Restaurant Service Charge

Alkers

Hope I'm in the correct forum

Was out for a meal with the OH last night (long-established D4 restaurant) and we ended up both ordering the set menu. After we'd ordered we noticed that at the bottom of this menu it stated that a 10% service charge was applied to the set menu and then copped that there was something similar on the drinks menu i.e. all cocktails, spirits etc were subject to a 10% service charge in addition to the menu prices.

Now I'm well familiar with this being the case for parties or groups but this was right across the board and there was only the two of us.

Then at the end of the meal (paying by card) the waiter (who was inadvertently very rude to my OH) handed me the card machine and I had to go through the gratuity option in addition to the mandatory taken 10% service charge on most of the items we ordered. Made an already expensive night even more so!

I'm just wondering about this as I've not seen it before? Surely this is misleading at best if not false advertising the menu prices?

What are your thoughts?

I'm thinking about leaving a negative review for the restaurant in any case and just wanted to get peoples opinions on this aspect before including it.

Thanks

Dizzyblonde

Mod note: I've moved this to the Consumer Issues forum, it's much better suited to here

ohnonotgmail

If the service charge was mentioned on the menu i cant see how it could be false advertising. I wouldn;t be happy about the charge though and i wouldn't be adding a tip on top.

Lucan123

While it is not false advertising I do think it is misleading (cant they just add the compulsory 10pc to the price?)

I have noticed a few chains have this in small writing at the bottom of the menu - when I see it I always think if they are trying to pull a fast one with the menu what fast ones are they pulling with the quality of the food or hygiene in the kitchen. If I notice in time I will avoid them (including leaving before ordering)

I hope you didnt add any additional gratuity on the card machine

Alkers

Lucan123 wrote:

While it is not false advertising I do think it is misleading (cant they just add the compulsory 10pc to the price?)

Exactly, there's no reason to do it this way other than to mislead people!

Lucan123 wrote:

I hope you didnt add any additional gratuity on the card machine

I did as I felt a bit pressured by the waiter and then we saw the 10% service charge itemised on the bill also.

Under His Eye

Real sneaky having a service charge and then a tip option on the payment machine.

NSAman

Sorry Service charge is your tip. You would not be getting an extra tip no matter how much they pressured me into it.

Here is the states they have the compulsory tip based on service levels. I always ask the staff where this tip goes to, if it is shared amongst the staff, if it goes to the server personally or the company only gives a token tip based on the number of services the server gives.... it's amazing the different ways that they break up tips. If it is a pool then fine, if it is the server, then fine, if it goes to general pool... I prefer to tip in cash to the server directly.

I do not give a tip as well as a service charge though.

tvjunki

I would have thought a service charge is the same as gratuity. If that waiter was rude I definately would not give a gratuity on top of the service charge.
I have seen a service charge on large groups but not on two people.
Could be the customers are not leaving a gratuity because of the rude member of staff.
Would not be eating there again.

Why do restaurants have a service charge for 'large groups' out of curiousity (and why is it accepted as being ok)?

To my uneducated mind, a restaurant, hotel, pub, whatever has X amount of seats, and therefore can presumably cater to all of those seats. What difference does it make if 50 people go in to a restaurant together, or if 5 groups of 10 go in, or 10 groups of 5, etc.?

The same staff will be delivering the same food to the same tables, regardless? If anything, as a single larger group will likely be grouping their orders at the same time (ie all ordering starter, mains dessert at the same time) does it not actually make life a bit easier for the staff?

harr

I don’t like the service charge added to bills automatically as in my experience you just don’t get as good a service from waiters, you are basically awarding bad service in some places.
Also can we be sure the staff are getting the service charge.
I have managed to get the service charge removed from bills in past due to bad attitude and service from waiting staff .
And no way I would be adding a tip unless the service was exceptional.

the beer revolu

You are not obliged to pay a service charge, afaik.

rubadub

Lucan123 wrote: »

While it is not false advertising I do think it is misleading (cant they just add the compulsory 10pc to the price?)

+1, if everybody pays why list it.

