Shower pump failed due to lack of heat control

fletch

A friend of mine got a new shower pump 6 months ago. It has stopped working. She contacted the installer/plumber and was told that it wasn't covered under warranty due to the lack of a temperature control on the heating system.

Is it reasonable that the water pump would fail so quickly if the water was too hot passing through it?

Sleeper12

Maximum temperature for most pumps & showers is usually 65c. The installer should check the maximum water temperature at the time of installation. If this wasn't done then it's their fault. Warranty or no warranty. Its very possible that the maximum temperature was fine on installation but someone turned up the heat afterwards or for the thermostat to have blown after installation. In this case its not the installers fault.

fletch

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Its very possible that the maximum temperature was fine on installation but someone turned up the heat afterwards

Apparently there is no temperature control on the system so nobody could turn it up afterwards...

rightjob!

Also if they use the immersion to heat the water and the stat is gone on that it can damage pumps.

Dardania

fletch wrote: »

Apparently there is no temperature control on the system so nobody could turn it up afterwards...

In that case, you must assume that the water temper running through the shower pump is up and approaching 80C, basically close to the max output of a typical domestic gas boiler. And as rightjob! says, there's the possibility of electric immersion introducing heat to the system.

sullzz

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Maximum temperature for most pumps & showers is usually 65c. The installer should check the maximum water temperature at the time of installation. If this wasn't done then it's their fault.

In fairness now, that's BS.
I can hold my hands up and say I have never checked any appliance possible max temperature when retrofitting pumps to any job.
And I would certainly not offer warranty fix/ replacement for faults occurred afterwards due to high temperature findings afterwards.

sullzz

sullzz wrote: »

In fairness now, that's BS.
I can hold my hands up and say I have never checked any appliance possible max temperature when retrofitting pumps to any job.
And I would certainly not offer warranty fix/ replacement for faults occurred afterwards due to high temperature findings afterwards.

In fairness now, that’s BS.

Sleeper12 knows his showers and pumps. He’s a multi-brand manufacturer trained installer/technician so he’s the man with the facts. If he says it’s 65 deg max hot water feed then that’s what it is.

You don’t check the specs or temperature by your own admission so it comes as no surprise to read that you won’t offer a warranty.

Bearing that in mind, you’re probably not best placed to be giving sound advice to the OP either.

Sleeper12

sullzz wrote:

In fairness now, that's BS. I can hold my hands up and say I have never checked any appliance possible max temperature when retrofitting pumps to any job. And I would certainly not offer warranty fix/ replacement for faults occurred afterwards due to high temperature findings afterwards.

Like it or not you are the installer even when retrofitting. You are supposed to follow installation instructions. The instructions give you a maximum operating temperature. It is your job to ensure that it doesn't exceed the maximum temperature.

A multi meter on the thermostat in the immersion will tell you in seconds if it's working or not. Next you make sure that the stat isn't set too high. This takes another few seconds. You don't even have to have hot water in the cylinder to carry out these quick checks.

Would you retro fit a pump knowing that hot is taken from the wrong place? Knowing that air will be sucked into the pump? Tiny air bubbles hitting the impeller at speed is like sand blasting it.

The homeowner might as well swap the pumps themselves if that is all that the installer is doing. Basin flexis are simple to remove from the pipe. Live neutral and earth on the spur is little more than wiring a plug. The installer is there to ensure that it's installed correctly.

Believe it or not you are liable for the damaged pump if you didn't install it according to the manufacturer instructions. This includes retrofit.

Sleeper12

JayZeus wrote:

Sleeper12 knows his showers and pumps. He’s a multi-brand manufacturer trained installer/technician so he’s the man with the facts. If he says it’s 65 deg max hot water feed then that’s what it is.

I don't actually bother with pumps myself anymore. I'm too busy with showers but if you google the pump brand the tech data will give you maximum temperature, pressure etc. Almost everything is 65c maximum temperature. Showers usually have a wax cartridge. We all know what happens to wax if it gets too hot.

