3 months waiting for a large cheque to clear

gagomes

Long story short, I lodged a cheque of several grand after selling some stock in Morgan Stanley. It's been 3 months and the funds haven't made it's way into my account.



UlsterBank claim they don't have the funds or can't find them and CITI in Germany (bank used by Morgan Stanley) claim the check has been paid.

The two banks don't appear to be able to communicate directly.



I've been making calls to Morgan and Ulster on a daily basis for the last month with no progress, just a lot of time wasting, information that doesn't carry over or isn't recorded correctly, people who don't understand the issues involved, etc.

Is there anything else besides raising an issue with central bank that can assist me legally?

twowheelsonly

Financial Services Ombudsman ??

They're part of a wider European network (Finnet??) so may be able to get strings pulled on both sides.

Under His Eye

Formal written complaint to Ulster Bank, ask for a final response. They won't be long sorting the problem.

If you get no resolution you can then go to the Financial Services Ombudsman.

gagomes

Formal written complaint to Ulster Bank, ask for a final response. They won't be long sorting the problem.

What does this mean exactly? if I ask for the final response, wouldn't it mean they would be giving me a "I don't know where funds are" response and cease any further attempts at finding a solution to the issue?

Time

gagomes wrote: »

What does this mean exactly? if I ask for the final response, wouldn't it mean they would be giving me a "I don't know where funds are" response and cease any further attempts at finding a solution to the issue?

Even if they did do that, the minute the ombudsman is onto them they'll pay up. The ombudsman would probably order them to anyway irrespective of whether they can find the money or not as its their responsibility.

In saying that UB complaints team are fairly good. Have you lodged a formal complaint?

Peregrinus

No. "Final response" means you have exhausted the bank's dispute resolution procedures, so you can them move on to the banking ombudsman. Your complaint is that Ulster Bank have either lost the cheque which you gave them to present or they have lost the funds which they obtained when presenting it.

Forget the daily phone calls. Write a letter to Ulster Bank, keep a copy, send it by registered post. Demand either the crediting of the funds to your account or the immediate return of the cheque. Given them 7 days. You will get rapid action.

Gimme A Pound

A complaint to Ulster Bank implies that they actually do know where the funds are and will just release them because of this complaint. Have the company's bank said the cheque was actually debited from its account or just sent on? If not debited, could you request that the company cancel the cheque which was issued, and issue a replacement?

gagomes

Time wrote: »

Even if they did do that, the minute the ombudsman is onto them they'll pay up. The ombudsman would probably order them to anyway irrespective of whether they can find the money or not as its their responsibility.

In saying that UB complaints team are fairly good. Have you lodged a formal complaint?

They have been good on other occasions, but have been mostly useless in this situation. Started speaking to them one exact month after lodging the cheque. Although they are seemingly helpful, it sounds as though as there are major issues going on with UlsterBank at large.

Forget the daily phone calls. Write a letter to Ulster Bank, keep a copy, send it by registered post. Demand either the crediting of the funds to your account or the immediate return of the cheque. Given them 7 days. You will get rapid action.

I don't follow the part of requesting the cheque. They've sent the cheque to CITI in Germany, who claims has released/paid the funds to Ulster and could therefore no longer cancel it. So if I request the cheque, even if ulster can send the copy back to me, that isn't going to change the fact CITI isnt going to send the funds again, right?

lawred2

Do you have evidence that cheque was lodged?

gagomes

Alena Clumsy Seat wrote: »

A complaint to Ulster Bank implies that they actually do know where the funds are and will just release them because of this complaint. Have the company's bank said the cheque was actually debited from its account or just sent on? If not debited, could you request that the company cancel the cheque which was issued, and issue a replacement?

I requested Morgan Stanley to cancel the cheque and wire the funds digitally. I received a call 3 days later stating CITI Bank could not cancel the cheque as the funds had already been passed onto Ulster. Exact interpretation unclear

gagomes

lawred2 wrote: »

Do you have evidence that cheque was lodged?

I came out of the branch without any evidence, but since then I have emails from the bank, I have the copy of the cheque in digital format received from Ulster, also a copy of the cheque issued by CITI as received by Morgan Stanley, etc.

Mr. Incognito

Go to a solicitor

A formal letter setting out that you will be applying interest and setting out that you will be claiming damages if not cleared within 7 days will move matters along.

Gimme A Pound

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Go to a solicitor

A formal letter setting out that you will be applying interest and setting out that you will be claiming damages if not cleared within 7 days will move matters along.

On the basis of course that Ulster Bank do have the funds and are just stalling for the craic.

amcalester

Any other unusual transactions on your account of late?