Steak €10
service charge 10%
rent & rates 25%
cleaners 10%
advertsing 20%
owners holiday home fund 30%
insurance 30%

Just tell me the fecking price.

I heard of places in the US banning tipping and clearly stating on the menu that their staff are paid adequately. Some years ago a law was introduced in the US so if "tippable staff" had tips when combined with their "below normal minimum wage" did not add up to "normal minimum wage" then the restaurant owner had to pay the balance. i.e. in most (all?) states there are no waiters coming away below regular min wage, even though the official pay might be less. That was the excuse always trotted out & why people felt 100% obliged to tip in the US.

here is the law relating to pricing here
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1984/si/213/made/en/print

somesoldiers

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do restaurants have a service charge for 'large groups' out of curiousity (and why is it accepted as being ok)?

To my uneducated mind, a restaurant, hotel, pub, whatever has X amount of seats, and therefore can presumably cater to all of those seats. What difference does it make if 50 people go in to a restaurant together, or if 5 groups of 10 go in, or 10 groups of 5, etc.?

The same staff will be delivering the same food to the same tables, regardless? If anything, as a single larger group will likely be grouping their orders at the same time (ie all ordering starter, mains dessert at the same time) does it not actually make life a bit easier for the staff?

I was once told it is due to the extra work of having large group meals all ready at same time. To me a table of 10would be easier than 5*2

wally1990

https://www.ccpc.ie/business/help-for-business/guidelines-for-business/restaurants-and-cafes/

''The price list must indicate if there is


A service charge – and whether this is included in the price of the food''

davegilly

the beer revolu wrote: »

You are not obliged to pay a service charge, afaik.

I'm pretty sure this is right.

Anytime I see this charge on my bill I ask for it to be removed and I have never had an occasion where it wasn't removed. I get so annoyed over this that I then do not leave a tip either.

A tip should be based on the service you receive. Unfortunately the vast majority of the time the service isn't worthy of one.

rubadub

the beer revolu wrote: »

You are not obliged to pay a service charge, afaik.

Not certain what you mean by that. I certainly hear of people refusing to pay it, so the same "you are not obliged to pay" could be said of any service, getting your hair cut, a car washed etc.

But the way you say it sounds like there is zero issue with refusing it, and might leave people wondering if a charge for a service in a restaurant is different than any other service.

It is certainly recognized in law. So there is nothing dodgy about it legally.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1984/si/213/made/en/print

3. (1) Subject to the provisions of this Article, every person who carries on in the State the business of selling foods by retail shall display a notice or notices at the premises where the foods are sold —

(a) specifying each such food, and

(b) specifying in relation to each such food the price or prices charged therefor at the premises, and if the person charges a minimum price for any such food not included or not fully included in the prices aforesaid or makes (as a separate charge) a charge commonly known as a service charge or a charge commonly known as a cover charge or a charge for entry into the premises or for entertainment at the premises or any similar charge, the notice or notices shall specify the amount of any such price or of any such charge (whether stated as a percentage of an amount or otherwise) and the matters to which it relates and, if the said service charge is fully included in the prices specified in the notice or notices pursuant to subparagraph (b) of this paragraph, the notice or notices shall specify the fact of such inclusion.

GreeBo

somesoldiers wrote: »

I was once told it is due to the extra work of having large group meals all ready at same time. To me a table of 10would be easier than 5*2

It's much harder to get 10 meals ready at the same time.

With 2x5 you just have to get 5at two different times.

Imagine 10 steaks for example.

whomitconcerns

I have often asked for the service charge to be removed when I felt it was not deserved. It's optional... Don't pay if you don't want

L1011

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do restaurants have a service charge for 'large groups' out of curiousity (and why is it accepted as being ok)?

Most of the logic behind it is American where the waiters live off the tips, and the receipt may suggest a specific tip - higher for larger groups. Has to do with risk of them not making other tips off other tables and so on

I far prefer the way its done in places like Denmark - you just don't tip normally; nor are there service charges. Price reflects the actual cost. If you find the service very good you round up to the nearest 2kr for a normal table - so the max tip is about €1.60. They refer to it as "drinking pennies" as a waiter might get two pints worth over an evening.

