Got fined by customs for VRT but I'm not resident

marsbar1

Seasons greetings. I've just been stopped my foriegn registered car siezed by customs to release - €200. I'm only here on holiday doing up a derelict house, and am not working. Customs guy didn't believe me and was going to leave me stranded without the car and I don't know the law here so I stopped arguing and just paid him the money he was clearly out to get. I have to import the car and pay VRT, total will be 4 times what the car is worth to a dealer, so not worth it--- or to remove the car permanently from Ireland within 30 days

What is the law on this? I thought you only had to import the car if you were a working resident in Ireland? Or is it any stay over 30 days regardless of if you are working or not?

What happens if I keep driving it and they stop me again on my next trip over here ?

mickdw

If you are living and working in UK and are insured In UK, you should have been ok on the UK plate.
I'd get in touch with revenue if you think you have been unfairly treated.
One way or another, you need to sort it so that you can drive a foreign car here in future.

colm_mcm

How long have you been here on holidays?

marsbar1

About 45 days. I have found some info on vrt.ie. You can have a car temporarily in the state for up to 12 months if you are not resident, and they talk about the 185 day rule. I meet the 185 day rule to be non Irish resident easily.
It seems you can appeal things like the amount of VRT due and the valuation but not the seizure.

"It should be noted that matters involving criminal proceedings or the seizure of a vehicle may not be appealed as there are separate remedies for such under the legislation." http://www.vrt.ie/vrtDetail.php?page=6

With no further info on the remedies!

Of course my arguement is that I'm not liable for VRT in the first place and I'm not going to stick Irish plates on it when there is no need for it. It would cause me problems at home!

colm_c

It's up to you to prove it otherwise everyone would claim the same.

You should be able to appeal it, provide documentation - bills, license, mortgage, rent, car insurance, tax etc.

ba_barabus

Are you being paid to do up the house?

corks finest

marsbar1 wrote: »

About 45 days. I have found some info on vrt.ie. You can have a car temporarily in the state for up to 12 months if you are not resident, and they talk about the 185 day rule. I meet the 185 day rule to be non Irish resident easily.
It seems you can appeal things like the amount of VRT due and the valuation but not the seizure.

"It should be noted that matters involving criminal proceedings or the seizure of a vehicle may not be appealed as there are separate remedies for such under the legislation." http://www.vrt.ie/vrtDetail.php?page=6

With no further info on the remedies!

Of course my arguement is that I'm not liable for VRT in the first place and I'm not going to stick Irish plates on it when there is no need for it. It would cause me problems at home!

FFS 45 days,I'd say you're taking the pi's*

corks finest

marsbar1 wrote: »

About 45 days. I have found some info on vrt.ie. You can have a car temporarily in the state for up to 12 months if you are not resident, and they talk about the 185 day rule. I meet the 185 day rule to be non Irish resident easily.
It seems you can appeal things like the amount of VRT due and the valuation but not the seizure.

"It should be noted that matters involving criminal proceedings or the seizure of a vehicle may not be appealed as there are separate remedies for such under the legislation." http://www.vrt.ie/vrtDetail.php?page=6

With no further info on the remedies!

Of course my arguement is that I'm not liable for VRT in the first place and I'm not going to stick Irish plates on it when there is no need for it. It would cause me problems at home!

Still have to taxed/ insured/ nct'd in the state

TrailerBob

marsbar1 wrote: »

Seasons greetings. I've just been stopped my foriegn registered car siezed by customs to release - €200. I'm only here on holiday doing up a derelict house, and am not working.

I'm not sure if you can be on holiday , and doing up a house at the same time. Do you own the house? Surely that qualifies for residency..

There's a reason that customs have stopped you and asked questions. If you are driving around with bags of cement, or a pile of tools, then I don't blame the customs man for not believing you tbh.. doesn't fit the 'on holiday' status

Under His Eye

Need to be in Ireland 183 days to be resident.

