Alternative options for 20 acres : Unimproved meadows

80sDiesel

The lease is ending this year on land that i inherited and i was looking at my options:

Its 20 odd acres , 4k+ rent .

I am interested in nature/unimproved meadows etc so my idea would be to have no animals on the land from march to August ( no fert ), hay meadow cut, manure and repeat.

What would a farmer pay for say taking a hay cut , and manure ( or cows from august to March ).

Realise there prob is more money in leasing/forestry but monetary gain isnt a motivation here.
( I would look though into any new Glas schemes when they come online)

Bass Reeves

Not a lot. More than likely you find a nice gangster to come in take one monster cut of weeds in August and overwinter on it then until following March and repeat the process.If you are not going to farm it yourself rent it and try not to interfere in the farming process. 4k is goodish money I be letting him at it.

80sDiesel

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Not a lot. More than likely you find a nice gangster to come in take one monster cut of weeds in August and overwinter on it then until following March and repeat the process.If you are not going to farm it yourself rent it and try not to interfere in the farming process. 4k is goodish money I be letting him at it.

I am replacing the new farming process with an old farming process

Donald Trump

80sDiesel wrote: »

I am replacing the new farming process with an old farming process

Not knocking you, but some "old methods" are "old" for various perfectly good reasons.




You know you could get that 4k tax free? If it's on decent land maybe you'd get it up to 5k a year tax free for the next 5 years.

Say my name

80sDiesel wrote: »

I am replacing the new farming process with an old farming process

I take it the manure is not artificial fertilizer?

You're to be commended for breaking the norm but how does the hay and manure arrangement work with the tenant?

Then is the manure, slurry or dung/and composted before application from that tenant? If you could compost it under a sheet of plastic it would retain more nutrients too.

Don't forget burnt lime used to be used as an amendment then years ago but it depends what kind of plant species you want on your land.

There could a rabbit hole there.

Panch18

80sDiesel wrote: »

The lease is ending this year on land that i inherited and i was looking at my options:

Its 20 odd acres , 4k+ rent .

I am interested in nature/unimproved meadows etc so my idea would be to have no animals on the land from march to August ( no fert ), hay meadow cut, manure and repeat.

What would a farmer pay for say taking a hay cut , and manure ( or cows from august to March ).

Realise there prob is more money in leasing/forestry but monetary gain isnt a motivation here.
( I would look though into any new Glas schemes when they come online)

If you want to do that then best bet is to do it yourself where you are then in control of everything. Get a contractor in to do the hay and buy a few autumn weanlings to out winter

Say my name

Actually the poster Capercaille might be worth a natter to on here.

He's doing similar I believe in Mayo with the intention of saving the corncrake with success it seems.

A private message his way might be no harm to get the oul brain cogs moving.

80sDiesel

Panch18 wrote: »

If you want to do that then best bet is to do it yourself where you are then in control of everything. Get a contractor in to do the hay and buy a few autumn weanlings to out winter

Yeah something like that. How does it work with a contractor? Does he pay to do it and he sells it on?

What are my other options re weanlings. Don't have any interest in animals . If I paid a contractor to spread slurry or whatever how would that work with the grass not getting eaten in between hay cuts?

80sDiesel

Say my name wrote: »

Actually the poster Capercaille might be worth a natter to on here.

He's doing similar I believe in Mayo with the intention of saving the corncrake with success it seems.

A private message his way might be no harm to get the oul brain cogs moving.

Thanks will check out his posts.

80sDiesel

Say my name wrote: »

I take it the manure is not artificial fertilizer?

You're to be commended for breaking the norm but how does the hay and manure arrangement work with the tenant?

Then is the manure, slurry or dung/and composted before application from that tenant? If you could compost it under a sheet of plastic it would retain more nutrients too.

Don't forget burnt lime used to be used as an amendment then years ago but it depends what kind of plant species you want on your land.

There could a rabbit hole there.

I have another small parcel of land which I started this year with the old farming process.. I will be creating compost from wood chips and the hay cut and will be spreading that. 20 acres is too large for that but that lime idea is good. Will do some research.

80sDiesel

Donald Trump wrote: »

Not knocking you, but some "old methods" are "old" for various perfectly good reasons.




You know you could get that 4k tax free? If it's on decent land maybe you'd get it up to 5k a year tax free for the next 5 years.

Yep i know about the tax thing but it's more fun to try to do something different. The next guy can do with it as his pleases.

This video has some good advice re meadow management.
https://youtu.be/eHsgWdB5FVY

gozunda

80sDiesel wrote: »

I have another small parcel of land which I started this year with the old farming process.. I will be creating compost from wood chips and the hay cut and will be spreading that. 20 acres is too large for that but that lime idea is good. Will do some research.

