Scrapping Daylight Saving time

plodder

Don't know if there's been a thread already, but there is a consultation on this which closes soon. Apparently, the EU has the power to abolish DST if that is the collective decision of its member states. If it decides to abolish, then each country can decide what timezone they want to be in. So, the choice for us would be keeping either Winter time or Summer time permanently.

If we switched to Summer time, then sunrise in the middle of Winter would be at 9:37am on the east coast and 9:50am on the West. It's swings and roundabouts obviously as you would have an extra hour of daylight in the afternoon. But, personally I would prefer to keep the status-quo and would choose Winter time over Summer time if I had to choose.

Consultation here (closes on Friday):

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Consultation_on_Seasonal_Clock_Changes

Hurrache

Why would you chose winter time over summer and lose all those evening daylight hours for rides and other sport?

magicbastarder

common wisdom seems to accept that there will be fewer deaths on the roads if we stick to summer time.
that said, it'll be much easier to point to people whose lives were lost in morning RTAs than it will be to people whose lives weren't lost in evening RTAs.

plodder

Hurrache wrote: »

Why would you chose winter time over summer and lose all those evening daylight hours for rides and other sport?

I guess it boils down to whether you are a morning person or an evening/afternoon one.

How many is "all those" anyway? Part of my problem with this whole thing is the poor quality of the information on the consultation. As far as I understand it DST only matters for some period of time in Spring and Autumn. Obviously, in the middle of Summer you have all the daylight you want anyway, and in Winter it's very limited at both ends of the day.

On accident stats, I understand there is a spike around the time the clocks change, but if accident rates are related to the level of darkness, then you would expect a spike like that, but it doesn't prove that the overall rate will be any different (not certain of this point though).

magicbastarder

the logic is that you're better having the darkness in the morning, when motorists are (theoretically) well rested and more alert, and brighter evenings when they've done a day's work and are driving home on autopilot.
summer time was originally introduced for the benefit of farmers, IIRC; who would generally be up earlier than the rest of the population. britain even had double daylight savings time during WWII.

Hurrache

Apart from the road safety issue, my main concern is from a recreational point of view. Think of all the evenings you enjoy out and about coming into, and leaving summer.

At the end of the summer into September it starts getting dark not long after 8. If you want to keep winter hours that'll be 7, you get home from work say an average of 6pm, and by the time you get ready and back out again your daylight is gone. You're buying into that forever.

Wishbone Ash

Hurrache wrote: »

Why would you chose winter time over summer and lose all those evening daylight hours for rides and other sport?

I'd go for winter time as it is the real time. Summer time is false as it's an hour ahead of what it should be. Darkness doesn't bother me or limit my cycles.

magicbastarder

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'd go for winter time as it is the real time.

sure us dubs are 25 minutes off 'real time' anyway.

plodder

Well if we're forced to change, maybe we should trial it one way one year, the other way the next year, and then decide after that. We'll have some real data to help decide rather than unproven assumptions.

seamus

plodder wrote: »

On accident stats, I understand there is a spike around the time the clocks change, but if accident rates are related to the level of darkness, then you would expect a spike like that, but it doesn't prove that the overall rate will be any different (not certain of this point though).

IIRC (don't have the stats to hand), the stats show a general correlation between darkness and incidents, but when taken as a whole the evening commute is statistically more dangerous than the morning one.

Although it might seem like common sense to think that in the morning drivers will be sleepy and slow to react, in reality it's the evening commute where drivers are more likely to be tired and distracted; the events of the day swirling in their head.

Thus in terms of DST and road safety, if the option is between light in the morning or light in the evening, then it makes sense to leave the light in the evening where it's needed most.

Hurrache

I sound like a hippy here but "real time" is just a construct, maaann. It can be anything we want it.

magicbastarder

plodder wrote: »

Well if we're forced to change, maybe we should trial it one way one year, the other way the next year, and then decide after that. We'll have some real data to help decide rather than unproven assumptions.

this sounds like chaos.
reminds me of the fuss we had in work a few years ago when the government in egypt decided - with about three days notice - that they weren't going to change their clocks. microsoft had to issue an emergency patch which would prevent egyptian computers from changing time by an hour on the expected date.

seamus

Hurrache wrote: »

I sound like a hippy here but "real time" is just a construct, maaann. It can be anything we want it.

