Legal requirement to have a passport

ThrowAway0421

Mods: Please move if in incorrect forum.

Recently started a new job with an Irish financial services company. As part of their onboarding requirements, they asked for a copy of my passport. When I stated that I ddn't have one (genuinely don't have one), they said that they were required by Irish law to have a copy of my passport. The exact reasoning was to prove that I had permission to work in Ireland, and that only an Irish passport would be sufficient. I did offer them my driver's licence (paper copy), as well as my DESP card, but they said that these couldn't prove I had permission to work in Ireland.

Now, from my understanding of Irish law, there is no requirement for any citizen, at least, to have, or carry, any form of national identity card, or passport. Further, the documents I did produce are both issued by Irish Government Departments or their agencies, and carry sufficient information to determine that I am Irish and have permission to work in the country.

With regards to the passport issue, I used to have a passport, but I never renewed it after my 18th birthday (and subsequently returned it to DFAT). Since then, I have not thought of getting one, as I have not desire or need to travel outside of Ireland. This is mainly due to number of medical conditions which make travel difficult (even getting to work is difficult).

I guess my questions are:
* Is my understanding right, in terms of requirements (or lack thereof) to carry ID?
* Is my employer right that only a passport will suffice to prove that I have the right to work in Ireland (even if I am Irish)?
* Is there any other form of ID, barring a passport, that I can produce to give them, in order to prove I am allowed to work here?

ohnonotgmail

They are looking for proof that you have the right to work in Ireland. A driving licence or DSP card doesnt do that.

Under His Eye

If you can prove you are an Irish Citizen, then you are covered.

Birth cert coupled with other ID should suffice.

ArrBee

As they require it, get them to pay for your passport renewal.

seamus

Short answer is that no, they are not required to obtain a copy of your passport.

But the legal, arse-covering position advises all employers to get a copy of the employee's passport. If INIS were to come down and start looking for proof that their employees are entitled to work in Ireland, they could be in trouble if they haven't been checking. Because the law requires that every employer verifies an employees' right to work in Ireland.

Your expired passport is sufficient proof (your citizenship doesn't expire), but people often have real difficulty accepting expired ID even though it's still perfectly fit for purpose.

Saving that, your birth cert is also sufficient proof.*

However, take a look at the contract of employment that they provided to you. They may have specified in this contract that they require your passport when you start. In which case, you have no choice except to go get yours renewed.

*Though in future this too will become a problem sin*ce any Irish birth cert first issued after 2005 is not in isolation proof that you are Irish.

ThrowAway0421

seamus wrote: »

Short answer is that no, they are not required to obtain a copy of your passport. [/size]

seamus wrote: »

Your expired passport is sufficient proof (your citizenship doesn't expire), but people often have real difficulty accepting expired ID even though it's still perfectly fit for purpose.[/size]

I no longer have the passport. I sent back my underage passport about 30 years ago, and haven't had one since.

seamus wrote: »

Saving that, your birth cert is also sufficient proof.*[/size]

I did ask about my birth certificate, but they said that since it is not photo ID, they can't accept it.

seamus wrote: »

However, take a look at the contract of employment that they provided to you. They may have specified in this contract that they require your passport when you start.[/size]

Nothing in my contract says a word about having to prove I'm Irish, or having to produce a passport. It does say that I need to provide ID, and lists "passport, national ID card, or other state produced identification". On my DL, it does say my pace of birth is Ireland, and has my DoB as being before the changes in 2005.

Any suggestions on how to resolve this issue, without having to spend the time, effort, and money (which is in short supply) to get a passport? Are there any other valid forms of ID, in Ireland, that would show my nationality?

ohnonotgmail

ThrowAway0421 wrote: »

I no longer have the passport. I sent back my underage passport about 30 years ago, and haven't had one since.



I did ask about my birth certificate, but they said that since it is not photo ID, they can't accept it.



Nothing in my contract says a word about having to prove I'm Irish, or having to produce a passport. It does say that I need to provide ID, and lists "passport, national ID card, or other state produced identification". On my DL, it does say my pace of birth is Ireland, and has my DoB as being before the changes in 2005.

Any suggestions on how to resolve this issue, without having to spend the time, effort, and money (which is in short supply) to get a passport? Are there any other valid forms of ID, in Ireland, that would show my nationality?

Do you have a public services card?

Victor

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Do you have a public services card?

OP refers to "DESP card", however, this doesn't indicate nationality to an employer.

BattleCorp

Personally I wouldn't want to rock the boat so soon after starting a new job so I think I'd spend the €80 and get a passport. It's a nuisance but not an insurmountable problem.