Initial menu prices are higher but there is never any variance from them

L1011

L1011 wrote: »

Most of the logic behind it is American where the waiters live off the tips, and the receipt may suggest a specific tip - higher for larger groups. Has to do with risk of them not making other tips off other tables and so on

I far prefer the way its done in places like Denmark - you just don't tip normally; nor are there service charges. Price reflects the actual cost. If you find the service very good you round up to the nearest 2kr for a normal table - so the max tip is about €1.60. They refer to it as "drinking pennies" as a waiter might get two pints worth over an evening.

Initial menu prices are higher but there is never any variance from them

If I was honest, I'd suggest a lot of the tipping culture in Ireland has nothing to do with wages or cost of running a business, but instead people growing up with American TV shows.


A lot of Irish people (I won't exclude myself from that, to a degree) are mad to live in the American TV show they grew up watching. Tipping is commonly featured in such shows, and I think that's why it's become a 'thing' over here (that and the typical Irishism of trying to 'one-up' or show off to others, etc.)


Personally, i always leave a tip, as I feel obligated to, when I am in a restaurant, cafe, etc. but I despise the culture of it, as the people serving me are likely making more than I am when you include their tips

Under His Eye

Then don't tip. No one is forcing you to.

Restaurants with universal service charges, in my experience, often direct the service charge direct to the restaurant owner. The staff don't see a cent of it.

The minute I spot it I'll ask the waiter outright if staff get the money. If they do, I pay and they get their 10% where I might have given 20% if left to my own devices.

If they don't, I'll ask them what if I refuse to pay the service charge and add a tip instead. I have gotten knowing smiles and an assurance that they'll make an exception this once. I've also been told that the owner would get the tip anyway so no point, in which case I leave. I don't ask for the manager, because they're often not the owners getting the proceeds of the service charge, and I don't want to get the waiter in strife. Hard to know what to do, but I don't want to support restaurants that do it.

I'm definitely of the opinion that, in an ideal world, tipping should be an occasional thing for great service, and not an obligatory stealth tax. Pay your staff well, and let the price of my meal match what's written on the menu.

dubrov

Deleted User wrote:

Restaurants with universal service charges, in my experience, often direct the service charge direct to the restaurant owner. The staff don't see a cent of it.

Deleted User wrote:

The minute I spot it I'll ask the waiter outright if staff get the money. If they do, I pay and they get their 10% where I might have given 20% if left to my own devices.

Deleted User wrote:

Restaurants with universal service charges, in my experience, often direct the service charge direct to the restaurant owner. The staff don't see a cent of it.

Deleted User wrote:

The minute I spot it I'll ask the waiter outright if staff get the money. If they do, I pay and they get their 10% where I might have given 20% if left to my own devices.

Deleted User wrote:

If they don't, I'll ask them what if I refuse to pay the service charge and add a tip instead. I have gotten knowing smiles and an assurance that they'll make an exception this once. I've also been told that the owner would get the tip anyway so no point, in which case I leave. I don't ask for the manager, because they're often not the owners getting the proceeds of the service charge, and I don't want to get the waiter in strife. Hard to know what to do, but I don't want to support restaurants that do it.

Deleted User wrote:

I'm definitely of the opinion that, in an ideal world, tipping should be an occasional thing for great service, and not an obligatory stealth tax. Pay your staff well, and let the price of my meal match what's written on the menu.

And that is how you deal with a restaurant service charge

_Brian

It’s a real cheek to be pressured into a tip when there is a service charge already included.

Your essentially tipping twice.

kurtainsider

Let's call a blanket 10% "Service Charge" exactly what it is - good old fashioned gouging. I always understood that the 10% charge for groups was in lieu of tips. I wouldn't dream of tipping as well as paying a service charge.
If the staff find themselves working for a mean, hungry fuc*er of an owner that is really a problem for them to solve - not for the customers.

PS - Always tip in cash on the table.
1. It bypasses the owner grabbing it
2. It bypasses the revenue grabbing it (yes really)
It's more likely to find it's way to the people who actually served you.