KevRossi

You can also work in any EU country for up to 3 months at a time without registering in any kind of manner. So if you're doing a house up, or working on any kind of contract you don't need PRSI, to register with the police/town hall etc.

There's another regulation for 3-6 months but I forget how it works.

I'd get in touch with the VRT office in Rosslare and make a query.

I presume you've a UK drivers licence, PRSI number (whatever its called) and proof of residence in the UK.

myshirt

If it's all above board you'll be grand, don't worry about it, just see it through. However if you are trying to pull a fast one or think in any way you can try game your way out of it on technicalities, you will get F*CKING HAMMERED beyond belief. These people deal with this day in day out, this will always beat the punter who thinks he can google his way out of it.

The only person who gets hammered worse is the guy who says if worse comes to worse he just won't pay up. You'll get your income garnished.

CiniO

colm_c wrote: »

It's up to you to prove it otherwise everyone would claim the same.

Oh yeah - Welcome to Ireland where honest people are being treated like criminals, just because they fit the profile.
This - guilty unless proven innocent thing, which is common in Ireland, is absolutely insane and unseen anywhere else in civilized world.

ba_barabus wrote: »

Are you being paid to do up the house?

What's the difference if he's here only 45 days?

corks finest wrote: »

FFS 45 days,I'd say you're taking the pi's*

corks finest wrote: »

Still have to taxed/ insured/ nct'd in the state

yea sure.

TrailerBob wrote: »

I'm not sure if you can be on holiday , and doing up a house at the same time. Do you own the house? Surely that qualifies for residency..

No. Owning a house doesn't qualify for residency.
Residency is based on where you live, work and have family and personal ties.

Going to different country for 45 days to do up your house which you own there, definitely doesn't qualify you as resident in that country.

NIMAN

In a lot of the customs /vrt cases I have heard of in Donegal, the revenue guys know their stuff and are usually in the right.

Op, are you being 100% truthful?

Victor

Under His Eye wrote: »

Need to be in Ireland 183 days to be resident.

There may be different definitions for different purposes.

ba_barabus

CiniO wrote: »

What's the difference if he's here only 45 days

Just trying to establish the full picture before giving advice but I forgot that's frowned upon here :rolleyes:

Pops_20

Slightly unrelated, but there a person at my workplace who has been driving a Swiss registered car for at least 4 years, every day, all year around. It would appear that its easy to get away with.

ba_barabus

Pops_20 wrote: »

Slightly unrelated, but there a person at my workplace who has been driving a Swiss registered car for at least 4 years, every day, all year around. It would appear that its easy to get away with.

From what I can see they mostly rely on people reporting them to revenue unless you are unlucky enough to meet a checkpoint. Not seen one in 3 years though.

Spook_ie

marsbar1 wrote: »

Seasons greetings. I've just been stopped my foriegn registered car siezed by customs to release - €200. I'm only here on holiday doing up a derelict house, and am not working. Customs guy didn't believe me and was going to leave me stranded without the car and I don't know the law here so I stopped arguing and just paid him the money he was clearly out to get. I have to import the car and pay VRT, total will be 4 times what the car is worth to a dealer, so not worth it--- or to remove the car permanently from Ireland within 30 days

What is the law on this? I thought you only had to import the car if you were a working resident in Ireland? Or is it any stay over 30 days regardless of if you are working or not?

What happens if I keep driving it and they stop me again on my next trip over here ?

You would be considered resident for tax purposes if you exceeded 280 days over a 2 year period for the 2nd year, also

From tax year 2009 onwards, the midnight rule no longer applies, and you are treated as being present in the State, if you are present in the State at any time during that day.

Would read to me that if you visited for an hour a day that would constitute a day in Ireland, but, if you were ordinarily resident in Ireland then you would remain ordinarily resident until you have been non resident for 3 years.

Ordinary residence
Your pattern of residence over a number of years is taken into account to decide your ‘ordinary residence’.

