What kind of ftp/Watts per kg do I need to ride the junior tour/any big A3,A2 races?

RowanHarley

So I'm currently training on trainerroad but I'd like to know what power I need to have to compete in these bigger events.

dahat

Really? Same sort of stuff from last season.

RowanHarley

dahat wrote: »

Really? Same sort of stuff from last season.

Yes but last year I had no power meter. I invested in one at September and am now following structured plans, rather than just doing some KOM hunting

dahat

To be competitive in the big A3 races my guess would be easily 5-6 watts/kg.

*a guess*

Get a coach or see one as a once off consultation maybe is my best advice.

JimmiesRustled

5 sec - 19.2 w/kg
1 min - 11.7 w/kg
5 min - 6.9 w/kg
20 min - 5.3 w/kg

That's pretty typical of A4.

J Madone

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

5 sec - 19.2 w/kg
1 min - 11.7 w/kg
5 min - 6.9 w/kg
20 min - 5.3 w/kg

That's pretty typical of A4.

I doubt it

JimmiesRustled

J Madone wrote: »

I doubt it

No seriously. They won't even let you sign on to race with anything less.

dahat

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

5 sec - 19.2 w/kg
1 min - 11.7 w/kg
5 min - 6.9 w/kg
20 min - 5.3 w/kg

That's pretty typical of A4.

A4? I doubt that as well, was a decent A4 with no way near those figures.

JimmiesRustled

dahat wrote: »

A4? I doubt that as well, was a decent A4 with no way near those figures.

Thought it was pretty clear that was a piss take. The question gets asked every winter coming into the new season in one guise or another. "What ftp do I need to start racing?"
"what max power do I need to win a race?"
"What power do I need so that I'm never out of breath in a race?"

To answer OP's question ftp and w/kg are only part of the overall picture and without your race data or training data no one here can give you a hard fast answer. Sure we could come out and give a ridiculous answer like the one I gave in my first post and it'd be pretty hard to drop you in any race bar pro races.

There's so much more to it. Having your best 20 minute effort be 6w/kg is fantastic or having your 1 minute power up at 12w/kg is unreal but what's your repeatability like? Does that 12w/kg drop to 2w/kg after the first effort?

It's not as simple as have x w/kg for 1/5/20 minutes and you're grand. Commit to a programme either from a coach or whatever you're looking to use and sticky with it. You'll find out soon enough come race season if you're ready.

CramCycle

Get on the bike and race, you'll soon find out if your good enough. If your not, you will be at A4 level if you keep going. If you are, you'll soon be A3 once you learn how to race.

c.p.w.g.w

You can have amazing power numbers, but if you can't handle yourself in the group, you won't go far. The level of bike handling at A4 is scary. Only raced twice many moons ago, scared the bejaysus out of me. Lads braking for anything small thing. Dropping water bottles, taking silly lines around corners.

Would like to do a few next year to challenge myself, but I need to keep my OH from finding out about the crashes at A4 or she won't allow me ride ha ha

Lumen

Get a coach. Your club should be supporting your training at this age. If it isn't, change club.

CramCycle

Lumen wrote: »

Get a coach. Your club should be supporting your training at this age. If it isn't, change club.

He has got us, what does he need a coach for :cool:

Taxuser1

RowanHarley wrote: »

So I'm currently training on trainerroad but I'd like to know what power I need to have to compete in these bigger events.

Best of luck for Year ahead. When you mean compete, do you mean challenge to win or just to get around? Are you first or second year junior and did you ride 2 years under 16. How did you get on?

To answer your question frankly, power numbers will need to be really good to place or win junior races towards A2 and onto A1 level. But you also need a good brain and be exceedingly resilient, fit and strong which isn't actually just power based. The best juniors last year were regularly placing in top senior Irish classics. I'm thinking Liam Curley and Aaron Doherty in the John Beggs and the Laragh Classic. And they were far from the best in the country. The twins will and archie Ryan are awesome climbers and fit and I expect them to be the main guys next year. Both of them are already at a serious A1 level.

Keep the head down and do your training. Don't worry so much about results. You'll get better as the year goes along.

Miklos

How did you get on racing last season?

Plastik

Those bloody Ryan kids have been breaking my heart since they were about 14.

RowanHarley

Taxuser1 wrote: »

Best of luck for Year ahead. When you mean compete, do you mean challenge to win or just to get around? Are you first or second year junior and did you ride 2 years under 16. How did you get on?

To answer your question frankly, power numbers will need to be really good to place or win junior races towards A2 and onto A1 level. But you also need a good brain and be exceedingly resilient, fit and strong which isn't actually just power based. The best juniors last year were regularly placing in top senior Irish classics. I'm thinking Liam Curley and Aaron Doherty in the John Beggs and the Laragh Classic. And they were far from the best in the country. The twins will and archie Ryan are awesome climbers and fit and I expect them to be the main guys next year. Both of them are already at a serious A1 level.

Keep the head down and do your training. Don't worry so much about results. You'll get better as the year goes along.