Compost from woodchip can be problematic as it has a tendency to lock up Nitrogen in the soil. Also slower to be broken down into soil humus imo than other types of compost.

If it's mixed with for example horse manure and then well composted before spreading then that will be better for the soil.

I think you are suggesting having cattle on the land over winter? What is the soil type? Heavy or light? You risk the ground becoming badly poached if the ground is heavy / poor drainage/ or overstocked tbh.

Markcheese

Can you get an ag advisor, Who'd give you a bit of advice on environmental schemes available,
Plan on as much flexabity as possible, good hay is hard tó Make (That's why people móved to silage), be prepared to make haylage or similar...
Winter stocking may need flexibility top..
Is organic an option (may be of no benefit to you),they loose bed more, so have manure.. (Which they may not be keen on giving up)
and finding a local farmer who's on the same wavelength would help... Local, because if you want the manure brought back and spread...

Other thing would be ponds, if you have a couple of low spots on the land, even small ponds can add massively to biodiversity.... And and small rough patches could be forested... Again great for bio diversity (not sure what the smallest grant aided forestry block is, it used to be quarter acre in one block...)

Castlekeeper

Saying the obvious but just meadowing without livestock grazing and/or returning manure will deplete the soil, and it's probably well depleted as it is. A contractor will just complete machinery tasks to your instruction eg cutting, baling, ploughing etc. The hay will then be your own baby to feed/sell/store. Unless you're in the Burren or somewhere similar, outwintering stock will damage your soil. I wouldn't be worried about weeds in a well managed low input system, they're mainly the curse of poor farming and/or industrial systems. Maybe try reading "Wilding" by Isabella Tree
Would agrofrestry be an option for some of it? Maybe regenerative farming to restore
biodiversity and fertility?
Best of luck and I hope you get lots of enjoyment our of it.

80sDiesel

gozunda wrote: »

Compost from woodchip can be problematic as it has a tendency to lock up Nitrogen in the soil. Also slower to be broken down into soil humus imo than other types of compost.

If it's mixed with for example horse manure and then well composted before spreading then that will be better for the soil.

I think you are suggesting having cattle on the land over winter? What is the soil type? Heavy or light? You risk the ground becoming badly poached if the ground is heavy / poor drainage/ or overstocked tbh.

Thanks. Yes it will be well composted and I will add some 'soil renew' to aid the breakdown. Figure I only need to add it every 2nd year or so so will be well compost.

Re cattle. I don't necessarily want any cattle but I am guessing that I will need to take an Autumn cut if I don't.

Edit: good idea to mix it with some horse manure.

80sDiesel

Markcheese wrote: »

Can you get an ag advisor, Who'd give you a bit of advice on environmental schemes available,
Plan on as much flexabity as possible, good hay is hard tó Make (That's why people móved to silage), be prepared to make haylage or similar...
Winter stocking may need flexibility top..
Is organic an option (may be of no benefit to you),they loose bed more, so have manure.. (Which they may not be keen on giving up)
and finding a local farmer who's on the same wavelength would help... Local, because if you want the manure brought back and spread...

Other thing would be ponds, if you have a couple of low spots on the land, even small ponds can add massively to biodiversity.... And and small rough patches could be forested... Again great for bio diversity (not sure what the smallest grant aided forestry block is, it used to be quarter acre in one block...)

Thanks. Don't really mind if it is hay or haylage once it's a late cut.
I planted a few hundred native trees on my existing place and intend to plant on this place but it will be groves rather than forestry.

80sDiesel

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Saying the obvious but just meadowing without livestock grazing and/or returning manure will deplete the soil, and it's probably well depleted as it is. A contractor will just complete machinery tasks to your instruction eg cutting, baling, ploughing etc. The hay will then be your own baby to feed/sell/store. Unless you're in the Burren or somewhere similar, outwintering stock will damage your soil. I wouldn't be worried about weeds in a well managed low input system, they're mainly the curse of poor farming and/or industrial systems. Maybe try reading "Wilding" by Isabella Tree
Would agrofrestry be an option for some of it? Maybe regenerative farming to restore
biodiversity and fertility?
Best of luck and I hope you get lots of enjoyment our of it.

Yes the whole plan is to bring back biodiversity by bringing the land back to pre 'italian rye' days.

gozunda

80sDiesel wrote: »

Thanks. Don't really mind if it is hay or haylage once it's a late cut.
I planted a few hundred native trees on my existing place and intend to plant on this place but it will be groves rather than forestry.

