all the time.
AWD is capability to send drive to all wheels.
AWD generally don't have low range & diff locks etc and switch between two wheel drive and AWD either automatically or on demand.

They're named differently as they are different systems generally.

Skoda muddy the water somewhat calling some of their stuff 4x4 when it's actually AWD.

Some Subaru AWD have a low range but not a low range like in a full fat 4x4.

AWD offers significant handling improvements on road over two wheel drive ..... off-road AWD isn't a gimmick either as you can have 4 driven wheels. As many AWD crossovers don't have low range, diff locks and the ground clearance of 4x4s they aren't as capable as 4x4s off-road.... as you'd expect.

A two wheel drive with an open differential can quickly become effectively a zero wheel drive in snow / ice if one of the driven wheels slips.

AMKC

You say you have 45k to spend. How about a DS7 Crossback. Only problem is there is only one dealer in the country I think and its in Dublin. But it is a bit left field and different. Not sure if any of them are 4 wheel drive do.

There was a post started about it recently. Here it is.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109358284

Casati

I don’t see the attraction with the Outlander, the dash isn’t the only thing old looking, the car is a v old design and was never a class leading model. The space inside is tight compared to similarly priced suv’s - ie it’s Sorento priced but Tucson sized. It runs on EV if you drive it v slowly with the uneconomical engine kicking in anytime you need a small bit of acceleration. I’ve heard of avg fuel economy of 7 litre per 100km combined and worse with motorway driving

For the OP I would recommend the Ateca 2.0 TSI 4WD at less than 40k Great performance and driving dynamics. If the budget was only 35k the new Subaru XV looks like a great package but is a bit smaller. The CRV is available in AWD as 1.5 petrol for late 30’s, has plenty of poke and well equipped and available as a 7 seater too if you don’t go for the hybrid. The Rav is looking v expensive

Shefwedfan

Casati wrote: »

I don’t see the attraction with the Outlander, the dash isn’t the only thing old looking, the car is a v old design and was never a class leading model. The space inside is tight compared to similarly priced suv’s - ie it’s Sorento priced but Tucson sized. It runs on EV if you drive it v slowly with the uneconomical engine kicking in anytime you need a small bit of acceleration. I’ve heard of avg fuel economy of 7 litre per 100km combined and worse with motorway driving

For the OP I would recommend the Ateca 2.0 TSI 4WD at less than 40k Great performance and driving dynamics. If the budget was only 35k the new Subaru XV looks like a great package but is a bit smaller. The CRV is available in AWD as 1.5 petrol for late 30’s, has plenty of poke and well equipped and available as a 7 seater too if you don’t go for the hybrid. The Rav is looking v expensive

In regards to the Outlander you are thinking about a standard hybrid. The Outlander has a 11kWh battery so will run on full EV for about 30km. It will go fast to 100km on battery than in petrol


You are thinking of the Toyota hybrid. I had a RAv4 on trail and you would crawl along below 40km on battery ut anything else and it would kick in petrol engine....

stimpson

Outlander will run on EV up to 75mph. Any more (or if you kick down to overtake) then the engine is clutched into the drivetrain to give you extra power. For normal driving it’s done on EV until the battery is depeleted then the engine runs as needed to top up the battery. Mileage can vary considerably depending on usage. I get by during the week on EV, and my monthly electric costs are about €15. On long trips I’ll get about 40mpg, unless I can charge at the far end and I get about 55-60 mpg on a 100 mile round trip to the in-laws with a charge at the other end.

If you are doing big miles it’s not a contender, but OP said he was doing 40km a day and that is squarely in range for the Outlander.

Water John

Yes, I generally am not a big fan of hybrids, def not the ones you cannot plug in but as Schef and Stimpson say this suits your needs and indeed many others.