If you have been resident for the previous three tax years, then you become ordinarily resident from the start of the fourth year. If you leave the country, you will continue to be ordinarily resident until you have been non-resident for three continuous tax years.

VRT is calculated on normal residency so you would need to provide proof that you weren't normally resident in the state if you were importing the vehicle so I would assume the same proof would be required to prove your entitlement to drive a foreign registered vehicle in the sate

Normal residence requirements
Your normal residence generally is:

the place where you usually live, for at least 185 days each year, because of occupational and personal ties if you live in two different countries due to occupational and personal ties, the country of your personal ties provided:
you return there regularly
or
you are working abroad carrying out a task of definite duration for less than one year.
not affected by living abroad to study.
To qualify you must prove you: have had normal residence abroad
and are taking up normal residence in the State.
You will need evidence, both abroad and in the State, of: acquiring and disposing of a home (for example, rent agreements, mortgage documents and rent or mortgage payments) employment (for example, pay slips, tax records and social welfare records) day-to-day living (bank statements or transaction documents, bills or receipts for electricity, phone, service charges and other day-to-day living expenses) travel into and out of the country.

Wildly Boaring

CiniO wrote: »

Oh yeah - Welcome to Ireland where honest people are being treated like criminals, just because they fit the profile.
This - guilty unless proven innocent thing, which is common in Ireland, is absolutely insane and unseen anywhere else in civilized world.

Agree with most of your post. But I assume the poster meant prove to revenue.

Sure the UK would lift a car on you in 5 mins if you cant prove you are right.

US would throw away the keys

BronsonTB

Best you clarify with your local revenue office that you are exempt from VRT.
Get it in writing & carry this Official letter when stopped.

Otherwise the officer has to presume you need to pay the VRT.
You are in the state with a foreign registered vehicle over 30 days, the onus is on you to prove you don't need to pay vrt.
The customs officer is just doing his job. (i.e. Checking foreign vehicles).

Pops_20

Pops_20 wrote: »

Slightly unrelated, but there a person at my workplace who has been driving a Swiss registered car for at least 4 years, every day, all year around. It would appear that its easy to get away with.

Are his family ties (wife, kids etc) outside the state? If you are working and living here but you are from say the UK and all your family ties are there and you are in Ireland just to work then it is possible to keep your foreign registered car but it’s not easy.

Seth Brundle

In fairness it should be relatively simple to show that you're not resident here through bank statements showing withdrawals, mobile phone bill (from your home provider), return journey ticket, etc.
From the sounds of this case, if I were the revenue official, I'd have had the same suspicious view of the OP.

Under His Eye

Return ticket showing date of entry and a foreign driving licence/residence permit is usually enough to dispel all but the most inquisitive revenue officials.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Under His Eye wrote: »

Return ticket showing date of entry and a foreign driving licence/residence permit is usually enough to dispel all but the most inquisitive revenue officials.

This.

If you can produce the above items along with your insurance policy from your home country then I can’t see why or how any customs officer could seize your car.

marsbar1

TrailerBob wrote: »

I'm not sure if you can be on holiday , and doing up a house at the same time. Do you own the house? Surely that qualifies for residency..

There's a reason that customs have stopped you and asked questions. If you are driving around with bags of cement, or a pile of tools, then I don't blame the customs man for not believing you tbh.. doesn't fit the 'on holiday' status

No not being paid to do up the house, and the house is at present non habitable. As previously said, its about being resident in Ireland - I'm not resident. My residence is in another country where the car is taxed, insured, registered etc. As I see it the 30 day rule would only apply to a permanent resident of Ireland, those who live and work here etc.

marsbar1

Seth Brundle wrote: »

In fairness it should be relatively simple to show that you're not resident here through bank statements showing withdrawals, mobile phone bill (from your home provider), return journey ticket, etc.
From the sounds of this case, if I were the revenue official, I'd have had the same suspicious view of the OP.