As an aside, it's funny that your birth cert is acceptable to our Government to get a passport but not acceptable for your employer.

L1011

An Irish driving licence issued to someone born pre-05 can show an entitlement to Irish citizenship and should be sufficient. Are they actually Irish or UK owned? UK firms love paperwork grabs

Marcusm

ThrowAway0421 wrote: »

I no longer have the passport. I sent back my underage passport about 30 years ago, and haven't had one since.



I did ask about my birth certificate, but they said that since it is not photo ID, they can't accept it.



Nothing in my contract says a word about having to prove I'm Irish, or having to produce a passport. It does say that I need to provide ID, and lists "passport, national ID card, or other state produced identification". On my DL, it does say my pace of birth is Ireland, and has my DoB as being before the changes in 2005.

Any suggestions on how to resolve this issue, without having to spend the time, effort, and money (which is in short supply) to get a passport? Are there any other valid forms of ID, in Ireland, that would show my nationality?

That should be adequate proof; however, your employer has taken short cuts in requiring a passport as only acceptable proof in order to limit staff training/empowerment. You should decide whether it’s easier to go with the flow and obtain a passport or continue to stand out. Only you have sufficient information to decide which is the better course of action.

Marcusm

L1011 wrote: »

An Irish driving licence issued to someone born pre-05 can show an entitlement to Irish citizenship and should be sufficient. Are they actually Irish or UK owned? UK firms love paperwork grabs

Theoretically a person born pre 2005 to an official of an overseas Embassy would not have Irish citizenship. (In such circs, the combo of Dl, birth cert and a sentient admin would solve this issue.). Obviously this would be highly unusual but if the employer is that restrictive, it’s often easier to fulfil their requirements than to educate them.

L1011

Marcusm wrote: »

Theoretically a person born pre 2005 to an official of an overseas Embassy would not have Irish citizenship. (In such circs, the combo of Dl, birth cert and a sentient admin would solve this issue.). Obviously this would be highly unusual but if the employer is that restrictive, it’s often easier to fulfil their requirements than to educate them.

Their licence won't have a county on it though...

As goes causing trouble - the employer is the one causing the trouble, not the employee.

A renewal in this case won't be quick, few weeks - could be some fun if they refuse payment on this spurious basis

ThrowAway0421

To answer some of the questions above, and PMs:

1) The company is Irish owned.
2) I have offered the DESP card, as well as DL, and birth certificate.
3) Employer won't accept any of those, and says there is specific Irish legislation that says that the only way to provide you are entitled to work in Ireland is a passport. They quoted the Employment Permits Act (sic), which I don't think covers the situation.
4) I've asked them to revert to their legal counsel, who drew up these rules, but that could take a few days.

As a final (insert choice words here) they have also said that I should go to INIS, and ask for a letter stating that I am allowed work in Ireland!!!!

seamus

ThrowAway0421 wrote: »

3) Employer won't accept any of those, and says there is specific Irish legislation that says that the only way to provide you are entitled to work in Ireland is a passport. They quoted the Employment Permits Act (sic), which I don't think covers the situation.
4) I've asked them to revert to their legal counsel, who drew up these rules, but that could take a few days.

What's happening here is that there is a chicken-and-egg issue created by the Employment Permits Act.

It is an offence to hire a non-national without a permit. Fairly straightforward.

The employment permits act explicitly states that if you are charged with the offence of hiring someone without a permit, that
"It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (3) consisting of a contravention of subsection (1) to show that he or she took all such steps as were reasonably open to him or her to ensure compliance with subsection (1)"

This is where the chicken-and-egg issue comes up. If your employee is Irish, this doesn't apply. You do not have to take any steps to ensure compliance.

But how you can ensure that your employee is Irish, without taking all steps that are reasonably open to ensure compliance.

Or to put it another way - from your employer's point of view, if INIS were to arrive on the premises and tell them that you are not entitled to work in Ireland, then their claims that they looked at your birth cert and your DSP card would likely be irrelevant. INIS would ask whether they checked your passport, the employer would say "No", and they're boned.

This is never going to happen because you're Irish, but your employer can't prove it.

So then it becomes the standard legal advice - getting a passport copy from everyone, is the only way to ensure that you won't fall foul of the employment permits act.

I do think you're onto a loser here tbh. You've just started in a new company and you've asked them to revert to their legal counsel on a matter of company practice. Unless your actual area of expertise is employment law, then you've a reputation as a troublemaker.

