Commencing works before grant of PP issued

iRos

Hello everybody,

Hopefully someone can advice me what to do?

Two months ago we have applied for planning permission involving two separate rear extensions totalling 18 square meters and repositioning front door.

Now we have the "notification of decision to grant permission" from council already in place but it appears we still need to wait another 4-6 weeks before works can commence. Currently we are renting an alternative accommodation and waiting for another 6 weeks it will cost us time and money.

The builder is lined up and ready to start asap and afraid loosing him for months if we are to wait another 6 weeks.

What risks will involve if we were to start works from the back with extensions which would have been exempt from planning anyway if it wasn't for the front alterations (repositioning front door)?

Thank you so much.

rayjdav

You need to submit a commencement notice and these dates will not add up.

iRos

rayjdav wrote: »

You need to submit a commencement notice and these dates will not add up.

Thanks Rayjdav
What exactly do you mean here?

Our architect says he included the rear extended parts into drawings along with the front alterations and he suggests we do not commence any works related to these drawings. We trust he might be right but what real risks we would carry if we were to start works ?

Gumbo

iRos wrote: »

Hello everybody,

Hopefully someone can advice me what to do?

Two months ago we have applied for planning permission involving two separate rear extensions totalling 18 square meters and repositioning front door.

Now we have the "notification of decision to grant permission" from council already in place but it appears we still need to wait another 4-6 weeks before works can commence. Currently we are renting an alternative accommodation and waiting for another 6 weeks it will cost us time and money.

The builder is lined up and ready to start asap and afraid loosing him for months if we are to wait another 6 weeks.

What risks will involve if we were to start works from the back with extensions which would have been exempt from planning anyway if it wasn't for the front alterations (repositioning front door)?

Thank you so much.

rayjdav wrote: »

You need to submit a commencement notice and these dates will not add up.

You need to lodge a Commencement Notice to Building Control.
On this form you input the date of the FINAL GRANT. Building Control Admin staff check the planning register to confirm the Grant Date matches whats on the system, also to check that the square footage marked on the Commencement Notice matches what was granted Planning.

If you don't have a Final Grant then the Commencement Notice will be invalidated and returned to you.


https://www.localgov.ie/en/bcms

iRos wrote: »

Thanks Rayjdav
What exactly do you mean here?

Our architect says he included the rear extended parts into drawings along with the front alterations and he suggests we do not commence any works related to these drawings. We trust he might be right but what real risks we would carry if we were to start works ?

You cannot get sign off from this Architect or any other professional as they cannot state that the works are in compliance with the Building Control Regulations because they are not. you may also need a CC from the council on Completion and you cannot get this without a CN in place and there is no legal mechanism for retrospectively getting it.

dusteeroads

iRos wrote: »

Thanks Rayjdav
What exactly do you mean here?

Our architect says he included the rear extended parts into drawings along with the front alterations and he suggests we do not commence any works related to these drawings. We trust he might be right but what real risks we would carry if we were to start works ?

...and you want the internet to contradict him.
I would terminate appointment if I was him.
Clients like you are not worth it.

TheBoyConor

Exactly. The certifier has to sign off that the build complies with building and building control regs. If you start building during the standstill and then put in your commencement notice and later ask your assigned certifier to sign off on everything, you are basically asking them to lie for you.

I think the actual real world risks to you are not terribly great but for the certifier to be found out to have lied and intentionally dawfaked notices and certifications is totally a career ending move. Your architect is right. Listen to them.

You will have and live in this house hopefully for many many years. Is 6 weeks really that big of a deal to wait?

Another option perhaps, would be to ask the builder to fit out or make habitable some of the existing house in advance of the main construction work. Might it be possible to live in one part of the house while the work goes on? It all depends on the scale and nature of the job though.

doug82

dusteeroads wrote: »

...and you want the internet to contradict him.
I would terminate appointment if I was him.
Clients like you are not worth it.

Bit harsh. If I was the OP I’d be dropping the architect for unnecessarily including exempted development in a planning application. They could have sought permission for the front works only. Correct me if I’m wrong but exempted development doesn’t require a CN so this delay could have been avoided

Gumbo

doug82 wrote: »

Bit harsh. If I was the OP I’d be dropping the architect for unnecessarily including exempted development in a planning application. They could have sought permission for the front works only. Correct me if I’m wrong but exempted development doesn’t require a CN so this delay could have been avoided

What makes you think the rear extensions are exempt?

iRos

Hi everyone

Thank you for all your opinions and advise.

One think I wanna say is I never meant or intended to put at risk anyones job or force anyone to indirectly lie on my behalf.

