Dog training methods

AryaStark

I am thinking of doing some dog training with my dog - he is 1 and starting to get very strong! He is a collie/husky mix (although he came from the pound and a lot of people think he looks like German Shepard).

I had been looking at a trainer and was about to book lessons. Ive looked at his online profile and seen him putting up videos where he is training a dog to attack - he is wearing something on his arm so the dog can bite and not hurt him and he is shouting and stressing the dog to get it to attack him... this is not a security dog training facility.

I am now turned right off this trainer... is this normal behaviour to be teaching dogs? I find it very unfair on the dog and really don't like this type of training... am I kidding myself that there are trainers who don't teach this stuff?

Rows Grower

This is not normal at all.

The vast majority, as in 99.99% of dog trainers wouldn't dream of training a dog to attack.

AryaStark

Rows Grower wrote: »

This is not normal at all.

The vast majority, as in 99.99% of dog trainers wouldn't dream of training a dog to attack.

Thank You! It looks so bad I don't get it... this trainer does classes for all dogs including puppy classes. He also seems to have good reviews. I won't be using him but was worried that maybe this is training that is done with any trainer!

Richard tea

OP it sounds like the trainer teaches ipo schutzhund. Its a sport and I believe its great for working line dogs etc. Google it and then decide if its for you or not. It doesnt mean he would use these methods on your dog. Certainly not bite work anyway. The best trainers worldwide have a background in IPO and schutzhund.

AryaStark

Richard tea wrote: »

OP it sounds like the trainer teaches ipo schutzhund. Its a sport and I believe its great for working line dogs etc. Google it and then decide if its for you or not. It doesnt mean he would use these methods on your dog. Certainly not bite work anyway. The best trainers worldwide have a background in IPO and schutzhund.

Ok thanks Ill have a look

The video is captioned 'Nobody will mess with X now' and the guy is wearing a scarf over his face/hood up seems to be intimidating the dog.

Anyway I will look up ipo schutzhund but I am sceptical!

So I just had a quick look and it could have been that ... the protection side of it anyway.. Not something I like or would do but thats just me! Thanks for clearing it up!

DBB

Richard tea wrote: »

The best trainers worldwide have a background in IPO and schutzhund.

I know a lot of excellent, qualified, experienced dog trainers worldwide. I can't think of one of them with a background in IPO/Schutzhund! I'm sure some of the best trainers worldwide do have a background in IPO, but your assertion seems to be saying that a trainer can't be the best unless they have such a background! That's simply not right.

OP, yes, people who are good at competitive ANYTHING with dogs are, by definition, good at teaching dogs to do things. But... and this is critically important to understand... This does not necessarily mean that the training methods they use are ethical or as effective as they could be.
Using punitive training techniques can be very effective in getting certain desired behaviours established, but, the side-effects and problems that offshoot from using force, coercion, and fear to establish behaviours can be terrible, and are, in my experience, ALWAYS under-reported and played down by the trainers that use them. We only see the dogs that can tolerate harsher training on these videos... We don't get to see the basket cases that have been turned into scared, distrustful dogs because of the way they've been handled and trained.
I'm sure there are protection dog trainers out there who use dog-friendly, ethical, well-informed training techniques to achieve behaviours like what you watched on the video, but... In my experience at least, they are few and far between, in Ireland at least. Every single protection dog trainer that I have come across in my dog training career in Ireland has fallen well short of the mark in what I'd want for my dog in terms of how it's trained to do the stuff I want my dog to do, and the trainers have a crushing lack of understanding of how dogs learn. In fact, this has been my experience of several categories of dog trainers.

There are lots of super trainers in Ireland who aren't into protection training... They specialise is pet dog training, and they embrace dog-friendly, research-led training techniques. Have a look at the Association of Pet Dog Trainers Ireland website (www.apdt.ie) where you'll find a county by county list of who is where, and what their credentials are. Every one of them has been rigorously assessed to make sure they have the skills, knowledge and experience to train pet dogs and their owners

Rows Grower

DBB wrote: »

I know a lot of excellent, qualified, experienced dog trainers worldwide. I can't think of one of them with a background in IPO/Schutzhund! I'm sure some of the best trainers worldwide do have a background in IPO, but your assertion seems to be saying that a trainer can't be the best unless they have such a background! That's simply not right.

OP, yes, people who are good at competitive ANYTHING with dogs are, by definition, good at teaching dogs to do things. But... and this is critically important to understand... This does not necessarily mean that the training methods they use are ethical or as effective as they could be.
Using punitive training techniques can be very effective in getting certain desired behaviours established, but, the side-effects and problems that offshoot from using force, coercion, and fear to establish behaviours can be terrible, and are, in my experience, ALWAYS under-reported and played down by the trainers that use them. We only see the dogs that can tolerate harsher training on these videos... We don't get to see the basket cases that have been turned into scared, distrustful dogs because of the way they've been handled and trained.
I'm sure there are protection dog trainers out there who use dog-friendly, ethical, well-informed training techniques to achieve behaviours like what you watched on the video, but... In my experience at least, they are few and far between, in Ireland at least. Every single protection dog trainer that I have come across in my dog training career in Ireland has fallen well short of the mark in what I'd want for my dog in terms of how it's trained to do the stuff I want my dog to do, and the trainers have a crushing lack of understanding of how dogs learn. In fact, this has been my experience of several categories of dog trainers.