If I replace a wax cartridge today & the immersion stat it broken then they will need a new cartridge in a few months. I couldn't look them in the face for the second cartridge. I couldn't blame Triton or Mira for dodgy parts. If the stat is broken there is nothing wrong with telling the client that it needs replacing but you have to charge more than quoted. I wouldn't myself as the stat is only a tenner. I'd only charge for the part.

sullzz

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Like it or not you are the installer even when retrofitting. You are supposed to follow installation instructions. The instructions give you a maximum operating temperature. It is your job to ensure that it doesn't exceed the maximum temperature.

A multi meter on the thermostat in the immersion will tell you in seconds if it's working or not. Next you make sure that the stat isn't set too high. This takes another few seconds. You don't even have to have hot water in the cylinder to carry out these quick checks.

Would you retro fit a pump knowing that hot is taken from the wrong place? Knowing that air will be sucked into the pump? Tiny air bubbles hitting the impeller at speed is like sand blasting it.

The homeowner might as well swap the pumps themselves if that is all that the installer is doing. Basin flexis are simple to remove from the pipe. Live neutral and earth on the spur is little more than wiring a plug. The installer is there to ensure that it's installed correctly.

Believe it or not you are liable for the damaged pump if you didn't install it according to the manufacturer instructions. This includes retrofit.

So what if the immersion stat fails the day after you fit the pump?

EdgeCase

If the water temperature is outside the range that's specified on the pump, you either bought the wrong pump or installed it incorrectly on a system it's not compatible with.

It's not the pump manufacturer's problem.

sullzz

JayZeus wrote: »

In fairness now, that’s BS.

Sleeper12 knows his showers and pumps. He’s a multi-brand manufacturer trained installer/technician so he’s the man with the facts. If he says it’s 65 deg max hot water feed then that’s what it is.

You don’t check the specs or temperature by your own admission so it comes as no surprise to read that you won’t offer a warranty.

Bearing that in mind, you’re probably not best placed to be giving sound advice to the OP either.

You assume a lot without knowing anything about me, i challenge anybody on here to be honest about if they check stats as they fit pumps.

sullzz

EdgeCase wrote: »

If the water temperature is outside the range that's specified on the pump, you either bought the wrong pump or installed it incorrectly on a system it's not compatible with.

It's not the pump manufacturer's problem.

But if an immersion stat fails the day after you fit the pump and destroys the pump, is it the pump installers problem??

EdgeCase

sullzz wrote: »

But if an immersion stat fails the day after you fit the pump and destroys the pump, is it the pump installers problem??

If an immersion stat fails, it can do a lot of damage to fittings that aren't rated for more than 65C, including things like washing machines if connected to it.

The warranty would be an issue for the stat not the pump.

If the water wasn't heating to uncontrolled temperatures when the pump was fitted, it should never have been fitted in the first place, without resolving the over temp issue.

Also having uncontrolled temperatures in a hot water system is very dangerous and poses a significant scald risk.

sullzz

EdgeCase wrote: »

If an immersion stat fails, it can do a lot of damage to fittings that aren't rated for more than 65C, including things like washing machines if connected to it.

The warranty would be an issue for the stat not the pump.

If the water wasn't heating to uncontrolled temperatures when the pump was fitted, it should never have been fitted in the first place, without resolving the over temp issue.

Also having uncontrolled temperatures in a hot water system is very dangerous and poses a significant scald risk.

And if you were fitting a pump to an existing system would you test the immersion stat with a multimeter and the cylinder stat and boiler stat prior to fitting?

sullzz

sullzz wrote: »

You assume a lot without knowing anything about me, i challenge anybody on here to be honest about if they check stats as they fit pumps.

I assume nothing. You said yourself, you don't check it and you don't offer a warranty when you fit something that's supposed to have a max of 65 degress on the feed.

On the basis you neither preach or practice what the manufacturers specify, something that absolutely *can* cause a fault/failure, I'd be inclined to ignore what you'd have to say about it. You don't do things properly, by your own admission.