I wonder if you are being investigated under a Suspicious Activity Report, might explain the stalling and lack of communication.

Under His Eye

Are you in the formal complaints process or just dealing with branch/CS staff?

Once you escalate to a formal complaint they must answer within specified time frames.

Tomw86

I would ask MS/CITI to where the funds were transferred. Even with a Cheque payment they should have a SWIFT identifier they can give you.

The money is somewhere within UB by the sounds of things, I am astounded they have messed you about...but not surprised.

gagomes

Tomw86 wrote: »

I would ask MS/CITI to where the funds were transferred. Even with a Cheque payment they should have a SWIFT identifier they can give you.

The money is somewhere within UB by the sounds of things, I am astounded they have messed you about...but not surprised.

That's where it gets complicated. As I understand it, when I left the cheque with UB they posted the cheque to CITI on collection. CITI is supposed to have sent the funds to an account that isn't my own, but some intermediate account belonging to Ulster. This is the point where I'm confused because I don't know if UB has sent along with the cheque the identifier of such an account or if there is some convention / set of accounts, to which CITI would have sent the funds to. The complicated part is that, speaking to Morgan, they cannot get information on which account the funds were sent to because the account they sent it to was not provided by Morgan, but by UB's request.

What UB complaints department (aka "customer Experience & Service, CE&P Ulster Bank") has been telling me is that I need to request morgan stanley to put a a trace on the cheque. This would give CITI a maximum of 5 business days to speak to ulster to find the funds, at which point they would seize the opportunity to figure where the funds had been sent to. However, it seems as though as this is not fully understood by Morgan Stanley. Giving them a call tonight again.


Do I stand in any position to request compensation on this?

gagomes

amcalester wrote: »

Any other unusual transactions on your account of late?

I wonder if you are being investigated under a Suspicious Activity Report, might explain the stalling and lack of communication.

Not that I have noticed, but I did sell another lot of stock and that one was wired digitally and landed on my account 5 days later.

EdgeCase

You need to make a formal complaint to the branch manager.

The machinations of their internal systems aren’t relevant. Funds we’re lodged and haven’t appeared at the other end.

If they don’t resolve it you need to make a complaint to the Central Bank.

It’s a regulated Irish bank and the transaction system is subject to regulations.

http://www.centralbank.ie/contact-us/make-a-complaint

If you deposited it to Ulster Bank, what happened in Germany is their problem, not yours.

This sounds like a systems systems screw up at Ulster Bank.

CITI won’t talk to you because you’re not their customer.

If I have this right:

You handed a cheque to Ulster Bank, it’s been cleared according to the company who wrote it, but no money has appeared in your account.

In that case it’s ENTIRELY up to Ulster Bank to resolve and your line of complaint is to the Central Bank as it’s a transaction system failure that’s not being resolved.

I would send a very formal, registered letter to the branch manager explaining that they have 7 days to resolve this or you will be seeking legal advice.

It’s likely that the transaction has somehow not been picked up on some internal system eg funds were sent to Ulster Bank without any details of who those funds belonged to or something weird like that. Or they’ve gone to the wrong holding account or something.

In either case, that’s irrelevant to you. You just want your money. Their internal systems are their problem.

It shouldn’t be that hard to find as it’s a specific amount from a specific bank in a particular date range.

GM228

EdgeCase wrote: »

In that case it’s ENTIRELY up to Ulster Bank to resolve and your line of complaint is to the Central Bank as it’s a transaction system failure that’s not being resolved.

The line of complaint (after a formal complaint to UB) is via the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman, the CB does not investigate individual complaints, although on occasion they may investigate serious or systemic general complaints.

Under His Eye

It is not the branch manager you need to complain to it is their complaints dept in Dublin and not any other dept.

https://www.ulsterbank.com/microsites/CompForm/complaints_form.asp

Fill that in and the clock starts ticking on a resolution. I have had great success using this method to resolve problems that branch/phone jockeys could never give a proper solution.

Gimme A Pound

Barstool law central in here.

EdgeCase

It also actually doesn’t fall under SEPA regulations as it’s a paper based transaction. They are assumed to be a dying payment method, although I think they're going to be around a long while yet.

It's amazing how many companies either don't realise or don't care that there's no Eurozone cheque system, even though there's a single currency and an integrated payments system. So paper transactions end up going via a very cumbersome and often problematic route. In some cases banks will flatly refuse foreign cheques too.

I've had two non Irish cheques sent to me and it's an extremely annoying waste of time.

EdgeCase

I would actually raise it directly with your branch manager. They're usually very capable of tracking something like this down.

I'm surprised it's gone on this long. They're usually fairly good at resolving errors.