Steve

Next time, take 15% off the bill and say it is a customer appreciation gratuity.. see how they like it.

Before you order, leave a card on the table that states this is what you always do.

If they argue that it was stated on the menu that the menu prices were not the real ones and it it was your fault for not reading it, you have an equally binding argument* that they failed to read your card...

*(probably not true but I'd love to do it for the craic)

kurtainsider

kurtainsider wrote: »

PS - Always tip in cash on the table.
1. It bypasses the owner grabbing it

It's a fair assumption, but sadly not a done deal in all cases.

Some restaurants will pool tips, so that kitchen staff can get a taste, and ensuring that somebody having an unlucky night (getting stiffed on tips) doesn't go home with no tips. Unfortunately in pooled-tip operations, I've heard reliable evidence of owners "fining" staff out of tips because guests returned dishes, taking a cut of tips for no-show tables, and other reprehensible behaviour. It was worse immediately post-bust when jobs were hard to come by, and non-nationals bore the brunt of it.

ArthurG

Why on earth would you pay a tip on top of service charge?. Was the server pressurising you with threats of violence or was it the usual Irish 'I don't want to make a scene'.

whiterebel

In Florida a good few years ago, first night - into Pizza Hut. On the bill, they kindly showed you the “suggested” tip at 15% and 18%. MacDs and Burger King didn’t expect tipping, so why should Pizza Hut? Went to a very nice restaurant on International Drive one night, and the bill came down 20% already added. I flat out refused to pay it, the waited was mortified, more so when he couldn’t remove the tip from the bill. He had to reduce the whole thing by 20%. I then gave him $20 cash because the service was good and he was a nice guy. I’ve never given the “normal” 15% in NY either and never had a problem. I wouldn’t be long telling a rude waiter here where to get off if they expected a tip. Tip for good service and good food.

mojesius

I worked in a place where there was a service charge regardless of the party size. Staff didn't see a penny. Went straight back to the owners to fund their fur coats and new range rovers. I appreciated the customers who queried where the service charge was going and even moreso, those who asked for it to be removed.

With that said, I worked in other places where the big party service charge went all to the waiter/waitress or was divided out among staff. Serving large parties is a lot more challenging than multiple small tables, so a guaranteed 'tip' from your labours is a big plus.

TL, DR : always ask where it's going!

Alkers

ArthurG wrote:

Why on earth would you pay a tip on top of service charge?. Was the server pressurising you with threats of violence or was it the usual Irish 'I don't want to make a scene'.

I didn't want to particularly and the waiter was standing over me, having already insulted my oh and I didn't want to make a scene with the two of us our for a meal.
I was already intending on complaining to the restaurant about the waiter as a separate manner but wanted to get people's opinion on the mandatory service charge also.

Under His Eye

Having insulted you, you tipped?

fritzelly

If I saw a service charge on the bill I certainly wouldn't be leaving a tip especially where the service wasn't up to scratch
Why the hell it's even tolerated in Ireland is beyond me, this isn't the US and everyone should be paid the minimum wage regardless and tips are a bonus
It's just false price advertising at the end of the day as it very rarely goes back to the serving staff (hell even the tips themselves especially when paid by card never lighten the hand of the staff).

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Can you 'legally' refuse to pay the service charge? Or is it at the discretion of the restaurant that they allow you to remove it from the bill?

I would never leave a tip in addition to a service charge. We only leave a tip where we feel the waiting staff deserved a tip.

If the service or food is not as expected, we always mention it to the restaurant manager before we leave the restaurant. The Irish love a good moan about poor service/food but they never seem to tell the people that can actually do something about it.

Edit: tipping in the US is a PITA. That fake overly nice service you get, just so they get a tip. Sometimes I'd like to scream 'oh just f**k off and have a good one yourself'

goat2

Under His Eye wrote: »

Real sneaky having a service charge and then a tip option on the payment machine.

I wonder, are they breaking the law, and do the staff get this service charge at the end at all, or part of it

goat2

Simona1986 wrote: »

I didn't want to particularly and the waiter was standing over me, having already insulted my oh and I didn't want to make a scene with the two of us our for a meal.
I was already intending on complaining to the restaurant about the waiter as a separate manner but wanted to get people's opinion on the mandatory service charge also.