I was probably too quick coming in here looking for answers after I read late that night the new email from my architect where he stated that the Council issued Notice to grant permission. I was all exited reading that email until I read the last sentence and I quote "Overall, this is very positive but please note that work should not commence until grant of planning permission has been issued, i.e. at the end of a six week period from the date on the first letter" and I was like What?! Another 6 weeks?! I just couldn't wait until morning to call my architect and thought to look for answers here. But after I spoke to him this morning for an hour on the phone and then reading all the messages here I do recognise that I maybe asked a silly question. Apologies.

I am not too familiar with PP territory . The thing is our home was pyrite remediated last year. We had to vacate the dwelling in July 2018. Remediation works went on for 3 months and thinking this would be great opportunity to do some fabric improvements on insulation to reduce heat loss along with some restructuring , we negotiated with contractor that was carrying out remediation works to stop half way so that we could kick in and finish ourselves. So they benefited from this, signed off and left no problem. But it wasn't to be that easy. We never went back into the house since. We hired an architect in September that year but unfortunately he could only engage into works only in November due to being very busy. So he came up with good ideas and one think leading to another it all escalated really.

The answer to TheBoyConor 's question is now - NO, it is not a big deal to wait of course. It is well worth it. I would never jeopardise it all after all the wait. It would be silly honestly.

Thank you so much everyone it was very enjoyable and informative to read all your messages.

(Including dusteeroads's ����) fair play mate.

sydthebeat

Perhaps your architect should have clearly described the whole process, including time lines, at your early meetings.

TheBoyConor

Stopping a project mid flow and chopping and changing contractors is never really a good idea unless it's absolutely unavoidable.

dusteeroads

sydthebeat wrote: »

Perhaps your architect should have clearly described the whole process, including time lines, at your early meetings.

training or educating clients is not part of my breif ....

Graham

dusteeroads wrote: »

training or educating clients is not part of my breif ....

Clients generally employ an architect for the benefit of their professional expertise/experience. It would be a fairly poor professional that consciously decided not to share either with their client.

dusteeroads

is that not what the internet is for ?

Graham

Depends who your architect is I guess. :pac:

iRos

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Stopping a project mid flow and chopping and changing contractors is never really a good idea unless it's absolutely unavoidable.

It was unavoidable.

The agreement between Housing Agency and Contractor was to fix everything back exactly the way it was and that meant we would have to strip off everything from the walls and ceiling to follow our fabric improvements.

So we had to come to an agreement with them to stop half way , from which they benefited big time saving on time , labour and materials.

Well I know waiting is time exhausting but eventually we won't regret it a bit we did it now rather than later.

Thanks

iRos

sydthebeat wrote: »

Perhaps your architect should have clearly described the whole process, including time lines, at your early meetings.

Yes the architect described it initially of course. He is a good professional and a very nice man. It's jus that we have so much in our plate right now that we completely got confused or plain forgot the timescale we discussed back then.

looksee

Its easy to be knowlegeable about PP when you have gone through it, but heading into it there are so many things that you simply would not think of, or might misunderstand. This is especially true if your last PP experience was years ago when there was minimal control.

It really would be useful if there were a booklet stating the minimum information saying 'you will need to do this, this and this, check out the regulations xxx. And, when looking for a site or proposing to buy a house to restore be aware that this and this will apply. The information is out there, but how many people are aware of County Development Plans and the huge amount of information that can be gleaned from them, how many would be aware of Land Direct when trying to figure out if a site is even worth considering. How many people know how significant the Building Regs are, and how many professionals you need to build a house. And how many dodgy 'professionals' there are still out there (don't get me started on this...).

doug82

kceire wrote: »

What makes you think the rear extensions are exempt?

The last paragraph of the original post

sydthebeat

dusteeroads wrote: »

training or educating clients is not part of my breif ....

Wow.

i would have though a clear detailed explanation of the planning process by the professional to the lay person would be a matter of course, and a required professional practice, for an architect.

One of the first questions i ask a new client is if the have gone through a planning process recently and if not i give them a concise breakdown of policies, guide lines and time lines. 10 minutes usually does it.

i wouldnt dare tell them to go off and research it on the internet

Penn

doug82 wrote: »

The last paragraph of the original post

Extensions which comply with general exempted development requirements do not count as exempted development if constructed at the same time as the house. The issue being, the first condition attached to almost every grant of planning is that the development is carried out in accordance with the documents submitted with the application (save for any changes also conditioned by the Local Authority).

If you construct the house with an additional extension, even if it would normally meet exempted development requirements, you are then not building in accordance with the documents submitted, and therefore you have not built in accordance with the granted planning permission. The house as a whole becomes an unauthorised development. The argument would be that if you wanted to construct the additional floor space, you should have included that with the planning application.

If you want to build an exempted development extension, you must complete the house as per the granted planning permission, have it certified for compliance with planning, and then you may construct the extension. It's not an exempted development if built at the same time as the house, it's a bigger house that doesn't comply with the granted planning permission.