This is why I don't buy the "it was for the farmers" explanation. The cows don't know what time it is. If the cows got up in the pitch black today, they're going to get up in the pitch black tomorrow, they're not going to have a lie in because the clocks went back

plodder

magicbastarder wrote: »

this sounds like chaos.
reminds me of the fuss we had in work a few years ago when the government in egypt decided - with about three days notice - that they weren't going to change their clocks. microsoft had to issue an emergency patch which would prevent egyptian computers from changing time by an hour on the expected date.

Changing the clocks once per year would be chaos (potentially for two years), but twice per year as we do now isn't?

eeeee

Summer time all the way. Evening doing things time please

Plastik

I'll take summer time, midweek club league racing, and long spins in the daylight of a summer's evening thanks.

Eamonnator

magicbastarder wrote: »

sure us dubs are 25 minutes off 'real time' anyway.

And those in Clifden are 40 minutes off.

07Lapierre

Split the difference.whrn the clock is due to go forward for summertime..just move it 30 minutes ahead and leave it there.

tomasrojo

seamus wrote: »

This is why I don't buy the "it was for the farmers" explanation. The cows don't know what time it is. If the cows got up in the pitch black today, they're going to get up in the pitch black tomorrow, they're not going to have a lie in because the clocks went back

Reminds me of the probably apocryphal story about the farmer in the Midwest who wrote to implore Congress not to pass a Daylight Saving Time bill, adding an hour of light to summer evenings, as, while it was all very well for city folk, his crops couldn't take another hour of strong sunlight.

Tar.Aldarion

MUch prefer summer time personally, an extra hour of light in the evening would be much better for actually doing things. It's fairly miserable atm.

tomasrojo

There's something about DST and farmers here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-daylight-saving-time/2015/03/06/970092d4-c2c1-11e4-9271-610273846239_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a614eab8af05

Apparently the cows actually really don't like it, but it's the sudden change in the timing of the activities of the farmers that bothers them.

Wishbone Ash

seamus wrote: »

This is why I don't buy the "it was for the farmers" explanation. The cows don't know what time it is. If the cows got up in the pitch black today, they're going to get up in the pitch black tomorrow, they're not going to have a lie in because the clocks went back

Farming is not just confined to dairying and livestock. There's tillage also. It's a lot easier to plough, rotovate, plant, spray, harvest, in daylight.

nilhg

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Farming is not just confined to dairying and livestock. There's tillage also. It's a lot easier to plough, rotovate, plant, spray, harvest, in daylight.

Absolutely, I'll vouch for that

Also much easier to organise any sort of club activities with summertime, I don't think most of the (inter)club leagues would be possible without it, unless we moved to 4AM starts in the morning, the roads would be quiet anyway:eek:

atilladehun

07Lapierre wrote: »

Split the difference.whrn the clock is due to go forward for summertime..just move it 30 minutes ahead and leave it there.

Wait, what?! Would that make our news start at 6 and their news start at half 6?

RobertFoster

atilladehun wrote: »

Wait, what?! Would that make our news start at 6 and their news start at half 6?

Won't somebody please think of the Angelus!

magicbastarder

atilladehun wrote: »

Wait, what?! Would that make our news start at 6 and their news start at half 6?

if you think that's bad, check out what the aussies have done.



some of their zones differ by multiples or a quarter hour, and some do daylight savings, but not all.

https://www.timeanddate.com/time/australia/time-zones-background.html

Macy0161

Thanks for the reminder, but a vote for summer time here. I might at least see some daylight during the working week! But definitely will extend the opportunities for family activities that are hampered by winter time, where niether of us are home enough for a big chunk of the year.

plodder

07Lapierre wrote: »

Split the difference.whrn the clock is due to go forward for summertime..just move it 30 minutes ahead and leave it there.