I would find the owner of that restaurant, and voice my opinion on their employee, he would be a cause for them losing business, owner may not know what is going on while he not there

goat2

ArthurG wrote: »

Why on earth would you pay a tip on top of service charge?. Was the server pressurising you with threats of violence or was it the usual Irish 'I don't want to make a scene'.

I have worked in restaurants, and I don't think that this should be allowed, but I don't know the rules on pricing,
But while I did work in restaurants, if there were a service charge on menu, I would not have expected the customer to tip, that is just not right

ArthurG

Mr.S wrote: »

.....the waiter looking at you with puppy eyes and a smile.....

Except that’s not what happened according to the OP. This is a clear case of Irish ‘don’t make a scene, I’ll complain later’ mentality. The thing is you loose the upper hand by walking away and ignoring it in the moment, these things need to be dealt with immediately. Most Irish people need to get over their absurd fear of looking foolish for complaining, as the awful truth is no on gives a damn about them.

the_pen_turner

i have been googling the definition of it
'A service charge is an amount that is added to your bill in a restaurant to pay for the work of the person who comes and serves you. '

thats pure crap. surely paying the waiter and other costs associated with bringing the food to your table is part of the overheads of the business.
some places like chinesse resturants offer a take away servcie but tht is at a diferent rate than a sit down resturant

its blatant gouging . if its a genuine running cost then add it into the bill and let everyone see the actual charge at face value


you wouldnt pay a courior srvice extra to load and unload the package into the van . those costs are included in the delivery charge.





as for a tip . why would you tip anyway.

i would only tip if they went above and beyond what was expeded of them. doing their job is what they are paid for. bringing food over, taking orders, greating you and being pleasant etc is all part of the job.

Shelflife

The service charge to me is basically false advertising. Your meal is listed as €25 but you end up paying €27.50, your already overpriced bottle of wine is €30 now costs you €33. Total joke !

If I buy a €100 bottle of wine does it cost an extra €7 to bring that particular bottle to the table ?

Price up your menu to cover your costs properly!

I don’t tip unless the service is exceptional, I expect good service and good food as standard. I genuinely don’t understand why you tip a waiter for doing their job properly!

I work in a shop and I give a good service, I don’t expect a tip. My customers reward me by coming back again.

tringle

Huge arguement in a hotel restaurant a few years ago. Was a family birthday and 12 of us staying so 6 rooms. . We got a special room and dinner rate and had booked table for dinner. After the meal we got presented with a bill, we knew we had drinks but never occured to us that it would have service charge to and on cost of all food and drink. And it was a lot more than 10%.Well there was uproar, no one said when we booked a table of 12 it would have service charge. No one said meal included in room rate didnt include service. And to make it easy we had actually prebooked the menu so never saw a menu with prices or details of service.

whomitconcerns

Dario Small Mail wrote: »

Can you 'legally' refuse to pay the service charge? Or is it at the discretion of the restaurant that they allow you to remove it from the bill?

I would never leave a tip in addition to a service charge. We only leave a tip where we feel the waiting staff deserved a tip.

If the service or food is not as expected, we always mention it to the restaurant manager before we leave the restaurant. The Irish love a good moan about poor service/food but they never seem to tell the people that can actually do something about it.

Edit: tipping in the US is a PITA. That fake overly nice service you get, just so they get a tip. Sometimes I'd like to scream 'oh just f**k off and have a good one yourself'

It's generally an 'optional' service charge. In which case remove away!

Toots

ArthurG wrote: »

Why on earth would you pay a tip on top of service charge?. Was the server pressurising you with threats of violence or was it the usual Irish 'I don't want to make a scene'.

My local Cafe Mao used to always do this. First time it happened, I’d seen that there was a service charge on the menu, but my husband didn’t see it, and he paid the bill. When I asked him why he gave a tip, he hadn’t realised that service was included, and the waiter had handed him the pin pad on the gratuity screen.

