Legalities of accessing your own roof

seannash

Hi,
As a homeowner what is the legal situation around accessing your own roof.

I have an extension with a flat roof which I can access for maintenance if I want. Our architect had originally advised that we can't have a roof garden on the extension which is fair enough but I'm wondering how much time you are allowed to spend up there.
For example could I sunbathe up there on a warm day (not that I sunbathe but you get the idea)

cnocbui

I would say the architect would be referring to planning permission not allowing a roof garden, you can do anything on your roof you want so long as it doesn't require planning permission and is legal. Sunbathing would fit both criteria.

seannash

cnocbui wrote: »

I would say the architect would be referring to planning permission not allowing a roof garden, you can do anything on your roof you want so long as it doesn't require planning permission and is legal. Sunbathing would fit both criteria.

Thanks for the reply,
I figured that was the correct answer but wasn't sure. I'm kinda curious as to what would prohibit a unofficial roof garden then.
I've no plans to do this but bar the height restrictions in the necessary safety fencing what would stop me from using it regularly on sunny days

cnocbui

The only thing that would get in the way of an unofficial roof garden would be someone complaining. Personally I would be far more worried about high winds dislodging things and the weight loading of the roof - if it was too heavy to blow away.

Stanford

You cannot construct anything on your roof which would have the effect of increasing the height of the house and/or compromising the structural integrity of the roof or create a precedent for adjacent flat roofed dwellings

seannash

Stanford wrote: »

You cannot construct anything on your roof which would have the effect of increasing the height of the house and/or compromising the structural integrity of the roof or create a precedent for adjacent flat roofed dwellings

Thanks for that,
The extension was built to take the weight of people on the roof as I have several skylights on the extension which I would need to clean.
In terms of increasing the height, the extension of about 7 foot below the top of the roof of the main house and currently it's the only extension on any of the surrounding houses.

Would all of the above qualify me to be exempt

seannash

cnocbui wrote: »

The only thing that would get in the way of an unofficial roof garden would be someone complaining. Personally I would be far more worried about high winds dislodging things and the weight loading of the roof - if it was too heavy to blow away.

Yep this is something that also worried me and as a result would be the main reason I wouldn't be treating it as a permanent unofficial roof garden and more of a place where I could sit out on a rug if the weather was favourable

mickdw

In my opinion, you do not have planning to be up there other than for maintenance. One obvious issue I can see is overlooking which would surely be a major concern to neighbours.

seannash

mickdw wrote: »

In my opinion, you do not have planning to be up there other than for maintenance. One obvious issue I can see is overlooking which would surely be a major concern to neighbours.

I understand, and yes that's correct. I guess I was just asking in case of a good spell of weather is all.
In terms of overlooking I'm in a unique situation where by my extension is two stories (ground floor is a kitchen, top floor of extension is a bedroom) all of my neighbours who have extensions only have single story extensions. I'm the last house on a terrace and with a road separating me from the next section of houses.
I can certainly see down into my neighbours "garden" but it's dominated by an extension so there's no garden To speak of

seannash

By the way I totally get that I'm pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable use but I'm kind of just asking to see if being on the roof a few times a year is an option. I have no back garden so the chance to lie out in the evening in some good weather is basically zero except for this.
Poor me right 😂

Doop

seannash wrote: »

Thanks for that,
In terms of increasing the height, the extension of about 7 foot below the top of the roof of the main house and currently it's the only extension on any of the surrounding houses.

Thats not really the point... the point is you had planning permission to build an extension to 'x' height. Going above that would be contrary to the planning permission granted.

That said ... have at it I reckon we only get a handful of good days a year! however a double storey extension without a parapet sounds unsafe for having a glass of wine!

Just do what you want but I wouldn’t leave anything up there permanently for the sole reason of wind etc. The absolute worst that’s going to happen is someone busybody neighbor will complain to you. I wouldn’t even be thinking twice about going up there never mind asking about it.

murphaph

Aniya Nice Varnish wrote: »

Just do what you want but I wouldn’t leave anything up there permanently for the sole reason of wind etc. The absolute worst that’s going to happen is someone busybody neighbor will complain to you. I wouldn’t even be thinking twice about going up there never mind asking about it.