If you continue to disagree with the policy and refuse to provide your passport, the company can terminate your employment. It's worth remembering that.

ThrowAway0421

seamus wrote: »

If you continue to disagree with the policy and refuse to provide your passport

However, as I said in the OP, I don't have a passport.

I rang a friend in INIS this morning, who said that they don't provide any documentation for Irish citizens, however, that is their unofficial position, and I should write to them to confirm that that is their position.

Not worried about losing my job, as they headhunted me from a rival company, waited nearly 6 months for my notice/gardening leave to expire, and contract has a very generous severance package.

seamus

I've never seen a contract that allows for severance to be paid if you're terminated in the first six months. And HR often have a serious amount of pull on these things. But if you're that confident, so be it.

Tbh, my advice would be to meet them halfway on this. I don't understand your resistance to getting a passport. If nothing else it means you could take a foreign holiday at short notice.

Tell them you'll apply for the passport, but they're just going to have to calm their tits because it could take a few weeks for it to come through.

BattleCorp

ThrowAway0421 wrote: »

Not worried about losing my job, as they headhunted me from a rival company, waited nearly 6 months for my notice/gardening leave to expire, and contract has a very generous severance package.

If the company were willing to wait for you for six months, I'm guessing that you aren't exactly getting paid minimum wage.

Pay the feckin €80 for the passport and get on with your career before you shoot yourself in the foot.

Misguided1

ThrowAway0421 wrote: »

To answer some of the questions above, and PMs:


3) Employer won't accept any of those, and says there is specific Irish legislation that says that the only way to provide you are entitled to work in Ireland is a passport. They quoted the Employment Permits Act (sic), which I don't think covers the situation.


As a final (insert choice words here) they have also said that I should go to INIS, and ask for a letter stating that I am allowed work in Ireland!!!!

They are required to have evidence that you can legally work in Ireland. This is what is provided for under the Act I suspect. In the absence of you having a work permit, stamp 4 etc. (which would demonstrate this) they need your passport.

Going to INIS would be cheaper than getting a passport so decide which you prefer. Either way - they want a photo idea with evidence of your right to work in Ireland.

stinkbomb

It doesn't even make any sense, I don't have an Irish passport but I am fully able to work legally in Ireland. A requirement to provide an Irish passport would be inherently discriminatory

L1011

stinkbomb wrote: »

It doesn't even make any sense, I don't have an Irish passport but I am fully able to work legally in Ireland. A requirement to provide an Irish passport would be inherently discriminatory

An EEA passport or visa would also be accepted, the issue here is the OP has no other requirement to hold a passport, not that it's specifically an Irish one needed

stinkbomb

OP said they were told that "Only an Irish passport is sufficient", ergo another EU passport is not.

Victor

Are there reasons you can't hold a passport, e.g. you are currently on bail?

ohnonotgmail

stinkbomb wrote: »

OP said they were told that "Only an Irish passport is sufficient", ergo another EU passport is not.

Presumably they asked for an irish passport because the OP told them he is irish.

Marcusm

L1011 wrote: »

Their licence won't have a county on it though...

As goes causing trouble - the employer is the one causing the trouble, not the employee.

A renewal in this case won't be quick, few weeks - could be some fun if they refuse payment on this spurious basis

I meant a person born in Ireland whose parents work in a foreign embassy in Ireland. I realise my use of “overseas” was confusing.

Marcusm

ThrowAway0421 wrote: »

To answer some of the questions above, and PMs:

1) The company is Irish owned.
2) I have offered the DESP card, as well as DL, and birth certificate.
3) Employer won't accept any of those, and says there is specific Irish legislation that says that the only way to provide you are entitled to work in Ireland is a passport. They quoted the Employment Permits Act (sic), which I don't think covers the situation.
4) I've asked them to revert to their legal counsel, who drew up these rules, but that could take a few days.

As a final (insert choice words here) they have also said that I should go to INIS, and ask for a letter stating that I am allowed work in Ireland!!!!

This is definitely muppetry on the part of the person interpreting the requirements. So much so that I would worry that they’ll never back down.

ezra_

seamus wrote: »

... but they're just going to have to calm their tits because it could take a few weeks for it to come through.

This is why I love Seamus' postings on boards.

Intelligent, on-point, extremely clear while still being down the kids.

ThrowAway0421

Victor wrote: »

Are there reasons you can't hold a passport, e.g. you are currently on bail?

No reason. Just don't have a need or want for it

mdebets

Doesn't your PPS number keep track of what you are allowed to do workwise in Ireland?

Under His Eye

Nope.