Have you looked at the agroforestry grant scheme?

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/grants/establishment-grants/agroforestry/

Water John

Sadly the Organic Scheme is closed again. That would have given €1,760/yr for the first 2 years and €1,360/yr after that. That would be a good start if it opens again.
There was a guy on ETTG a few weeks ago, from Longford. May have been in the agroforestry scheme. Search RTE Player.

_Brian

Water John wrote: »

Sadly the Organic Scheme is closed again. That would have given €1,760/yr for the first 2 years and €1,360/yr after that. That would be a good start if it opens again.
There was a guy on ETTG a few weeks ago, from Longford. May have been in the agroforestry scheme. Search RTE Player.

Priority in the Organic applications was given to dairy, haven’t seen any breakdown yet on what farm types were accepted.

80sDiesel

The agroforestry is something I will think about.

Thanks for all your replies. Since I am currently managing 10 acres in the old way I figure would be too much of a step to do 20 acres just yet so I will put it on hold for now and lease for 3 yrs. Will plant some trees on the border for now.

coolshannagh28

80sDiesel wrote: »

The agroforestry is something I will think about.

Thanks for all your replies. Since I am currently managing 10 acres in the old way I figure would be too much of a step to do 20 acres just yet so I will put it on hold for now and lease for 3 yrs. Will plant some trees on the border for now.

The agroforestry scheme may be improved when the forestry sector comes up for review shortly .

Donald Trump

80sDiesel wrote: »

The agroforestry is something I will think about.

Thanks for all your replies. Since I am currently managing 10 acres in the old way I figure would be too much of a step to do 20 acres just yet so I will put it on hold for now and lease for 3 yrs. Will plant some trees on the border for now.

20 acres is a decent enough size for you to manage it with contractors. What I mean is that if you want to make your July hay, you would have no problem getting someone in on contract to mow it for you. And then a local fella to turn it for you. And sure if you want to go completely mental traditional, keep an acre back to cut with a scythe and turn it by hand and make haycocks too . Hours of fun for the whole family.



You'd just be taking the risk of making it (weather) and shifting it. Possibly storing it too until you could sell it but if it was anything like the last year or so, you'd shift it out of the field handy


If you do set it out, do it for the 5 years and get your tax free. If you have an outside job and are paying top rate tax, then it's a decent saving. If you don't need the money, sure put it aside and have a nice big lump sum there to do something with on the land in 5 years. Or get your 4000-5000 a year into your hand and spend it on the other 10 acres you are taking care of now.

80sDiesel

Donald Trump wrote: »

20 acres is a decent enough size for you to manage it with contractors. What I mean is that if you want to make your July hay, you would have no problem getting someone in on contract to mow it for you. And then a local fella to turn it for you. And sure if you want to go completely mental traditional, keep an acre back to cut with a scythe and turn it by hand and make haycocks too . Hours of fun for the whole family.



You'd just be taking the risk of making it (weather) and shifting it. Possibly storing it too until you could sell it but if it was anything like the last year or so, you'd shift it out of the field handy


If you do set it out, do it for the 5 years and get your tax free. If you have an outside job and are paying top rate tax, then it's a decent saving. If you don't need the money, sure put it aside and have a nice big lump sum there to do something with on the land in 5 years. Or get your 4000-5000 a year into your hand and spend it on the other 10 acres you are taking care of now.

Yes just checked and yes it's not tax free if it's only for 3 years. Will have to reconsider. I pay the highrate of tax.

It doesn't have to be hay ( better for seed dispersal) but sileage will do if weather is bad. ( The hay meadow is only for biodiversity )

Scythe. Check. I have an Austrian scythe which I will be using this summer on 10 acres. Will be my summer holidays Will have been a few years till the sound of blade sharpening and peening was heard around the hills. Will give the locals something to talk about.
No haystacks as the grass will be used for a large compost heap.

The problem I have is what do I do between the July cut and March if I don't have or don't want to own animals. The Autumn grass growth may overtake any wildflowers I am trying to establish and then at some point the land will need manure for health. ( I know the local farmers quite well so guessing would be no problem to let one of them use it in the Autumn in exchange for say fixing any fences that are down. Would save me alot of hassle. Any downside to that? )

Donald Trump

80sDiesel wrote: »

Yes just checked and yes it's not tax free if it's only for 3 years. Will have to reconsider. I pay the highrate of tax.

It doesn't have to be hay ( better for seed dispersal) but sileage will do if weather is bad. ( The hay meadow is only for biodiversity )

Scythe. Check. I have an Austrian scythe which I will be using this summer on 10 acres. Will be my summer holidays Will have been a few years till the sound of blade sharpening and peening was heard around the hills. Will give the locals something to talk about.
No haystacks as the grass will be used for a large compost heap.