From 1880 to 1916, Dublin Mean time was 25 minutes behind GMT, according to wikipedia.

It doesn't say what they used in Cork, but I imagine it had to be 27 minutes or something :rolleyes:

Macy0161

plodder wrote: »

It doesn't say what they used in Cork, but I imagine it had to be 27 minutes or something :rolleyes:

That reminds me to comment on the survey monkey question about a time difference with the North - I wonder how many "they're 50 years behind as it is" type comments they've got? I know I was tempted before my sensible answer of it doesn't matter, we trade with loads of different time zones already!

greenwaving

Macy0161 wrote: »

That reminds me to comment on the survey monkey question about a time difference with the North - I wonder how many "they're 50 years behind as it is" type comments they've got? I know I was tempted before my sensible answer of it doesn't matter, we trade with loads of different time zones already!

Please don't put that it doesn't matter. It does. For all those who work on one side and live on the other. For the children who attend school/crèche on one side and live on the other. Trade will adapt to the different time zones. But general day-to-day living will become a lot harder to manage for those living on both sides. Maybe they should restrict the commentary on this to those who will live with and understand the impact.

CrowdedHouse

If the UK doesn't change the same as us (probably wont for spite!) a couple of my radio controlled clocks will be useless.

magicbastarder

it's curious that spain is on CET (portugal is not); madrid is further west than london.

maybe it *is* purely down to having longer evenings.

Hurrache

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

If the UK doesn't change the same as us (probably wont for spite!) a couple of my radio controlled clocks will be useless.

It is something I've thought of. I've 3 internet radios throughout the house, no longer supported by the manufacturer. I don't know if they take their time from the network they're connected to, or the server.

Same too with my house alarm, it's programmed to automatically update it's time at the appropriate time. That would require an update, which given it's over 20 years old, won't be happening.

Riskymove

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's curious that spain is on CET (portugal is not); madrid is further west than london.

maybe it *is* purely down to having longer evenings.

Franco wanted to be on same time as his pals further east basically!!

Spain have been arguing about the matter since!

Macy0161

greenwaving wrote: »

Please don't put that it doesn't matter. It does. For all those who work on one side and live on the other. For the children who attend school/crèche on one side and live on the other. Trade will adapt to the different time zones. But general day-to-day living will become a lot harder to manage for those living on both sides. Maybe they should restrict the commentary on this to those who will live with and understand the impact.

I answered based on the effect on me, which is no effect. If it's a concern along the border, then people potentially affected should make their own submission.

However, I'm not really sure it will be any more disruptive overall than different currencies, different laws, metric v imperial speed limits, different tax rates. Even in this state, different schools, even on the same sites, have different start times. It seems something to adjust too, rather than a road block, imo.

homer911

I know people will disagree with me but I think any decision should be influenced by what they decide in mainland Europe. Personally I'd favor using central European time, regardless of what that means..

Fian

seamus wrote: »

This is why I don't buy the "it was for the farmers" explanation. The cows don't know what time it is. If the cows got up in the pitch black today, they're going to get up in the pitch black tomorrow, they're not going to have a lie in because the clocks went back

The cows will get up in line with the daylight. The point about assisting the farmers is that they have no choice but to get up in line with the cows. changing the hour helps keep the daytime in line with their rhythms - so they are getting up at 6 am or whatever rather than 5am. I am not a farmer so although i have a vague feeling they get up "at the crack of dawn" I don't know what actual times they are up and about at.

Havings said all of that: the real reason it was introduced was apparently to cut back on domestic fuel use during WWI (or maybe WW2?).

Hurrache

There's a cow farm over my back wall, and yes, they're usually up at the crack of dawn. However some mornings when I open the curtains they may be all lying down. It could be they've been up already, had their morning walk and breakfast and having a little break afterwards.

So to sum it up, I don't know, I can't work out what time cows get up at. Maybe I'll set up a webcam and stream it here to answer one of life's great questions.