That's not the worst thing that can happen. The worst thing that can happen is the OP falls off the 2 storey extension when rolling over for the sun cream.

abcabc123123

If, as it sounds like, you live in a terrace of old workers' cottages, I wouldn't worry about it. Several of my neighbours have built permanent roof terraces on their extensions and I plan on doing the same evenually. It's highly unlikely anyone will complain as your neighbours will want to be able to go up on their roof themselves.

It'd be different if you're in a leafy suburb and can peer down on your neighbour while she's sunbathing, but in an urban cottage nobody uses their yard for anything much beyond bin storage. I doubt the council would care much either.

incentsitive

Once you are not sitting up their in your speedo's or letting it all hang out, I wouldn't complain on a fine day!

Grumpypants

Is the extension to the side or back of the house? If you can see it from the road any change could fall foul of planning but at the back here no one can see it would be fine.

But if all you do is hop up once or twice a year to lay down then I can't see any issue.

If you want to put anything of significant weight or that could pond water it might affect the actual structure.

conorhal

seannash wrote: »

By the way I totally get that I'm pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable use but I'm kind of just asking to see if being on the roof a few times a year is an option. I have no back garden so the chance to lie out in the evening in some good weather is basically zero except for this.
Poor me right ��

Well if what you're asking is how far can a skirt legallity then the answer to that is how likely are you to piss off your neighbours by doing so and how likely are they to complain.
Does your flat roof overlook other's properties that might object?

seannash

Thanks everyone for the replies.
Safety is definitely a concern even though it would only be the two of us up there but you never know how long I'll be here or if kids arrive sooner than expected.

I hypothesized a fold down gate that surrounds the edge which I could fold down and secure when not in use. I'd ideally like to put glass around it like you see on more contemporary roof gardens but I don't think I could argue that its there for safety during maintenance (Although that is what it is for regardless of what I'm doing up there)


In terms of neighbors I think I'll be safe in that regard. The property next door is rented on a very long term lease so I don't think my neighbors would complain as no objection was made to the height of the extension (Which shocked us)


Its town center so exactly as someone described although its a Georgian house over 3 levels (Tiny though) The extension is only 9ft wide by 16 ft long so we wont be having any wild parties up there.

cnocbui

You can always just do it and see what happens.

I can't help being amused by those who think frequent use of such a space for sunbathing or sitting on portable chairs is going to get a cease and desist from a council.

rgodard80a

I'd be more worried that flat roofs aren't designed to be walked on, especially if it's a torch-on felt roof.

Much more likely that the leg of a chair would poke a hole through the felt and you then have leaks.

Carlos Orange

cnocbui wrote: »

I can't help being amused by those who think frequent use of such a space for sunbathing or sitting on portable chairs is going to get a cease and desist from a council.

Maybe I'm reading too much into the title but asking if something is legal is very different from asking will you get away with it.

El Tarangu

I don't know if you ever envisage selling it, but if you were to stick up some of rail that was not strictly within the planning regulations, you could be creating difficulties for yourself if you ever wanted to sell it down the road.

(though you could always take down the railing before putting it on the market).

Spook_ie

Dublin City Council say no you can't.

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/frequently-asked-questions-planning#Can%20I%20build%20a%20balcony%20/%20roof%20garden%20on%20my%20extension%20without%20permission?

Can I build a balcony / roof garden on my extension without permission?
No - specifically excluded from exemption by Part 1, Schedule 2, Column 2, Condition 7.

(Page 156).

Can't find the document they are referencing though

EDIT found it

7. The roof of any extension shall not be
used as a balcony or roof garden.

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/legislations/planning_and_development_regulations_2001_-_2018unofficial_consolidation_annotated.pdf

Page 334

abcabc123123

Spook_ie wrote: »

Dublin City Council say no you can't.

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/frequently-asked-questions-planning#Can%20I%20build%20a%20balcony%20/%20roof%20garden%20on%20my%20extension%20without%20permission?



Can't find the document they are referencing though

EDIT found it



https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/legislations/planning_and_development_regulations_2001_-_2018unofficial_consolidation_annotated.pdf

Page 334

The regs say that, doesn't mean they're applied.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/stoneybatter-stunner-50sq-m-of-smart-homely-space-for-345k-1.3249883

Contra regs roof terrace on display in a national newspaper, still sold for 100k over asking.

