RCBO questions please

viper959

This post has been deleted.

2011

Can’t answer fully now as I am very busy. However here are a few pointers:

1) An RCBO is an RCD and an MCB combined into one device. Therefore there is no point in feeding an RCBO from an MCB or an RCD.

2) It is best to have lighting fed from a dedicated lighting circuit. It can be CS from a socket circuit under some circumstances but this is best avoided.

3) The neutral for the RCBO should be fed from the main neutral bar, not the RCD neutral bar.

4) All conductors in circuit should be sized such that the upstream protective device will protect them. In a domestic DB this will generally mean that a 16mm sq. is a good size to feed the RCBO phase with as the upstream device is rated for 63A (I am generalizing here so you need to check).

2011

5) Type B just refers to the characteristic of the MCB component of the RCBO. Generally a type B is used in domestic installations for most circuits. A type C is more for industrial and if everything else were equal it requires a lower earth fault loop impedance to achieve the same disconnection time.

6) Some RCBOs come with a flying lead. On the ones I have seen the neutral supply to the RCBO is prewired in a suitably rated cable. All you need to do is terminate this into the neutral bar.

7) If installing several RCBOs it is best to link the supply side with a suitable bus bar. Much neater, more compact and overall a better job. The ones I have used have phase and neutral bars thy align perfectly with the RCBO supply side. There is a 3 phase + N version available too.

Luckysasha

Your obviously not an electrician so you cant install anything on your fuseboard so no point going any further with this conversation. Get a registered electrician end of discussion

viper959

This post has been deleted.

Luckysasha

Just getting a bit fed up of the DIY electrician coming on here with their obvious lack of basic knowledge looking for advice on doing a job that has the potential to kill them. Do you understand the basic concept of how dangerous electricity really is ? Do you ever stop to think of the consequences of tampering with something like a fuseboard can have. Or does it not matter to you as long as you save a rew quid ? I have lost track of the amount of house fires i have attended where DIY electrics where to blame and if you do spot something in time and alert the homeowner you get the generic reply of “oh my mate said it would be ok “. Wake up and do yourself a favour get off google and you tube and hire a professional

viper959

This post has been deleted.

Tuco88

Well im all for the giving advice. But with respect OP if you have doubt at all you really should get a RECI in or at least an Electrician ��, Luckysasha has a point here.

10mm^2 panel flex should be fine.
Live to bottom of RCBO, Main Neutral to bottom of RCBO.
New circuit in the top, Live for lights and Neutral for lights.
Earth is common.

The circuit should really be tested then. Just because it comes on means nothing.
Best of luck.

Bruthal

Luckysasha wrote: »

Just getting a bit fed up of the DIY electrician coming on here with their obvious lack of basic knowledge

From what I've seen lately, there Is not much difference between qualified and diy persons in some cases.

tomplate

Bruthal wrote: »

From what I've seen lately, there Is not much difference between qualified and diy persons in some cases.

The standard of electrician is quite poor in general.The background of many electricians was a poor education and a low IQ and it showed.

I seen it myself lads getting through apprenticeship that shouldn't be let near a job

Same with training courses , electricians getting through the verification and certification course that should be failed.

Bruthal

Tuco88 wrote: »

Luckysasha has a point here.

It was a bit harsh I thought. I know some in the forum dont want anyone except RECs to exist these days. But no questions unless you are a REC and we would see a few obvious thankers id say.

2011

A couple of points:

This is a discussion forum for all matters electrical. We want to encourage discussion and debate, not stifle it. None of us know it all!

Too many people in the industry are afraid to ask questions because they feel they will be exposed. Time and time again experienced people (including some that post on this forum) do not understand some basic principles or regulations and they pretend that they do. Even when proved wrong they won't admit it (I had a PM about that this evening).

Most experienced electricians that are honest will admit to the following:

● They felt that they didn't know nearly enough the day they qualified.
● Most of their learning was after they qualified.
● How good they turned out to be as an electrician was in a large part due to who they were trained by.
● The standard of apprenticeship varies considerably.
● Domestic electricians and industrial electricians have very little in common.
● A great maintenance electrician can be terrible at installation work and vice versa.

I suspect the OP is a sparks. Most electricians become proficient only in the areas that they have worked in. It could be the case that the OP is highly proficient in other aspects of the electrical industry. The questions asked by the OP should not be considered as a reflection his / her ability or lack thereof. I have far more respect for someone that asks questions and learns than for someone that pretends to know, remains ignorant and hides behind regulations.