Second time, I got the pin pad, again handed over on the gratuity screen, opted not to pay the gratuity, only to have the waiter then ask was everything not ok with the meal. I told him that everything was fine, but that since service was already being charged, I wasn’t going to be adding a tip on top of it, and it was a bit cheeky to be expecting one. Made sure to say it loud enough so the surrounding tables could hear and hopefully save someone else from being either tricked or pressured into tipping on top of the service charge.

goat2

whomitconcerns wrote: »

It's generally an 'optional' service charge. In which case remove away!

I have not seen Optional printed next to service charge on any munu

whomitconcerns

goat2 wrote: »

I have not seen Optional printed next to service charge on any munu

Well attached is a link to the ivy's menu. Look to the bottom right.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://theivydublin.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/04/1.3_TIMG_-AllDay_autumn_2017_07.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjR-OG4_frfAhXHUBUIHd8hCvYQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2evwZI22tgx5VxQCTJpJYk

awec

The American-esque tipping culture is creeping in here more and more and it really needs to go away.

goat2

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Well attached is a link to the ivy's menu. Look to the bottom right.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://theivydublin.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/04/1.3_TIMG_-AllDay_autumn_2017_07.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjR-OG4_frfAhXHUBUIHd8hCvYQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2evwZI22tgx5VxQCTJpJYk

Then it is either that or leaving on table, that is if food and service is good, if not, then nothing

slave1

For me it's simple, plenty of restaurant choices out there and a service charge is a joke for a small number, I'd just get up and leave.

c6ysaphjvqw41k

Normally I will round the bill up, so if its €47 I would just leave €50. I don't go out of my way to tip, unless the service is amazing or we have a huge party and it was a lot of work for them. If somewhere has a service charge I never have asked for it to be removed, I'll just pay it and that will be that. Never heard something as ridiculous as what the OP described though. Normally I've just seen a straight 10% extra added on.

My husband is from the NY area of the US and the norm for most places is 18-20%. We both think this is ridiculous when they are just doing their job and most of the time annoy us, just leave me alone to eat my food stop coming over to me. Really think they should just be paid properly to begin with, why should I have to pay the workers on top of my food. We went out for food once with his sister and the service was fine so we left 15%. His sister added on to it saying we HAD to give 20%.

We went out for dinner with his mother a few months ago and the service and the food was actually terrible. It was cold, all arrived separately, tasted bad, they forgot stuff etc. Never got knives/forks etc. We both said we wouldn't tip because the service was terrible. His mother still wanted to give 20%. We eventually talked her down to 15% which I still think was ridiculous.

We had a family meal that same trip for 40 of us which cost my in laws $1200. There was 6 people serving us and she gave them $50 each of a tip, so it was an extra $300 dollars. I couldn't get over that. If that was in Ireland my dad probably would have given an extra €100-€150 between them all and I would think that was being generous.

Rochelle

I'm curious why anyone tips at all in Ireland?

The staff are (presumably) on a minimum wage, the same as the checkout person in the supermarket or the clothes shop assistant, you'd never dream of tipping them?

The argument that the waiter has been attending to you for a couple of hours v the checkout operator for just minutes doesn't stack up as each gets paid accordingly per the amount of time attending you, if you see what I mean.

I live in a country where the poor feckers get paid appalling badly, with no minimum wage so I will always tip (not that I eat out much), but I can't fathom the logic in Ireland.

goat2

Rochelle wrote: »

I'm curious why anyone tips at all in Ireland?

The staff are (presumably) on a minimum wage, the same as the checkout person in the supermarket or the clothes shop assistant, you'd never dream of tipping them?

The argument that the waiter has been attending to you for a couple of hours v the checkout operator for just minutes doesn't stack up as each gets paid accordingly per the amount of time attending you, if you see what I mean.

I live in a country where the poor feckers get paid appalling badly, with no minimum wage so I will always tip (not that I eat out much), but I can't fathom the logic in Ireland.

I have worked in restaurants, and always with the understanding, that tips are not essential to be given, we are supposed to be employed by the company restaurant, and be paid by the restaurant owner for work done, not depending on good will, it is a job not a good will centre