Ray Palmer

abcabc123123 wrote: »

Spook_ie wrote: »

Dublin City Council say no you can't.

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/frequently-asked-questions-planning#Can%20I%20build%20a%20balcony%20/%20roof%20garden%20on%20my%20extension%20without%20permission?



Can't find the document they are referencing though

EDIT found it



https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/legislations/planning_and_development_regulations_2001_-_2018unofficial_consolidation_annotated.pdf

Page 334

The regs say that, doesn't mean they're applied.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/stoneybatter-stunner-50sq-m-of-smart-homely-space-for-345k-1.3249883

Contra regs roof terrace on display in a national newspaper, still sold for 100k over asking.

They could have planning for that. It isn't against the rules to have a roof garden you just need to have planning which you can get.
The regulations allow for it. The cover what strength the roof needs to be to be used in such a way. Just because a roof feels safe and can hold a person or people doesn't mean it is safe as a roof garden. Adding plants and furniture may cause it to be unsafe

Ray Palmer

abcabc123123 wrote: »

Spook_ie wrote: »

Dublin City Council say no you can't.

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/frequently-asked-questions-planning#Can%20I%20build%20a%20balcony%20/%20roof%20garden%20on%20my%20extension%20without%20permission?



Can't find the document they are referencing though

EDIT found it



https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/legislations/planning_and_development_regulations_2001_-_2018unofficial_consolidation_annotated.pdf

Page 334

The regs say that, doesn't mean they're applied.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/stoneybatter-stunner-50sq-m-of-smart-homely-space-for-345k-1.3249883

Contra regs roof terrace on display in a national newspaper, still sold for 100k over asking.

They could have planning for that. It isn't against the rules to have a roof garden you just need to have planning which you can get.
The regulations allow for it. The cover what strength the roof needs to be to be used in such a way. Just because a roof feels safe and can hold a person or people doesn't mean it is safe as a roof garden. Adding plants and furniture may cause it to be unsafe

jester77

seannash wrote: »

For example could I sunbathe up there on a warm day (not that I sunbathe but you get the idea)

I highly doubt being 3 meters closer to the sun will make much of a difference :pac:

seannash

jester77 wrote: »

I highly doubt being 3 meters closer to the sun will make much of a difference :pac:

Hahaha Its more that I have zero outside space so this is my only option

seannash

Thanks again,
I guess the consensus is, its not legal to advertise it as a roof garden unless planning is obtained however occasional use is okay as long as no one complains of overlooking or me being up there.


In terms of erecting a glass safety fence, Id have to take it down if I was selling with no planning for the roof garden. It may also draw attention to it and as a result complaints might be made.


The weight issue, I'm not too worried about as it was spec'd for taking people up there as even though we knew we wouldn't get planning for a roof garden we knew we would probably go up there on good evenings just to look out over the town.


I think that's most angles covered

cnocbui

jester77 wrote: »

I highly doubt being 3 meters closer to the sun will make much of a difference :pac:

The micro climate caused by the roof heating the air near it is likely to deliver a considerably different experience than close proximity to cold ground.

Ray Palmer

seannash wrote: »

Thanks again,
I guess the consensus is, its not legal to advertise it as a roof garden unless planning is obtained however occasional use is okay as long as no one complains of overlooking or me being up there.


In terms of erecting a glass safety fence, Id have to take it down if I was selling with no planning for the roof garden. It may also draw attention to it and as a result complaints might be made.


The weight issue, I'm not too worried about as it was spec'd for taking people up there as even though we knew we wouldn't get planning for a roof garden we knew we would probably go up there on good evenings just to look out over the town.


I think that's most angles covered

You can't put up a fence without planning permission. The roof has not been speced for people because of access. A roof will by its nature be strong enough to carry people. The walls may not be strong enough for a fence either.
You are taking up information incorrectly. Planning is not just about selling.
Why don't you just apply for planning? You should have the drawings from the extension so easy to do.

seannash

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You can't put up a fence without planning permission.