Just wish to see a full range of full EV vehicles soon. It's the way things need to go. Then I would be pushing towards electricity being used in most appliances, cars, lawnmowers, A2W heating. Electrical generation can then be largely renewable, wind, solar, AD to name 3 and vehicles will provide much of the storage to even out the supply demand curve.

scooby77

On this topic was reading about new Subaru XV (aka Crosstrek in USA) PHEV. Initially for States and Japan seems likely to make it here, or UK anyway.
Its AwD phev using Toyota Hybrid Tech with 8.8kwh battery.
Given Subarus record for (non-diesel!) reliability and driveability, and Toyota hybrid experience and reliability could be an interesting machine if as has been suggested the OP waits a while.
Googling Crosstrek hybrid gives plenty info.
As has been said before there'll be a lot more choice by this time next year!

Shefwedfan

stimpson wrote: »

Outlander will run on EV up to 75mph. Any more (or if you kick down to overtake) then the engine is clutched into the drivetrain to give you extra power. For normal driving it’s done on EV until the battery is depeleted then the engine runs as needed to top up the battery. Mileage can vary considerably depending on usage. I get by during the week on EV, and my monthly electric costs are about €15. On long trips I’ll get about 40mpg, unless I can charge at the far end and I get about 55-60 mpg on a 100 mile round trip to the in-laws with a charge at the other end.

If you are doing big miles it’s not a contender, but OP said he was doing 40km a day and that is squarely in range for the Outlander.

Not trying to derail the conversation but my mate is looking at one of these


After the battery is empty, it will recharge via braking etc, will it work like a Toyota hybrid and start kicking the battery in/off if in traffic? or will it not kick into batteyr mode till you charge again?


Another way to ask, if you don't charge the battery will it be more econimical if compared to a standard petrol or worse?

stimpson

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not trying to derail the conversation but my mate is looking at one of these


After the battery is empty, it will recharge via braking etc, will it work like a Toyota hybrid and start kicking the battery in/off if in traffic? or will it not kick into batteyr mode till you charge again?


Another way to ask, if you don't charge the battery will it be more econimical if compared to a standard petrol or worse?

The short answer is that you can leave it in normal or eco mode and let it do it’s thing and not worry about it.

The long answer is a bit complicated. It has 2 80hp electric motors, one in each axle, and a 2.0 petrol engine putting out 160hp, for a total power output of 202hp. Yes I know that doesn’t add up.

On a full battery and without the aircon running it will drive in EV mode, splitting power between the axles as it sees fit. Using the PHEV Watchdog app it seems to like to run as RWD most of the time. It will keep running on battery until it is down to 20% capacity and won’t go below that (keeping Li-ion batteries between 20 and 80% capacity greatly increases battery life).

When you’re down to 20% it will intermittently run the petrol engine to charge the battery enough to keep it above 20% and still run on EV (engine running but drive only coming from the EV motors).

When you kick down, or go over 75mph, the engine will clutch into the drivetrain and drive the wheels in conjunction with the EV motors (giving you the 202hp).

You have some control over this. You can manually put the car in Charge mode where the engine will run and send excess power to the battery. You can also use Save mode which will stop depleting the battery so you can keep iyour charge for running on EV in town. From my experience, and what I’ve read online, it really doesn’t make much difference what you do, but using EV around town is a little more economical.

Normally it will regen like a Toyota hybrid (better I would say as it has a larger battery and more powerful EV motor) but you can manually set the regen level. I set mine to P0 (no regen) as it will coast a long way like this and using momentum to coast is far more efficient than regen. Regen works well on long hills.

And because it has a motor in each axle you have a lockable diff in software. While it’s not a true 4x4 it’s apparently quite competent in snow and mud as long as you put better tyres on it. While it has no low range gearbox, EV motors have a lot of torque at low RPMs.

I would recommend going for GX4h spec as a minimum mainly for the electric heater to preheat the cabin off the mains.