As has been demonstrated here more than once, nobody is infallible not even RECs!

Tuco88

Bruthal wrote: »

It was a bit harsh I thought. I know some in the forum dont want anyone except RECs to exist these days. But no questions unless you are a REC and we would see a few obvious thankers id say.

Well im not one to not give advise on here. I'll help if I can I have gotten so much info from boards it should go both ways imo.

He could have been more polite about it I agree.

But I wouldn't go near the breaks of my car if I didnt know the difference between a brake pad or disc. The OP couldn't really tell the difference between a rcd and rcbo?

I am not a rec, id just view a bit of concern with the advise as I have done.

tomplate

2011 wrote: »

A couple of points:

This is a discussion forum for all matters electrical. We want to encourage discussion and debate, not stifle it. None of us know it all!

Too many people in the industry are afraid to ask questions because they feel they will be exposed. Time and time again experienced people (including some that post on this forum) do not understand some basic principles or regulations and they pretend that they do. Even when proved wrong they won't admit it (I had a PM about that this evening).

Most experienced electricians that are honest will admit to the following:

● They felt that they didn't know nearly enough the day they qualified.
● Most of their learning was after they qualified.
● How good they turned out to be as an electrician was in a large part due to who they were trained by.
● The standard of apprenticeship varies considerably.
● Domestic electricians and industrial electricians have very little in common.
● A great maintenance electrician can be terrible at installation work and vice versa.

I suspect the OP is a sparks. Most electricians become proficient only in the areas that they have worked in. It could be the case that the OP is highly proficient in other aspects of the electrical industry. The questions asked by the OP should not be considered as a reflection his / her ability or lack thereof. I have far more respect for someone that asks questions and learns than for someone that pretends to know, remains ignorant and hides behind regulations.

As has been demonstrated here more than once, nobody is infallible not even RECs!

i've lost count of the number of people claiming to be industrial electricians


so therefore they don't understand how to wire rcds or understand their operation

Bruthal

Tuco88 wrote: »

Well im not one to not give advise on here. I'll help if I can I have gotten so much info from boards it should go both ways imo.

He could have been more polite about it I agree.

But I wouldn't go near the breaks of my car if I didnt know the difference between a brake pad or disc.

No. But you might ask questions about them, once you dont have to worry about being laughed at which depends on whether the person is helpful and understanding.

The OP couldn't really tell the difference between a rcd and rcbo?

He seemed to know what and RCBO was, and asked if a 10a one was available, I think he asked is it put in series with RCD, and answered his own question by saying "I`m thinking no"

I am not a rec, id just view a bit of concern with the advise as I have done.

Ive an inbox with a fair few questions like those from posters from the time I started here. Mostly motors, dol starters etc. Not many on RCDs funny enough.

Tuco88

An Industral Electrician... A title used by many to make one sound better.

It will come in two forms...

A) Exactly that, an industral electrican.

B)All I do is wait for permits, pull cable and do containment.

A) Will let his work do the talking.

Bruthal

Tuco88 wrote: »

An Industral Electrician... A title used by many to make one sound better.

It will come in two forms...

A) Exactly that, an industral electrican.

B)All I do is wait for permits, pull cable and do containment.

A) Will let his work do the talking.

After he gets his permit. It can be quite a wait in some places.

Tuco88

Bruthal wrote: »

No. But you might ask questions about them, once you dont have to worry about being laughed at which depends on whether the person is helpful and understanding.

Indeed I would. And I have asked im sure many, many a silly question on here.

A man that never made a mistake never made anything.

But if you don't add the "If you're not this use a REC that" here you'll end up getting flak on both sides.

Bruthal

Tuco88 wrote: »

But if you don't add the "If you're not this use a REC that" here you'll end up getting flak on both sides.

Yes indeed.

EHP

It is against the law for anyone other than a REC to work on a domestic board.

Giving advise etc here is fine but is advising someone to break the law and probably put themselves and others in danger ok. It sounds like the op is not a REC I wouldn't think he is even an electrician but he can clarify this if he wants.

2011

EHP wrote: »

It is against the law for anyone other than a REC to work on a domestic board.

Yes, this is covered in the charter.

Giving advise etc here is fine

Exactly.

but is advising someone to break the law and probably put themselves and others in danger ok.

If you see someone advising someone else to do something illegal please report it to a mod.

In this case you don’t know for sure:
1) That the installation is domestic (so a REC may not be legally required)
2) Who will physically be doing the work.
3) If the OP is an electrician or not.
4) If the OP is a REC or not.
5) If the OP is working for a REC or not.