I had no idea that these guys were liable to harass visitors to the country. So I have not ever carried any of these documents around. I did not have the insurance docs on me let alone my personal bank statements or mobile phone bills!. All my bank statements are online. If I had known about all this then I could have made sure I printed statements showing shopping etc from back home and brought them with me but this does seem to be over the top and an invasion of your personal data. But they didn't ask me for these anyway.

Charles Babbage

Under His Eye wrote: »

Need to be in Ireland 183 days to be resident.

Why do people continually refer to income tax residency when it is VRT that is at issue?

The OP has been rather unclear about whether he was previously resident in the ROI and when he ceased to be so, if he was.

prinzeugen

Op, in which country do you hold a driving licence? ROI or elsewhere?

marsbar1

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Why do people continually refer to income tax residency when it is VRT that is at issue?

Because if you read the VRT.ie notes, VRT is only due for people who are resident in Ireland, which is the same as where you are domiciled for tax? Therefore 183 days etc apply. It would be like you going to Spain to work for 90 days in your Irish car but then the Spanish say you have to have Spanish plates and pay duty to import it you are living in Spain, when you were only staying 90 days, The Spanish would be wrong since you are not Spanish resident

so then you have to pay VRT to get your Irish plates back after 90 days....!
And no I've never been ROI tax resident

marsbar1

prinzeugen wrote: »

Op, in which country do you hold a driving licence? ROI or elsewhere?

Elsewhere and I showed the guy it and it has my non irish address on it. Made no difference. I think the guy was a jobsworth and I was intimidated, and he took full advantage. I never get stopped by police ever at home - I found it stressful and embarrassing.

Charles Babbage

marsbar1 wrote: »

Because if you read the VRT.ie notes, VRT is only due for people who are resident in Ireland, which is the same as where you are domiciled for tax? Therefore 183 days etc apply. It would be like you going to Spain to work for 90 days in your Irish car but then the Spanish say you have to have Spanish plates and pay duty to import it you are living in Spain, when you were only staying 90 days, The Spanish would be wrong since you are not Spanish resident

so then you have to pay VRT to get your Irish plates back after 90 days....!
And no I've never been ROI tax resident

As was explained above, you could be tax resident but not have normal residence for VRT.

Something doesn't add up here.

swarlb

Ok. You are here on 'holidays'. So, by that statement alone, you, at some stage will be returning home, which obviously is in a different country.
Is it the UK, or mainland Europe.
Either way I find it difficult to believe that customs would seize someone's (who is on holiday) property, and then tell them they needed to pay tax to register it in the country.
Why on earth would they do that ? If you are on holiday surely you have proof that you are/need to return home, ferry tickets and the like.
I've been on 'holiday' plenty of times, both in the UK and Europe, and have often been stopped by customs. Usually the nature of the questions revolved around 'what is the purpose of your trip'.
If I were you I'd go to the nearest police station and try to find out why customs took your car, and stopped you from going home, after your holiday.

GM228

Penelope Plain Twill wrote: »

Are his family ties (wife, kids etc) outside the state? If you are working and living here but you are from say the UK and all your family ties are there and you are in Ireland just to work then it is possible to keep your foreign registered car but it’s not easy.

You have that wrong, it's for occupational ties (not family) outside the state and you must only return to the state on your days off, you can't be in the state for more than 3 nights per week and you can't be paying your income tax here either.

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

This - guilty unless proven innocent thing, which is common in Ireland, is absolutely insane and unseen anywhere else in civilized world.

There is no guilty until proven innocent in Ireland.

There are however Statutory Presumptions, that is to say a rebuttable presumption created by statute (we also have some conclusive presumptions, but I won't get into those technicalities of law), and nearly every common law and civil law jurisdiction in the world has them, they do not interfere with the presumption of innocence.