Fian

Personally I would like to see it move to summer time +1 all year round. So an hourforward again from summer time.

I am not a morning person and I couldn't care less about having light at 4:30 am. In fact I do care slightly - but only because if I am unfortunate enough to be awake the sunlight will bother me and impede me getting back to sleep.

Nor do i really care if it is twilight when i am in work in the morning at 9. I don't need to be outdoors except on the commute and commuting in the dark is inevitable in the winter anyway, if not in teh morning then in the evening. In teh evenings though, it is great when the hour moves and it is still daylight out when i get home in the evening.

Light at 8/9/10 in the evening though, that is valuable.

and those arguements that you can just adjust your own patterns are bull - I have to work 9-6 and i can't just make it 6-3 even if i wanted to.

Fian

greenwaving wrote: »

Please don't put that it doesn't matter. It does. For all those who work on one side and live on the other. For the children who attend school/crèche on one side and live on the other. Trade will adapt to the different time zones. But general day-to-day living will become a lot harder to manage for those living on both sides. Maybe they should restrict the commentary on this to those who will live with and understand the impact.

No it impacts all of us. I voted to move to summer time and to do so regardless of whether teh North did it to or not. It is not that i don't recognise there could be an impact on those on teh border, it is just that i don't think the whole country should be out of synch with daylight to avoid that.

and if the DUP have their way they will certainly try not to stay in synch with us here.

Hurrache

greenwaving wrote: »

Maybe they should restrict the commentary on this to those who will live with

So everyone. I also commented in the survey that it does not matter what other jurisdictions do.

greenwaving

Fian wrote: »

No it impacts all of us. I voted to move to summer time and to do so regardless of whether teh North did it to or not. It is not that i don't recognise there could be an impact on those on teh border, it is just that i don't think the whole country should be out of synch with daylight to avoid that.

and if the DUP have their way they will certainly try not to stay in synch with us here.

Hurrache wrote: »

So everyone. I also commented in the survey that it does not matter what other jurisdictions do.

I agree the change impacts everyone. And I of course think that everyone should have the chance to respond. But I do question people commenting specifically on the impact that this will have with the North (which the person I responded to was doing) with sweeping generalisations that "it doesn't matter" when they are unlikely to know the day-to-day impact it will have.

Macy0161 wrote: »

However, I'm not really sure it will be any more disruptive overall than different currencies, different laws, metric v imperial speed limits, different tax rates. Even in this state, different schools, even on the same sites, have different start times. It seems something to adjust too, rather than a road block, imo.

Of course people will adjust. Just as they would to a hard border etc if it came to pass. But that is not to say that it doesn't matter. It will have an impact and quite a significant one - as someone who lives with the border every day I know only too well that it will.

As it happens I would be in favour of the change to summertime but would be very concerned if it happened without the North following suit.

Macy0161

greenwaving wrote: »

Of course people will adjust. Just as they would to a hard border etc if it came to pass. But that is not to say that it doesn't matter. It will have an impact and quite a significant one - as someone who lives with the border every day I know only too well that it will.

But in such a survey, people can only comment on how it will impact them - and if it doesn't matter to them, it doesn't matter to them!

imo it shouldn't be a question full stop on a survey as to what this State should do.

plodder

greenwaving wrote: »

Please don't put that it doesn't matter. It does. For all those who work on one side and live on the other. For the children who attend school/crèche on one side and live on the other. Trade will adapt to the different time zones. But general day-to-day living will become a lot harder to manage for those living on both sides.

Was going to make the same point. Brexit is definitely a complication in this and will be a headache for people who live one side of the border and work on the other. If we drop DST and they don't then there will be a time difference for six months of the year. Speculating even further, if Scotland were to leave the UK, then maybe the rest of the UK wouldn't care about DST as much and they might change. Who knows? There are many permutations of what could happen.

Maybe they should restrict the commentary on this to those who will live with and understand the impact.