Well first of all I'd just like to be able to stick in the group, but I would like to compete to a certain extent. I.E, get into breaks, maybe try a few sprint finishes or even try to form my own breakaway. I'm a smaller cyclist at like 5ft 5" so breakaways probably wouldnt work well for me but I'd like to give them a try anyways

RowanHarley

Miklos wrote: »

How did you get on racing last season?

Pretty average, didnt go near the sprints, just sat in the bunches, tried some stuff but the main aim was just to get used to riding in a tight packed group

Taxuser1

RowanHarley wrote: »

Well first of all I'd just like to be able to stick in the group, but I would like to compete to a certain extent. I.E, get into breaks, maybe try a few sprint finishes or even try to form my own breakaway. I'm a smaller cyclist at like 5ft 5" so breakaways probably wouldnt work well for me but I'd like to give them a try anyways

Keep at it. Get the training in then get the race legs and build on the confidence you have gained from last season. Each day you'll be a better racer and then you'll get there. Sounds like you're racing already which is great, sometimes getting off the front is hard enough. Staying there might mean following and Learing the riders in form, having patience and not burning matches easily on nonsensical efforts. Save for that one special effort and learn to be cute.

letape

Lumen wrote: »

Get a coach. Your club should be supporting your training at this age. If it isn't, change club.

Forgot the coach. New faster wheels would make all the difference.

Bambaata

5 min power, 5 min power!! If you're slight use it to your advantage and hurt on hills, bigger lads will be suffering too but worse!

I wouldn't be too concerned about FTP, learn to ride bunches (says me who can't to save his life)! As a point of how awfully I ride bunches I often average another zone higher than lads far better than me for NP and AP over races but because I can't ride bunches my peaks are when I'm getting back into position because I let myself slip too far back too easily and I end up finishing well back

TGD

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

5 sec - 19.2 w/kg
1 min - 11.7 w/kg
5 min - 6.9 w/kg
20 min - 5.3 w/kg

That's pretty typical of A4.

4 w/kg (estimated hour) and you will survive ‘easily’ and could be in the mix if you can surf a bunch

dahat

TGD wrote: »

4 w/kg (estimated hour) and you will survive ‘easily’ and could be in the mix if you can surf a bunch

3 w/kg would be fine for A4 once you have a kick at the end.

Lumen

dahat wrote: »

3 w/kg would be fine for A4 once you have a kick at the end.

Comparisons with A4 are irrelevant for juniors though.

dahat

Lumen wrote: »

Comparisons with A4 are irrelevant for juniors though.

This is true, I read that comment wrong.

Op needs to stop getting hung up on power etc and just get training & building his skillset for racing.

TGD

letape wrote: »

Forgot the coach. New faster wheels would make all the difference.

And don't forget the latex tube

DKmac

Average FTP for A3 is 308w or 4.22 w/kg.
A2 is 325w
A1 is 350w

sullzz

DKmac wrote: »

Average FTP for A3 is 308w or 4.22 w/kg.
A2 is 325w
A1 is 350w

Where did you get those figures?

dahat

DKmac wrote: »

Average FTP for A3 is 308w or 4.22 w/kg.
A2 is 325w
A1 is 350w

May as well not take out a license this year if these are correct.

Always exceptions but I know a few A2 with sub 300 ftp around 75kgs.

sullzz

I'd say this is accurate enough.

Taxuser1

DKmac wrote: »

Average FTP for A3 is 308w or 4.22 w/kg.
A2 is 325w
A1 is 350w

Looking forward to comparing this to the recent sticky bottle research trawl for dit. It might not be too far off.

dahat

Taxuser1 wrote: »

Looking forward to comparing this to the recent sticky bottle research trawl for dit. It might not be too far off.

That survey will be interesting when the results are published.

It's bodyweight that seems to be key really as pushing big power is pointless if you've got a big ass on the bike. I'd say a racing weight around 80-90kgs would give the majority lads a chance in most A3/A4 races.

Takca

dahat wrote: »

That survey will be interesting when the results are published.

Is it just me or is the article on sticky bottle missing a link to the survey?
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/survey-irish-racing-cyclists/

Arthurdaly

sullzz wrote:

Where did you get those figures?

DKmac wrote:

Average FTP for A3 is 308w or 4.22 w/kg. A2 is 325w A1 is 350w

I'd say those numbers are well overstated. 4.22 would hang with an a1 bunch on an undulating course, might not be enough in something like shay, des, laragh etc.

harringtonp

sullzz wrote: »

I'd say this is accurate enough.

Yes there has been some good advice here but a lot of very incorrect stuff in addition to the obvious (to some anyway) piss take.

That table posted by sullzz is pretty spot on and it you are looking for guidelines that should be it.

And the likes of your FTP and 5 minute power do mean a lot. Without race craft etc you won't get the most out of your numbers but if you don't have the numbers in the first place you'll be out the back in higher end races no matter how good your positioning and craft is.