Casati

stimpson wrote: »

Outlander will run on EV up to 75mph. Any more (or if you kick down to overtake) then the engine is clutched into the drivetrain to give you extra power. For normal driving it’s done on EV until the battery is depeleted then the engine runs as needed to top up the battery. Mileage can vary considerably depending on usage. I get by during the week on EV, and my monthly electric costs are about €15. On long trips I’ll get about 40mpg, unless I can charge at the far end and I get about 55-60 mpg on a 100 mile round trip to the in-laws with a charge at the other end.

If you are doing big miles it’s not a contender, but OP said he was doing 40km a day and that is squarely in range for the Outlander.

How many seconds / minutes does it take you to get to 75mph on ev alone? The one I was in had the engine kick in with any reasonable acceleration, eg when changing lanes, pulling out at junction, passing out, accelerating up hills etc etc. Possibly if you really nurse it you can drive on 30km in ev only but that’s with hypermiling driving techniques employed. If the OP drives in rush hour Dublin traffic that might work, but cross country driving will see the engine kick in a lot. Once the battery is dead on a long trip then you have to horse the weight around. Again 40mpg might be possible but not on a motorway driving at 120kmph into a headwind unless you start with a full charge and go only 50km. Driving from Dublin to Cork it won’t be 40mpg + unless your stuck on the bumper of a 40ft artic! My main point is that aside from the EV drivetrain the Outlander is a very old design and one that was never class leading to begin with so I fail to see the attraction. Sales figures would back this up too

stimpson

Here’s 2 trips worth of data. 100 miles plus on the motorway at 40 mpg, and 35 miles with a quick splash and dash during the day, at ~100 mpg

Shefwedfan

Casati wrote: »

How many seconds / minutes does it take you to get to 75mph on ev alone? The one I was in had the engine kick in with any reasonable acceleration, eg when changing lanes, pulling out at junction, passing out, accelerating up hills etc etc. Possibly if you really nurse it you can drive on 30km in ev only but that’s with hypermiling driving techniques employed. If the OP drives in rush hour Dublin traffic that might work, but cross country driving will see the engine kick in a lot. Once the battery is dead on a long trip then you have to horse the weight around. Again 40mpg might be possible but not on a motorway driving at 120kmph into a headwind unless you start with a full charge and go only 50km. Driving from Dublin to Cork it won’t be 40mpg + unless your stuck on the bumper of a 40ft artic! My main point is that aside from the EV drivetrain the Outlander is a very old design and one that was never class leading to begin with so I fail to see the attraction. Sales figures would back this up too

I think you are in the wrong car. this is a PHEV, it can drive like an electric car on full battery without using the petrol at all. The electric to 100km will be faster than a petrol. It is listed even on the Mitsuibishi website to confirm the same



Unless you are doing a lot of mileage on the battery or within the battery then they probably dont make sense. But most people that are buying them can run nearly 90% on battery and it makes a huge saving

The odd trip on petrol down a motorway will not make a difference because the overall TCO is better.



Also again I am not sure why you say 30km only when nursing it along? anyone I have talked to said no problem with 30km, the range published is 50km, so if going slow you might get above the 30km but real world is 30km.....


Sales figured new in Ireland are slow because it is hugely overpriced....check the sales figured in the UK, it sell massively, hence why second hand coming into ireland are good value for low milage.....the high mileage ones oncarzone are been bought cheap in UK and brough over with big margin.....

Casati

stimpson wrote: »

Here’s 2 trips worth of data. 100 miles plus on the motorway at 40 mpg, and 35 miles with a quick splash and dash during the day, at ~100 mpg

Looks like for short run you are getting the most out of the plug in with great economy in fairness for that 1st trip. That a good use case for a PHEV I agree.

The second one though, if I’m reading this right you drove at avg speed of 62 kmph on the motorway and yielded just 39.5mpg? I presume traffic was v heavy but with a clear run driving at 120kmph it’s not going to near that level is it- ie it’s basically a 2.4 petrol naturally aspirated 2 tonne suv