Marcusm

gagomes wrote: »

That's where it gets complicated. As I understand it, when I left the cheque with UB they posted the cheque to CITI on collection. CITI is supposed to have sent the funds to an account that isn't my own, but some intermediate account belonging to Ulster. This is the point where I'm confused because I don't know if UB has sent along with the cheque the identifier of such an account or if there is some convention / set of accounts, to which CITI would have sent the funds to. The complicated part is that, speaking to Morgan, they cannot get information on which account the funds were sent to because the account they sent it to was not provided by Morgan, but by UB's request.

What UB complaints department (aka "customer Experience & Service, CE&P Ulster Bank") has been telling me is that I need to request morgan stanley to put a a trace on the cheque. This would give CITI a maximum of 5 business days to speak to ulster to find the funds, at which point they would seize the opportunity to figure where the funds had been sent to. However, it seems as though as this is not fully understood by Morgan Stanley. Giving them a call tonight again.


Do I stand in any position to request compensation on this?

Ulster Bank accepted the cheque and agreed to arrange clearance on your behal; they bear a duty of care to you. There is no need for you to engage with either amorgan Stanley or Citi, that’s UB’s responsibility as a result if their accepting the cheque from you. If they are unable to secure payment then they must return it to you. Based on what you have been told, Ulster has been paid the funds to their (likely USD) Nostro. You need to write to them insisting on a written explanation within a reasonable time (no less than 7 days). These are client funds; while the Ombudsman is the point of call for complaints, a failure to have appropriate systems to manage and deliver client funds is ultimately a matter for the Central Bank.

gagomes

Thanks for the great support and ideas received from many of you here in this forum! Although I agree that that I should've only dealt with UB all along, the truth is that they are a useless bunch and it feels like taking blood off a stone as can be seen here on my tweet https://twitter.com/0x4747/status/1070688776068972545 (thread) - where they'll outright lie to you and make rules they don't document anywhere to suit their interests.

In the mean time, I have received the following update from our stock admin who I got to help drive pressure into this issue from the MS side.

Morgan Stanley has responded saying that as of yesterday afternoon, your case has been escalated to the highest possible level for CITI bank, but they unfortunately do not have any additional information at this time. Our MS contact has spoken with the CITI manager that is helping with this case but has got a response that they are working within the privacy guidelines presented to them, but they are pushing as much as they can

and an hour later

there has been an update. Our MS contacts have told me that CITI bank has confirmed that there was an issue with the delivery of your funds. Morgan Stanley is confirming the timing, but they believe that you should have your funds in your account within 48 hours. Again they are confirming if that is 48 business hours or not.
They say that worst case scenario, you should have your funds in your account by next Tuesday
I will keep you updated with any changes or confirmations as I receive them

so looks like I'll not need to take further action to retrieve the funds... and for what it's worth, today marks exactly 3 months since I walked into the UB branch in camden to lodge that cheque. What a nightmare!

I guess I would be wondering what would be my options with regards to seeking compensation for the sheer effort involved in trying to obtain payment, even if I will never get a fair compensation?

gagomes

EdgeCase wrote: »

I would actually raise it directly with your branch manager. They're usually very capable of tracking something like this down.

I'm surprised it's gone on this long. They're usually fairly good at resolving errors.

I'll be honest here. Judging from my experience dealing with this both the customer advisor who accepted my cheque and the branch manager with whom I had a less than pleasing conversation on the 5th of December at the branch, I really don't think I'd ever see a resolution. I am reading and judging too much, but their sheer lack of interest or empathy felt gruesome. I even recorded the conversation for in case I needed to use it in the future and in that conversation there were cross-wires about another customer's similar problem with a canadian bank (not just an example, mind you.)

Tomw86

gagomes wrote: »

Thanks for the great support and ideas received from many of you here in this forum! Although I agree that that I should've only dealt with UB all along, the truth is that they are a useless bunch and it feels like taking blood off a stone as can be seen here on my tweet https://twitter.com/0x4747/status/1070688776068972545 (thread) - where they'll outright lie to you and make rules they don't document anywhere to suit their interests.

In the mean time, I have received the following update from our stock admin who I got to help drive pressure into this issue from the MS side.



and an hour later



so looks like I'll not need to take further action to retrieve the funds... and for what it's worth, today marks exactly 3 months since I walked into the UB branch in camden to lodge that cheque. What a nightmare!

I guess I would be wondering what would be my options with regards to seeking compensation for the sheer effort involved in trying to obtain payment, even if I will never get a fair compensation?

So it seems like it may not have been a UB problem! I hope you get this resolved, let us know though.

seagull

So the issue is actually at CITI rather than Ulster. I'd say you're justified in looking for 3 months interest from them.