If you're supposed to do something, you should do it, especially when someone else is paying you to do the job the way it should be done. The fact you don't or that others don't certainly doesn't mean it's to be accepted. You should check the stat. It's such a simple thing to do and would take just a couple of minutes. Why wouldn't you, or anyone else fitting a pump for a paying customer?

There's no good reason from a customers perspective, that's for sure.

Sleeper12

sullzz wrote:

So what if the immersion stat fails the day after you fit the pump?

Then It's not your fault. I believe I said this to op originally.
However if you use this as a cop out rather than check the stat they you'd be described as a cowboy installer.
I think any plumber will agree that when you do a retro fit you are legally taking on responsibility for the whole installation. This is the case with electricians too.
It tells you in the installation instructions the way it needs to be installed. It's your responsibility to ensure that it is installed correctly according to the manufacturer instructions full installation or retrofit

sullzz

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Then It's not your fault. I believe I said this to op originally.
However if you use this as a cop out rather than check the stat they you'd be described as a cowboy installer.
I think any plumber will agree that when you do a retro fit you are legally taking on responsibility for the whole installation. This is the case with electricians too.
It tells you in the installation instructions the way it needs to be installed. It's your responsibility to ensure that it is installed correctly according to the manufacturer instructions full installation or retrofit

Grand, your entitled to your opinion.
If you think every plumber tests stats on boilers, cylinders and immersion before fitting a shower pump youre living on another planet.
I realise it is in the manual as per manufacturers instructions, but get real.
I get slated for speaking honestly and regardless of what you might think i can guarantee the majority of lads on this forum dont test stats before fitting pumps.
I'm sure people are going to come on here and state they always test them, it's an anonymous forum, of course they will, for goodness sake, I'm sure you have fitted at least one pump in your lifetime without testing all stats.

Sleeper12

sullzz wrote: »

Grand, your entitled to your opinion.
If you think every plumber tests stats on boilers, cylinders and immersion before fitting a shower pump youre living on another planet.
I realise it is in the manual as per manufacturers instructions, but get real.
I get slated for speaking honestly and regardless of what you might think i can guarantee the majority of lads on this forum dont test stats before fitting pumps.
I'm sure people are going to come on here and state they always test them, it's an anonymous forum, of course they will, for goodness sake, I'm sure have fitted at least one pump in your lifetime without testing all stats.

I'm explaining to you the legal responsibility you take on even with a retrofit. The instructions are in the box. If you chose not to follow them & the manufacturer wont honor the 5 years warranty because it's installed wrong, who do you suppose is at fault? Will you stand over your work & pay to have the pump you damaged repaired or replaced?



We have a check list when installing electric showers ( I used to have one for pumps too). Each box has to be checked before we leave the home. The check list is filed with a copy of the invoice & kept on file for Seven years.

ted1

sullzz wrote: »

Grand, your entitled to your opinion.
If you think every plumber tests stats on boilers, cylinders and immersion before fitting a shower pump youre living on another planet.
I realise it is in the manual as per manufacturers instructions, but get real.
I get slated for speaking honestly and regardless of what you might think i can guarantee the majority of lads on this forum dont test stats before fitting pumps.
I'm sure people are going to come on here and state they always test them, it's an anonymous forum, of course they will, for goodness sake, I'm sure have fitted at least one pump in your lifetime without testing all stats.

I hope you never do a job for any of my family members.

Wearb

ted1 wrote: »

I hope you never do a job for any of my family members.

To be fair to both parties here it should be said that one describes it as it should be the other as he perceives it to be.
If you want to be aware of this sort of honest information, then don't be too critical . Especially don't make it personal or you will be in breach of board rules/charters.

sullzz

ted1 wrote: »

I hope you never do a job for any of my family members.

Really ?
Maybe if i call your house with a paper checklist and tick off a few boxes and show you this at the end of the job you will be happy. Even though I won't check the stat on the immersion, the cylinder or the boiler.
But you will be convinced I did because I filled out a checklist and told you that I checked them .
And by doing this i will be covered when the stat does fail.

How does that sound ?

Wearb

This thread has run its course and if left open will only turn into a tit for tat discussion that will benefit no one Therefore I am closing it