The problem I have is what do I do between the July cut and March if I don't have or don't want to own animals. The Autumn grass growth may overtake any wildflowers I am trying to establish and then at some point the land will need manure for health. ( I know the local farmers quite well so guessing would be no problem to let one of them use it in the Autumn in exchange for say fixing any fences that are down. Would save me alot of hassle. Any downside to that? )

Well your other option might be to take a cut of silage off it later on (or set it to someone for that purpose). If you let someone run animals across it for the aftergrass then you should still be able to get a few quid for it given it is 20 acres. The big disadvantage of having animals on it would be at the tail end of the year if the ground gets wet and they start making muck or poaching the ground. Poaching is basically when the cattle's feet make lots of holes in the field and then water lies in them. It's not good for the nutrients or the soil condition.



I'm not sure 100% of your background but I suppose it is better not to assume things. Generally, when someone makes silage you want to make it before the grass gets too strong - i.e. goes to seed. This is not so much of a concern with hay but it is for silage because it can affect the quality greatly. So if you have a field locked up for hay and then in July you make silage from it, it won't be as high quality as if it had been cut earlier. That is not to say that you can't make it - just that it won't be as good. If you are not fertilizing it early in the year, it won't be as pronounced though as it will take a bit longer to grow anyway.


I don't know about making compost from hay. I don't know what you would mix it with or treat it to help it compost. Even then, I would imagine that it would be far far quicker to rot/compost if you just did it on the cut grass. Even then you would just be making bad silage and wasting it. The quickest way to convert it to compost would be to make decent fodder and then let an animal eat it and collect it on the way out the other end!

Water John

First time iv'e heard a Donald Trump talking a lot of sense.

The seed dispersal of the July cut, used in Glas now, is the tedding of the sward 2 times. whether it becomes silage, haylage or hay after that is immaterial.

Autumn and spring grazing to a farmer in return for muck/slurry.
I'd spring gaze too up until April. Cattle off the land by say 20th Oct.

uck51js9zml2yt

Interesting thread.
A question on cutting with a scythe.

What's the optimal length of grass to be cut?
Roughly how long would it take to cut an acre.
I've not used one on about 30 years.

Melodeon

Frank Calm Wing wrote: »

Interesting thread.
A question on cutting with a scythe.

Roughly how long would it take to cut an acre.

It depends on the strength of the cider (go to 2:10 for scything shenanigans):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48OJrBmo9u0

80sDiesel

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well your other option might be to take a cut of silage off it later on (or set it to someone for that purpose). If you let someone run animals across it for the aftergrass then you should still be able to get a few quid for it given it is 20 acres. The big disadvantage of having animals on it would be at the tail end of the year if the ground gets wet and they start making muck or poaching the ground. Poaching is basically when the cattle's feet make lots of holes in the field and then water lies in them. It's not good for the nutrients or the soil condition.



I'm not sure 100% of your background but I suppose it is better not to assume things. Generally, when someone makes silage you want to make it before the grass gets too strong - i.e. goes to seed. This is not so much of a concern with hay but it is for silage because it can affect the quality greatly. So if you have a field locked up for hay and then in July you make silage from it, it won't be as high quality as if it had been cut earlier. That is not to say that you can't make it - just that it won't be as good. If you are not fertilizing it early in the year, it won't be as pronounced though as it will take a bit longer to grow anyway.


I don't know about making compost from hay. I don't know what you would mix it with or treat it to help it compost. Even then, I would imagine that it would be far far quicker to rot/compost if you just did it on the cut grass. Even then you would just be making bad silage and wasting it. The quickest way to convert it to compost would be to make decent fodder and then let an animal eat it and collect it on the way out the other end!

Great info. ( Farming is one generation back so I have limited info) I would not have issues with poaching as its sloping land. Yes, i wont be using fert so even a late july cut would be ok i guess.

Composting: Hay (green) needs to be mixed with brown ( manure/woodchips/leaves) to get it to work. I have woodchips from some spruce i cut down.
I have been doing it on a small scale to experiment and it always amazes me how quickly it turns to compost. Done right ,you can get a temp reading of over 50 celcius. Easy to add trace elements too.

80sDiesel

Water John wrote: »

First time iv'e heard a Donald Trump talking a lot of sense.

The seed dispersal of the July cut, used in Glas now, is the tedding of the sward 2 times. whether it becomes silage, haylage or hay after that is immaterial.