Having raced A3 for years I can confirm that power figures around the middle of cat 3 in the table can sometimes get you up the road and staying away in breaks in lower end A3 races (usually the mid summer ones). The same numbers will allow you hang on to bunches in A2/3 stage races but you'd be doing very really well to get up the road for any length of time with them.

El CabaIIo

I don't get the obsession with power in cycling. I run and you'll never hear a runner ask what pace does your threshold need to be at to run Novice cross country. That's something you might think about in training to provide stimulus to different energy systems to improve them or give you an idea how to pace but a race is a race, it's about getting across the line in the best position.

Isnt the idea of all that training to go out and race? Is there some element of fear of being dropped or something? Well I've got news for anyone who thinks that way, there will always be someone faster than you, welcome to the real world! Why not just go out and challenge yourself? Worst case sceanario you get dropped and learn a few lessons from better riders than you. You dust yourself off and go again and maybe end up in the bunch and get to see how the top guys operate at the front. Things a power meter will never teach you. Getting beat and failing is a rite of passage in sport.

harringtonp

El CabaIIo wrote: »

I don't get the obsession with power in cycling. I run and you'll never hear a runner ask what pace does your threshold need to be at to run Novice cross country. That's something you might think about in training to provide stimulus to different energy systems to improve them or give you an idea how to pace but a race is a race, it's about getting across the line in the best position.

Isnt the idea of all that training to go out and race? Is there some element of fear of being dropped or something? Well I've got news for anyone who thinks that way, there will always be someone faster than you, welcome to the real world! Why not just go out and challenge yourself?

That does sound like a runner's or triathlete's perspective. There is no such thing as a bunch in either of these events. You often see triathlete's (and I'm not having a go at them, went from triathlon to racing myself) who are new to racing getting dropped and riding several laps on their own to finish the race. In general seasoned racers won't finish in this scenario unless it is a stage race, they don't see the point of riding laps on their own. So yes there is a huge fear of getting dropped and being on your own, nobody likes it !

The great thing about road racing is that unlike all other endurance sports you can finish on the same time as riders who are way stronger than you... I've finished in the same bunch as Eddie Dunbar on at least one occasion.

Raam

El CabaIIo wrote: »

I don't get the obsession with power in cycling. I run and you'll never hear a runner ask what pace does your threshold need to be at to run Novice cross country. That's something you might think about in training to provide stimulus to different energy systems to improve them or give you an idea how to pace but a race is a race, it's about getting across the line in the best position.

Isnt the idea of all that training to go out and race? Is there some element of fear of being dropped or something? Well I've got news for anyone who thinks that way, there will always be someone faster than you, welcome to the real world! Why not just go out and challenge yourself? Worst case sceanario you get dropped and learn a few lessons from better riders than you. You dust yourself off and go again and maybe end up in the bunch and get to see how the top guys operate at the front. Things a power meter will never teach you. Getting beat and failing is a rite of passage in sport.

Training with a PM is super effective. I never pay attention to it in a race other than a TT.

El CabaIIo

harringtonp wrote: »

That does sound like a runner's or triathlete's perspective. There is no such thing as a bunch in either of these events. You often see triathlete's (and I'm not having a go at them, went from triathlon to racing myself) who are new to racing getting dropped and riding several laps on their own to finish the race. In general seasoned racers won't finish in this scenario unless it is a stage race, they don't see the point of riding laps on their own. So yes there is a huge fear of getting dropped and being on your own, nobody likes it !

The great thing about road racing is that unlike all other endurance sports you can finish on the same time as riders who are way stronger than you... I've finished in the same bunch as Eddie Dunbar on at least one occasion.

But we're not talking about seasoned riders who are only out for wins or points, we're talking about someone who is asking what it takes to finish in the bunch or whatever when they ask for power figures. And even if they do get dropped and do the same as the seasoned rider and pull over, what's the harm?

I don't think you can beat competition of actual racing to drive home a point whatever sport it is. You can tell someone to aim for these numbers or that number but none of them will have what it feels like and seeing what it takes to compete at that level like a race. And the motivation that come from that will be 100 times better than what you will get from staring at a power meter on your training rides or doing power tests on your turbo in the living room until the day you hit some random number that you think it's safe to ride at to finish in the bunch.

harringtonp

El CabaIIo wrote: »

But we're not talking about seasoned riders who are only out for wins or points, we're talking about someone who is asking what it takes to finish in the bunch or whatever when they ask for power figures. And even if they do get dropped and do the same as the seasoned rider and pull over, what's the harm?

I don't think you can beat competition of actual racing to drive home a point whatever sport it is. You can tell someone to aim for these numbers or that number but none of them will have what it feels like and seeing what it takes to compete at that level like a race. And the motivation that come from that will be 100 times better than what you will get from staring at a power meter on your training rides or doing power tests on your turbo in the living room until the day you hit some random number that you think it's safe to ride at to finish in the bunch.

Yes, can't argue with this. You do need to race to make sense of it all and give the numbers some context. Racing is the only thing that makes the hard training bearable.