Yep I understand this, However I can put it up, nothing can stop me doing it however the council can tell me to take it down due to not having planning permission



[/QUOTE] The roof has not been speced for people because of access. A roof will by its nature be strong enough to carry people. The walls may not be strong enough for a fence either. [/QUOTE]


I worked with my architect and structural engineer to design it to take the weight as if it were a roof garden. I told them I will be up there and they designed it as such


[/QUOTE]
You are taking up information incorrectly. Planning is not just about selling.
Why don't you just apply for planning? You should have the drawings from the extension so easy to do.[/QUOTE]


The main house is a protected structure, applying for any change requires extensive plans to be drawn up, a conservation architect must do a report even if the main part of he building isn't being touched.
Its quite costly to do, I cannot resubmit my prior reports, I can resubmit my drawings I believe. This is my understanding as I called the planners about something else related tot he extension during the build and this was the response I got.
Apologies for the ****e multiquoting

Ray Palmer

I wouldn't for a second believe an architect or builder did without documentation.
Not true about the protected structure if you are talking about the extension you won't need the protected structure part. You will be applying for change of use.
You can of course do what you like but don't dismiss planning enforcement as a light thing. If you fall off the roof your insurance won't be valid. If it is a guest in your house it gets much worse. They fine as well as make you take it down.

Your choice but I doubt your neighbours will ignore it. I have and will report any planning violations that effect my property or area. I have a similar issue with a flat roof but won't do a thing without planning and proper independent inspection

MrMusician18

seannash wrote: »

Thanks again,
I guess the consensus is, its not legal to advertise it as a roof garden unless planning is obtained however occasional use is okay as long as no one complains of overlooking or me being up there.


In terms of erecting a glass safety fence, Id have to take it down if I was selling with no planning for the roof garden. It may also draw attention to it and as a result complaints might be made.


The weight issue, I'm not too worried about as it was spec'd for taking people up there as even though we knew we wouldn't get planning for a roof garden we knew we would probably go up there on good evenings just to look out over the town.


I think that's most angles covered

Unless you specifically told the engineer that you wanted to use it as a balcony it's unlikely to designed for a strength beyond maintenance load, which is not nearly enough for balcony use.

You are also likely to crack plasterboard ceilings under.

seannash

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I wouldn't for a second believe an architect or builder did without documentation.

I'm not sure why you don't believe this,they overspecced it. I said if this was a roof garden what would I need to do, they put that in the plan details and the builder built that.

I'll recheck about the planning, perhaps a change of use is a different topic but when I went to change the position of a window from one wall to another wall my local planner said I would need to submit everything again. I'll revisit it though

I have been out on the roof before, I guess I'd just like to make it safer with the glass fence. I may revisit my initial idea of a fold down surround. Surely repairs are allowed and if so surely safety precautions to do those repairs are allowed. I guess that's where I'm coming from in regards how to circumvent applying for (what I thought) was costly planning permission for the few days I'd be on it

seannash

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Unless you specifically told the engineer that you wanted to use it as a balcony it's unlikely to designed for a strength beyond maintenance load, which is not nearly enough for balcony use.

You are also likely to crack plasterboard ceilings under.

Not a balcony but yes I told him I'd be accessing it and spec it as a roof garden. The access is though a regular staircase (think of a stira I guess but nicer) situated in the new extension. I don't enter from the main building onto the roof of that makes sense

Ray Palmer

I would stop looking for loopholes and just do It properly. Planners aren't stupid and if a neighbours says you are using it as space not for maintenance they aren't going to buy what you are saying.
Insurance is an issue for the whole house if you do this.

Carlos Orange

Since it is designed, spected and built to be a roof garden I would have thought that would make any eventual planning issues (should they happen) more serious since it is premeditated and deliberate planning violations.

seannash

psinno wrote: »

Since it is designed, spected and built to be a roof garden I would have thought that would make any eventual planning issues (should they happen) more serious since it is premeditated and deliberate planning violations.

It's not as sinister as you make it out to be. We knew we were going to be going up there so we made sure it could safely take our weight.
We won't be having big parties up there.

seannash

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I would stop looking for loopholes and just do It properly. Planners aren't stupid and if a neighbours says you are using it as space not for maintenance they aren't going to buy what you are saying.
Insurance is an issue for the whole house if you do this.

I understand your point on this and it's given me some things to consider but if the weather is nice tomorrow I'll be going up there.
I may well pursue planning permission for it in the long run