Thanks to a PM from the OP I know that he is doing nothing illegal.

Bruthal

EHP wrote: »

It is against the law for anyone other than a REC to work on a domestic board.

Giving advise etc here is fine but is advising someone to break the law and probably put themselves and others in danger ok. It sounds like the op is not a REC I wouldn't think he is even an electrician but he can clarify this if he wants.

Its noticable that incompetent lads becoming RECs still remained incompetent. How did that happen? Never mind who they employ to do the work. Legal and safe are not always =

Not that we need another discussion on it all. But it is more vested interest than safety concerns I suspect with most.

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

Legal and safe are not always =

This statement sums it all up.

But it is more vested interest than safety concerns I suspect with most.

+1
“Safepass” is a great example of this.

Stoner

Tuco88 wrote: »

I'll help if I can I have gotten so much info from boards it should go both ways imo.

This.

Batzoo

Not looking to derail the thread, but it looks like it was already derailed. I know there are various organizations that introduced guides that became regulations and standards for electrical installations over the years. I know the CER have had people convicted and jailed for doing electrical work without certification and I have seen reference to the illegality of working on fuseboards without proper certification.

But can anyone point me in the direction of the actual Irish legislation relating to fuseboards that would get someone convicted.
Like if I connect an MCB to my fuse board and run a wire to a light in my garage are the guards gonna kick my door in at 6am and throw me in mountjoy when the local RECI guy finds out and reports me. Even if the install is to a higher spec and quality and safety standard than he would have been legally required to do, but remains uncertified because I am uninsured and so on.


edit*
Just for clarity I don't doubt the existence, I am just having a hard time finding it on legal sites. Only find references to the illegality on electrical standards sites without any links to sources. I just need to see the legislation so I can prepare my defense in advance.

2011

@ Batzoo:

1) The OP is doing work on this board legally. I know this as he outlined the circumstances to me by PM.

2) If the work is on your own house the risk of prosecution is remote. Even if you were reported it would be difficult to proof. This doesn’t mean that there should be a free for all, it’s just the way it is. There are few electricians that would pay someone to do electrical work on their own home.

3) Many (myself included) do not believe that this has anything to do with safety. The real reason seems to be to cut down on the “nixer merchants" which results in a loss of tax revenue for the government. Why do we think this? It only applies to domestic installation work. Not only have industrial sites far more complicated electrical systems but a higher risk profile. Also self certification is a joke. This has always been a problem, if the authorities were serious about safety this would not be permitted. The workmanship by a minority of RECs is still not where it should be and this is likely to remain the case for as long as they are permitted to assess their own work.

The above should not be interpreted as encouragement to break the law, its not! In my opinion electrical work should only be carried out by suitably qualified and experienced people. Whether an electrician is registered or not has no impact on the quality of their work regardless of what vested interests will tell you. Think of it as a club that anyone can join once they pay the fee.

Batzoo

2011 wrote: »

@ Batzoo:

1) The OP is doing work on this board legally. I know this as he outlined the circumstances to me by PM....

...Think of it as a club that anyone can join once they pay the fee.

I agree with everything you say there. Certification of safety for work done is not a bad thing, but should not be done by the guy doing the work. This is a silly system (self certification).

And I know the likely hood of getting arrested for doing your own simple jobs is slim to none. But doing it, and charging someone for it is potentially dangerous and may leave you liable if an accident ensues, hence insurance is required, but insurance also need some proof of ability so RECI is required and so on. This is all fine and I have no issues with the system beyond self certification.

But are you aware of a specific legislation that deals with this, not like the trade descriptions act where someone does a nixer and claims to be RECI certified when they are not. An actual legislation that I can look at that in some way has reference to touching domestic fuseboards. I understand there are regulations and guidelines but are they in statute?

2011

Batzoo wrote: »

But are you aware of a specific legislation that deals with this, not like the trade descriptions act where someone does a nixer and claims to be RECI certified when they are not.

Have a look at the charter. There are some links there. Failing thy try the CRU website.

2011

Just to add, pretending to be RECI register when not would be taken very seriously.

Batzoo

2011 wrote: »

Just to add, pretending to be RECI register when not would be taken very seriously.

And so it should be, otherwise RECI would be pointless.

The charter contains a link that leads to these...
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1999/act/23/enacted/en/html

And the 2006 ammendment...

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/act/40/enacted/en/html

This is what I was looking for, Thanks for your help.