FanadMan

So op, you're from the UK, you've bought a holiday home in Ireland (Roscommon?) and renovating it? Why not say all that in the first post? Why all the subterfuge? Or are you living in the holiday home and still driving a UK reg car?

Sam Quentin

The customs are wee divils.. they took fireworks of me before at the border and had a BIG display in their own house hmmmmm..
And me mother told me they took butter off her years ago and apparently had lovely delicious sang-wid-ges for weeks after hmmmmmm..

Seth Brundle

marsbar1 wrote: »

No not being paid to do up the house, and the house is at present non habitable. As previously said, its about being resident in Ireland - I'm not resident. My residence is in another country where the car is taxed, insured, registered etc. As I see it the 30 day rule would only apply to a permanent resident of Ireland, those who live and work here etc.

Under what circumstances did you end up doing up a house (presumably not your own) for no money whilst here on some form of holiday?
Have you a return date on your ticket home?

corks finest

Seth Brundle wrote: »

marsbar1 wrote: »

No not being paid to do up the house, and the house is at present non habitable. As previously said, its about being resident in Ireland - I'm not resident. My residence is in another country where the car is taxed, insured, registered etc. As I see it the 30 day rule would only apply to a permanent resident of Ireland, those who live and work here etc.

Under what circumstances did you end up doing up a house (presumably not your own) for no money whilst here on some form of holiday?
Have you a return date on your ticket home?

He's waffling, trying it on

cnocbui

I wonder how many commenters here have ever set foot on a ferry. I have made multiple trips and never once bought a return fare as the return date was always indeterminate.

Op needs to prove his foreign residency and ask for every penny back.

GM228

GM228 wrote: »

You have that wrong, it's for occupational ties (not family) outside the state and you must only return to the state on your days off, you can't be in the state for more than 3 nights per week and you can't be paying your income tax here either.

I don’t have it wrong, there was a poster on here in the past who gave a detailed account of how he successfully remained driving his NI registered vehicle (with reveunve eventual blessing) despite living and paying tax in the south but regularly returning to family ties in the north.

newmember2

OP, this guy you gave 200 quid to, he showed you some sort of ID, yes?

TrailerBob

A lad in pub told him that he can't fine you unless he's wearing his hat, or if he has shoes bigger than size 10, or doesn't quote the entire act of legislation for car seizure verbatim, including commas and full stops.

I haven't known revenue & customs to seize a car without some reason. I'm also not sure the OP is being entirely forthcoming with information. I'll go out on a limb and suggest we are dealing with this island only. I also don't think the OP is actually on holiday... More of a legal definition being used. I've spent considerable time in other jurisdictions without getting hassle from anybody. There's a flag here somewhere

corks finest

TrailerBob wrote: »

A lad in pub told him that he can't fine you unless he's wearing his hat, or if he has shoes bigger than size 10, or doesn't quote the entire act of legislation for car seizure verbatim, including commas and full stops.

I haven't known revenue & customs to seize a car without some reason. I'm also not sure the OP is being entirely forthcoming with information. I'll go out on a limb and suggest we are dealing with this island only. I also don't think the OP is actually on holiday... More of a legal definition being used. I've spent considerable time in other jurisdictions without getting hassle from anybody. There's a flag here somewhere

Correct

GM228

Penelope Plain Twill wrote: »

I don’t have it wrong, there was a poster on here in the past who gave a detailed account of how he successfully remained driving his NI registered vehicle (with reveunve eventual blessing) despite living and paying tax in the south but regularly returning to family ties in the north.

Well, we had this very conversation last year, when I pointed this out, you clarified that you got it wrong.

In any case a "poster" can claim all they want, but it is specifically forbidden by statute and is an offence, Revenue are not above the law and can't give a blessing to an illegal act.

What you are suggesting is illegal under Irish law and not permitted under EU rules, the "ties" exemption option is as I already outlined which is a concessionary measure allowed by Revenue.