Autumn and spring grazing to a farmer in return for muck/slurry.
I'd spring gaze too up until April. Cattle off the land by say 20th Oct.

Had to look up tedding. So is it normal to do that to sileage/haylage even if you were not in Glas. That is perfect as i thought that was only done with Hay.
My plans will be to get on the next GLAS schemes. I even have hen harriers around.

Figure i could just let a spring graze as to not muck up the place prior to winter

80sDiesel

Frank Calm Wing wrote: »

Interesting thread.
A question on cutting with a scythe.

What's the optimal length of grass to be cut?
Roughly how long would it take to cut an acre.
I've not used one on about 30 years.

They say a skilled guy can do an acre in a day but i figure i would be lucky to get half that at the start.

80sDiesel

Thinking it thru. Since it's part inherited I will need to stump up cash to pay my siblings.( No worries there re family ,thank 'God') The ROI on a 3yr lease is very low so I might as well spend a penny as well as a pound and go all in on the unimproved meadow(bio-diveraity) .

Mooooo

5 years is the minimum for tax free lease. With regard to the ground and what your planning, prob better off checking if you can enter any environmental schemes with it in terms of getting any financial return.
From my own point of view with regard to what you are doing there is little value in it for a farmer to do what you want. Silage would be of low quality due to cutting date and hay is used less and less. Also use all slurry on my own ground which with the way regs may be going most people will. If it was on a 5 yr lease it would be a different story

80sDiesel

Mooooo wrote: »

5 years is the minimum for tax free lease. With regard to the ground and what your planning, prob better off checking if you can enter any environmental schemes with it in terms of getting any financial return.
From my own point of view with regard to what you are doing there is little value in it for a farmer to do what you want. Silage would be of low quality due to cutting date and hay is used less and less. Also use all slurry on my own ground which with the way regs may be going most people will. If it was on a 5 yr lease it would be a different story

For those on the glas traditional hay meadow scheme what options do they have if the weather is too poor for hay?

Water John

In Glas you are to ted it twice, one of them would be for raying in for the baler any way. You can make silage if the weather is unsuitable.
I also thought the July silage would be poor but it's much better than expected.
Have used it when finishing cattle. Sold some to a dairy farmer, cautioned him that it might affect milk yield. He was very pleased with it and cows held yield.
I think that has been the experience of Glas participants.

A field cannot draw money for both Glas and Organic.

quietsailor

if you're talking about hay would small square bales for the horse market be profitable -- be warned they are incredibly hard work, even with modern machinery.

80sDiesel

What if i did the following:

5 year lease subject to the following:

1. Land must be free of animals from mid march to mid july.
2. No Fert/Pesticides allowed.
3. Hay/sileage/Haylage cut mid july . Must be ted twice

Anthing else ?

I get what i want and the local farmer has use of the land.

What kind of discount should i apply for such restrictions ? I want the farmer to be happy too and be able to make his living.

(Met(ambushed by) a local farmer today when i was on the 10 acres. Agreed hay in return for some mature. Will still have to scythe about 5 acres where i have some groves , rought parts and the boundary.)

Mooooo

Dunno about others on here, but just from my point of view I wouldn't be interested in it personally. Nothing against what you are doing

80sDiesel

Mooooo wrote: »

Dunno about others on here, but just from my point of view I wouldn't be interested in it personally. Nothing against what you are doing

No problems but from zero to 4K( normal say rent) what would be your price.

Donald Trump

80sDiesel wrote: »

What if i did the following:

5 year lease subject to the following:

1. Land must be free of animals from mid march to mid july.
2. No Fert/Pesticides allowed.
3. Hay/sileage/Haylage cut mid july . Must be ted twice

Anthing else ?

I get what i want and the local farmer has use of the land.

What kind of discount should i apply for such restrictions ? I want the farmer to be happy too and be able to make his living.

(Met(ambushed by) a local farmer today when i was on the 10 acres. Agreed hay in return for some mature. Will still have to scythe about 5 acres where i have some groves , rought parts and the boundary.)

On the manure. If you have fairly intensive activities in your area, some lads will more than happily give you dung/manure for free (maybe even spread it for a small charge) if they need to export it.


If they have too many animals on their farm compared to their acreage ("too many" means as calculated by a defined formula) then they can get into trouble and lose payments. If they spread the slurry/dung on your land and you sign the export form for them, it can save them money. But that is only true if they are "overstocked" according to that formula.

Donald Trump

Mooooo wrote: »

Dunno about others on here, but just from my point of view I wouldn't be interested in it personally. Nothing against what you are doing

I'd say that if he offered the meadow to you for July for free to mow it, make hay and take it away you'd be interested