A PPS number by itself is no use for work purposes. They can be issued to non residents to collect inheritances/buy property.

nailer54321

Makeing a mountain out of a mould hill, just get a passport and get on with your life.

Fann Linn

Times like these that a National Identity card is required.

am i bovvered

ThrowAway0421 wrote: »

No reason. Just don't have a need or want for it

It seems you do have a need for it on this occasion.
First world problem, just get the passport and get on with your life.

L1011

Fann Linn wrote: »

Times like these that a National Identity card is required.

No thanks.

PSC is effectively that anyway, I can probably get away without having one until I qualify for free transport in a few decades, seeing as I have my passport and full licence for some time now.

Fann Linn

L1011 wrote: »

No thanks.

PSC is effectively that anyway, I can probably get away without having one until I qualify for free transport in a few decades, seeing as I have my passport and full licence for some time now.

The banks won't even accept the PSC as id.

L1011

Fann Linn wrote: »

The banks won't even accept the PSC as id.

Vastly more easily fixed in legislation than bringing in a national ID card is.

Ursus Horribilis

Are you on probation? It's just that this sounds like a silly thing to dig your heels in about when you're barely in the door of your new job. It could prove to be a costly €80 for you, especially if this escalates and you make a name for yourself as an intransigent individual. Just go apply for the thing and be done with it. It's not "that" big a deal ffs. Also, you might need it if your company wants to send you abroad on business.

Heart Break Kid

L1011 wrote: »

Vastly more easily fixed in legislation than bringing in a national ID card is.

As someone who’s issued PSCs to around 5k people in north Dublin. I can tell you that details to get a PSC card can get very light.

Some people can’t afford a passport or are not allowed to own a drivers license. Some may not have bills as they don’t have a permanent residence.

The only form of ID they may have is a birth certificate which I’d consider easy enough to get by dropping down to Pearce street.

They do check social welfare payments along with additional security questions but I find it interesting for any entity to consider the PSC as a valid form of ID. I do consider it better than the PPS card

Charles Babbage

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Are you on probation? It's just that this sounds like a silly thing to dig your heels in about when you're barely in the door of your new job. It could prove to be a costly €80 for you, especially if this escalates and you make a name for yourself as an intransigent individual. Just go apply for the thing and be done with it. It's not "that" big a deal ffs. Also, you might need it if your company wants to send you abroad on business.

This company is engaging in sytematic discrimination, since foreigners will have a passport and Irish people may or may not. If the OP is required to travel that is different, but that may not be the case.



I think companies discriminating against Irish people should be not tolerated.

Cushie Butterfield

ThrowAway0421 wrote:

As part of their onboarding requirements, they asked for a copy of my passport. When I stated that I ddn't have one (genuinely don't have one), they said that they were required by Irish law to have a copy of my passport.

From
https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/FAQ_-_passport/919.htm

4.8 Can my employer ask me to bring in my passport (to take a copy for HR records)?

An employer may ask to see your passport at recruitment stage if this is necessary to show that you are entitled to work in Ireland. An employer may note such passport details on your personnel file. It should not be necessary for an employer to retain a copy of your passport and such action could be a breach of the Data Protection Acts.

Doesn’t solve your problem, but if & when you renew your passport it might be worthwhile challenging HR with regards to them legally requiring a copy of it, & could possibly make you feel a bit better about having to get one.

Victor

Fann Linn wrote: »

The banks won't even accept the PSC as id.

It's illegal for anyone who isn't a scheduled party to accept them as ID.

seamus

Charles Babbage wrote: »

I think companies discriminating against Irish people should be not tolerated.

How can this be discrimination against an Irish person if he can't prove he's Irish?

ohnonotgmail

Charles Babbage wrote: »

This company is engaging in sytematic discrimination, since foreigners will have a passport and Irish people may or may not. If the OP is required to travel that is different, but that may not be the case.



I think companies discriminating against Irish people should be not tolerated.

There is no requirement for EU nationals working here to have a passport. this not discrimination against irish nationals.

L1011

Heart Break Kid wrote: »

As someone who’s issued PSCs to around 5k people in north Dublin. I can tell you that details to get a PSC card can get very light.

Some people can’t afford a passport or are not allowed to own a drivers license. Some may not have bills as they don’t have a permanent residence.

The only form of ID they may have is a birth certificate which I’d consider easy enough to get by dropping down to Pearce street.

They do check social welfare payments along with additional security questions but I find it interesting for any entity to consider the PSC as a valid form of ID. I do consider it better than the PPS card

That's effectively the same info as required for a passport and would be for national ID also