CiniO

GM228 wrote: »

There is no guilty until proven innocent in Ireland.

There are however Statutory Presumptions, that is to say a rebuttable presumption created by statute (we also have some conclusive presumptions, but I won't get into those technicalities of law), and nearly every common law and civil law jurisdiction in the world has them, they do not interfere with the presumption of innocence.

But how else can you call laws which require honest citizens to prove they are not guilty.

Examples being OP's case;
Or for instance the law which makes presumption that when car was caught speeding by the camera, then it's the registered owner who was driving, unless he can prove otherwise.

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

But how else can you call laws which require honest citizens to prove they are not guilty.

Examples being OP's case;
Or for instance the law which makes presumption that when car was caught speeding by the camera, then it's the registered owner who was driving, unless he can prove otherwise.

You do not prove you are not guilty, you rebut a presumption in regards to certain facts.

And with regards to the speeding issue, there is a statutory presumption you were the driver, however, that presumption only arises when you don't nominate another driver.

You automatically rebut any presumption by nominating another driver, but, you don't have to prove it though, and failure to nominate another driver does not mean automatic prosecution, you can then rebut on the balance of probability.

CiniO

GM228 wrote: »

You do not prove you are not guilty, you rebut a presumption in regards to certain facts.

And with regards to the speeding issue, there is a statutory presumption you were the driver, however, that presumption only arises when you don't nominate another driver.

You automatically rebut any presumption by nominating another driver, but, you don't have to prove it though, and failure to nominate another driver does not mean automatic prosecution, you can then rebut on the balance of probability.

I recall reading here, that if your car was caught speeding, you were automatically presumed to be the driver, and that presumption could be ceased by you nominating another driver but only if he accepted liability.
So in other words, if you nominated your uncle from America, who got the fine posted to his American address, but didn't respond, then you were still liable.
Is that not true?

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

I recall reading here, that if your car was caught speeding, you were automatically presumed to be the driver, and that presumption could be ceased by you nominating another driver but only if he accepted liability.
So in other words, if you nominated your uncle from America, who got the fine posted to his American address, but didn't respond, then you were still liable.
Is that not true?

Totally incorrect CiniO, the presumption is as I outlined above.

GM228

GM228 wrote: »

Well, we had this very conversation last year, when I pointed this out, you clarified that you got it wrong.

In any case a "poster" can claim all they want, but it is specifically forbidden by statute and is an offence, Revenue are not above the law and can't give a blessing to an illegal act.

What you are suggesting is illegal under Irish law and not permitted under EU rules, the "ties" exemption option is as I already outlined which is a concessionary measure allowed by Revenue.

I know the person outside of this forum and I have seen first hand that they were allowd to live in the south and drive an NI registered car so it’s not just based on what was posted online.

GM228 wrote: »

You do not prove you are not guilty, you rebut a presumption in regards to certain facts.

And with regards to the speeding issue, there is a statutory presumption you were the driver, however, that presumption only arises when you don't nominate another driver.

You automatically rebut any presumption by nominating another driver, but, you don't have to prove it though, and failure to nominate another driver does not mean automatic prosecution, you can then rebut on the balance of probability.

Stop taking nonsense, it is a fact he is right. You are guilty until proved innocent in many situations in Ireland when it comes to motoring, VRT being a major one.

Charles Babbage

GM228 wrote: »

Well, we had this very conversation last year, when I pointed this out, you clarified that you got it wrong.

In any case a "poster" can claim all they want, but it is specifically forbidden by statute and is an offence, Revenue are not above the law and can't give a blessing to an illegal act.

What you are suggesting is illegal under Irish law and not permitted under EU rules, the "ties" exemption option is as I already outlined which is a concessionary measure allowed by Revenue.

Normal residence is established by family ties, which is not a concession but is in the EU directive.

It isn't a question of number of days alone. If you were spending Christmas in the State for instance, this would suggest that this was your home rather than just a place to sleep.