Actually, I think this is one of those issues that affects literally everybody and many of us have some idea what the benefits of changing will be, but less understanding of the downsides, which was why I was totally serious in suggesting trialing an entire year of both before committing to one (though again I'd prefer to keep DST). And I'd let the people decide with some kind of vote. Life styles are so diverse nowadays with shift work and the like, that nobody can speak for anyone but themselves.

Also, what concerned me a bit was when I heard one of our MEPs talking about it recently. He was a bit dismissive of the downsides of Summer time, when asked about the effect on kids cycling/walking to school in the mornings. His answer was that most kids are driven to school nowadays. I can't remember his name, but I don't want the decision made (or overly influenced) by him. If it turns out that most people are really in favour of Summer time, then that's fine with me though.

greenwaving

Macy0161 wrote: »

But in such a survey, people can only comment on how it will impact them - and if it doesn't matter to them, it doesn't matter to them!

imo it shouldn't be a question full stop on a survey as to what this State should do.

They can build simple things into the survey design such as collect location data from responders so that responses from those who live on the border about border issues are weighted more heavily. Or change routing/options based on this.

And you as a responder could leave that option blank if it doesn't apply to you. But I do think the main flaw rests with the survey design.

They should of course be collecting information on the impact this will have although I don't think it has been collected in a meaningful manner with this survey. People live in 'this State' and work in the North so even if the opinions of those living in the North were dismissed it is a key consideration imo

terrydel

Hurrache wrote: »

Why would you chose winter time over summer and lose all those evening daylight hours for rides and other sport?

He said he'd prefer to stay as is.

Cee-Jay-Cee

greenwaving wrote: »

Please don't put that it doesn't matter. It does. For all those who work on one side and live on the other. For the children who attend school/cre on one side and live on the other. Trade will adapt to the different time zones. But general day-to-day living will become a lot harder to manage for those living on both sides. Maybe they should restrict the commentary on this to those who will live with and understand the impact.

That argument wont work in regard to children, if you live here you are supposed to go to school here, there is no provision for living in the 26 counties and attend school in the North and that rule is made by the Northern Ireland education board. I know its rife in border areas but you'll find all those children attending school in NI are using their grandparents and relatives addresses in NI so they have zero claim to any argument in that regard.

I am all for absolishing DST and remaining on summer time. I think there is very very little support for remaining on winter time and so if it does come to pass it'll be to remain on summer time.

I can see advantages to having DST but there is absolutely no need for it so early. The first weekend in December and last weekend in January would cover the dead of winter and make more sense rather than the ridiculous 5 months they currently have.

CrowdedHouse

You'd kinda wonder what prompted all this now anyway.

I know it's a bit glib to say surely there are more pressing issues.

Even though many whinge about the clock changing we're used to it.

Personally I'd prefer to leave it as it is.

plodder

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

That argument wont work in regard to children, if you live here you are supposed to go to school here, there is no provision for living in the 26 counties and attend school in the North and that rule is made by the Northern Ireland education board. I know its rife in border areas but you'll find all those children attending school in NI are using their grandparents and relatives addresses in NI so they have zero claim to any argument in that regard.

You could live on one side, your kids go to school the same side, but you work the other, and the hour change could still cause serious disruption, and therefore have some "claim to any argument in that regard".

I am all for absolishing DST and remaining on summer time. I think there is very very little support for remaining on winter time and so if it does come to pass it'll be to remain on summer time.

Again not sure where you're getting that from, but it adds to my belief that this should be decided by a process that gets the greatest amount of informed input as possible.

greenwaving

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

That argument wont work in regard to children, if you live here you are supposed to go to school here, there is no provision for living in the 26 counties and attend school in the North and that rule is made by the Northern Ireland education board. I know its rife in border areas but you'll find all those children attending school in NI are using their grandparents and relatives addresses in NI so they have zero claim to any argument in that regard.

Creches, nurserys, after school childminders can be (and are regularly) accessed either side of the border. Northern Irish children can access schools in the South (I believe - correct me if I am mistaken here). The survey specifically asks for the opinions of those in Northern Ireland as well as the South so it is a valid point regarding the impact.

CrowdedHouse

Is the UK definitely not changing?