There are lots of super trainers in Ireland who aren't into protection training... They specialise is pet dog training, and they embrace dog-friendly, research-led training techniques. Have a look at the Association of Pet Dog Trainers Ireland website (www.apdt.ie) where you'll find a county by county list of who is where, and what their credentials are. Every one of them has been rigorously assessed to make sure they have the skills, knowledge and experience to train pet dogs and their owners

Great post.

AryaStark

DBB wrote: »

I know a lot of excellent, qualified, experienced dog trainers worldwide. I can't think of one of them with a background in IPO/Schutzhund! I'm sure some of the best trainers worldwide do have a background in IPO, but your assertion seems to be saying that a trainer can't be the best unless they have such a background! That's simply not right.

OP, yes, people who are good at competitive ANYTHING with dogs are, by definition, good at teaching dogs to do things. But... and this is critically important to understand... This does not necessarily mean that the training methods they use are ethical or as effective as they could be.
Using punitive training techniques can be very effective in getting certain desired behaviours established, but, the side-effects and problems that offshoot from using force, coercion, and fear to establish behaviours can be terrible, and are, in my experience, ALWAYS under-reported and played down by the trainers that use them. We only see the dogs that can tolerate harsher training on these videos... We don't get to see the basket cases that have been turned into scared, distrustful dogs because of the way they've been handled and trained.
I'm sure there are protection dog trainers out there who use dog-friendly, ethical, well-informed training techniques to achieve behaviours like what you watched on the video, but... In my experience at least, they are few and far between, in Ireland at least. Every single protection dog trainer that I have come across in my dog training career in Ireland has fallen well short of the mark in what I'd want for my dog in terms of how it's trained to do the stuff I want my dog to do, and the trainers have a crushing lack of understanding of how dogs learn. In fact, this has been my experience of several categories of dog trainers.

There are lots of super trainers in Ireland who aren't into protection training... They specialise is pet dog training, and they embrace dog-friendly, research-led training techniques. Have a look at the Association of Pet Dog Trainers Ireland website (www.apdt.ie) where you'll find a county by county list of who is where, and what their credentials are. Every one of them has been rigorously assessed to make sure they have the skills, knowledge and experience to train pet dogs and their owners

Thanks for this... very informative and more along the lines of what I had was thinking.
I had a bad experience with another trainer when my other dog was young.. (now she is trained perfectly ) so I am nervous of trying somebody new.
With her we were able to do most of the training but Gandalf is getting big and is quite strong - he will listen to training a lot of the time but we cannot get him to stop playing and jumping up when he is over excited! And he constantly wants to play fighting with our older girl (only 5!) and when she gets sick of him he doesn't read the signals good and keeps at her.

muddypaws

I know an excellent positive reinforcement trainer who does IPO work and training but she doesn't shout at the dogs to get them worked up.

DBB

muddypaws wrote: »

I know an excellent positive reinforcement trainer who does IPO work and training but she doesn't shout at the dogs to get them worked up.

I thought of her just before you posted! She's a rare diamond in Ireland.

The issue is that many coercive trainers are okay once things are going okay. It's when the dog doesn't perform as expected that the poop hits the fan for the dog, because this is when the punishment and aversive stuff gets utilised by trainers who don't have a great grasp of how learning works.
There are LOTS of self declared "positive" trainers about who reward dogs for getting it right. It's what they do when the dog doesn't get it right that tells you whether they're actually a positive trainer in the real sense. This is a vital thing for owners to ask about if they want to employ a trainer.

Dubs1990

DBB wrote: »

I thought of her just before you posted! She's a rare diamond in Ireland.

The issue is that many coercive trainers are okay once things are going okay. It's when the dog doesn't perform as expected that the poop hits the fan for the dog, because this is when the punishment and aversive stuff gets utilised by trainers who don't have a great grasp of how learning works.
There are LOTS of self declared "positive" trainers about who reward dogs for getting it right. It's what they do when the dog doesn't get it right that tells you whether they're actually a positive trainer in the real sense. This is a vital thing for owners to ask about if they want to employ a trainer.

Could you pm me her name please , always wanted to do this with my shepherd but hated the way IPO is trained in most places here. None of it was positive reinforcement.

Dubs1990

muddypaws wrote: »

I know an excellent positive reinforcement trainer who does IPO work and training but she doesn't shout at the dogs to get them worked up.

HI Muddypaws, can't seem to send u a pm your inbox seems to full !! Any chance you could pm the name of this lady ! Thanks a mill !