New suckler herd

TheDoc77

I know there’s a lot of doom and gloom about sucklers in particular and the beef trade in general at the moment but I was wondering what would be the best way of setting up a new suckler herd.
There’s a number of different options to take and looking for different opinions on what my be the best road to go down.

1. Hereford or Angus x British friesian maiden heifers and put in calf

2. Limousine x British friesian maiden heifers and put in calf

3. 3/4 bred limousine heifers and put in calf

4. Buy incalf cows and go from there

5. Bucket rear calves myself and bull the best of them down the line

When would be the best time to calve them down? I’ve sheep lambing down in March and April so would prefer not to be calving cows at the same time

What breed of bull would u recommend using/avoiding ?

In a bad area for TB so probably couldn’t rely on being able to sell weanlings so will probably have to finish all progeny

And would like the option of keeping some heifers as replacements too down the road.

All inputs gratefully received

tanko

6. Keep more sheep

squinn2912

If you’re finishing then going the angus route with the sub on them could be a good option. Why not source your cows from varied backgrounds some going back to fr and others more continental? I’m trying out 5 sim heifers Off fr cows and the cows are fairly Holstein. I got them around Easter Off milk 3-4 months age. Happy with their size now and I gauge I’ll be able to bull them April/may time so will calve about 26 months. I’m more mart so in my area the lads prefer beef stock so I might take a bit of a hit there. Plan is lim bull first then move to Charolais for a better colour

Dozer1

could do worse than chance the likes of these..
mixed ages and breeds, if I'd housing I'd think they'd be a good punt

https://www.donedeal.ie/beefcattle-for-sale/sucklers/20372634

squinn2912

Dozer1 wrote: »

could do worse than chance the likes of these..
mixed ages and breeds, if I'd housing I'd think they'd be a good punt

https://www.donedeal.ie/beefcattle-for-sale/sucklers/20372634

Nice mix of stock there yep

Donegalforever

In choosing the breed (or breeds) of Suckler Cows to keep consideration should be given to your location and the type of land that you will use for grazing, also the fertility and docility of the breed or (breeds) that you choose.


On marginal land Angus cows may be ideal.
The only drawback with AA cows is if you want to use a Charolais Bull there is the strong possibility that the calves could be "mousey coloured and tend not to sell as well as white or gold coloured calves at the Marts.
Unless, of course you happen to locate Red Angus cows, then crossing them with a Ch Bull should not present that particular problem.


You could look for White Shorthorn cows or heifers.


On suitable land you could opt for Simmental, Limousin and Charolais cows/heifers. Charolais and Limousins tend not to have a lot of milk.
If you can get a docile Limousin cow/heifer with enough milk, then they might be ideal.



My own preferred choice would be a Simmental/Limousin X.

Dunedin

Donegalforever wrote: »

On suitable land you could opt for Simmental, Limousin and Charolais cows/heifers. Charolais and Limousins tend not to have a lot of milk.
If you can get a docile Limousin cow/heifer with enough milk, then they might be ideal.

The right limo will have plenty of milk. I’ve had to cull them on occasions due to massive bags on them, dragging off the ground nearly and a nightmare to get calf sucking on them.



My own preferred choice would be a Simmental/Limousin X.

Simmental are great cattle but cows can be bad on the feet.

squinn2912

An advisor told me not to worry too much about breed but to try to have a mix in there.

orchard farm

Dunedin wrote: »

Simmental are great cattle but cows can be bad on the feet.

They love to eat too

Dickie10

i got out of sucklers this year slaughtered the bull in may , and let the cows rear the calves til novemeber. the cows are for fattening now in the shed. i dunno was i mad or not but just had enough of sucklers after this year. i feel they haemorrage money. lost 4 calves and a cow. two cows threw calves at 7 months, another had a dead calf at calving then couldnt get up so i had to put her down after a week, another had a calf last year but with feck all milk and had one this year without enough beastings the calf got joint ill badly and eventually couldnt get up at all after a lot of injections, died too. so i said there has to be more money in buying weanlings and finshing them as i was doing as well before that. so plan on finshing a few more cattle and buying more store lambs in summer maybe lamb a few more ewes as well.

TooOldBoots

1. Lim X Fr - Positives: Plenty of Milk, nice calf when crossed with CH. Cheap to get into Negatives: Can be narrow and hard. with calving difficulties
2. WH X Fr Positives: Similar to LimX but are warmer cattle, good milk good calves.Cheap to get into Neg: Calves can often bring the white head ie a wh charolais
3. Angus X Fr : Positives: loads of milk, easy to feed, good calves Cheap to get into: Neg: Calves can be wrong color. Can breed small animals. Can be hard calvers. Poor cull value
4. SimmentalX Positives: Great Calves. Plenty of Milk. Long lasting. High cull value Negs: Very big cows, hungry and eat alot.Cow more expensive
5. CharolaisX: Pos: Similar to SimX, great calves, good calf color: Neg Big cows, hard to feed. Expensive and hard to source
7. Purebreds - Charolais: Positives: Known breeding, calf color.High cull vaue Negs: Poor milking, hard to get incalf again. Calves can sometimes be small. Cows are very expensive to buy

Who2

Limo x blue cow with a limo bull. Covers all basis. Limo x sim cow for a ch bull. Two very stable and consistent crosses anything with a dairy background won’t produce a top priced weanling every time and if your going suckling a middling calf won’t make money.

squinn2912

TooOldBoots wrote: »

1. Lim X Fr - Positives: Plenty of Milk, nice calf when crossed with CH. Cheap to get into Negatives: Can be narrow and hard. with calving difficulties
2. WH X Fr Positives: Similar to LimX but are warmer cattle, good milk good calves.Cheap to get into Neg: Calves can often bring the white head ie a wh charolais
3. Angus X Fr : Positives: loads of milk, easy to feed, good calves Cheap to get into: Neg: Calves can be wrong color. Can breed small animals. Can be hard calvers. Poor cull value
4. SimmentalX Positives: Great Calves. Plenty of Milk. Long lasting. High cull value Negs: Very big cows, hungry and eat alot.Cow more expensive
5. CharolaisX: Pos: Similar to SimX, great calves, good calf color: Neg Big cows, hard to feed. Expensive and hard to source
7. Purebreds - Charolais: Positives: Known breeding, calf color.High cull vaue Negs: Poor milking, hard to get incalf again. Calves can sometimes be small. Cows are very expensive to buy

Good appraisal of the options out there. All have their own pros and cons. Why I advocate a mix. Lim is good for all purpose. Think about your land and if you’ll be about to calve them etc

bogman_bass

squinn2912 wrote: »

If you’re finishing then going the angus route with the sub on them could be a good option. Why not source your cows from varied backgrounds some going back to fr and others more continental? I’m trying out 5 sim heifers Off fr cows and the cows are fairly Holstein. I got them around Easter Off milk 3-4 months age. Happy with their size now and I gauge I’ll be able to bull them April/may time so will calve about 26 months. I’m more mart so in my area the lads prefer beef stock so I might take a bit of a hit there. Plan is lim bull first then move to Charolais for a better colour

If you are chasing that market there is no point in using angus cross cows. The calf only has to be 50% angus so you would be better off buying BBxFr calves/heifers and AI to angus.

_Brian

I’m familiar with the saying “when everyone is getting out it’s the time to invest”, but are you really clear on just how tough sucklers are at the moment.

OP needs to be in an area with a really short winter, wintering sucklers for 5+ months is uneconomical, it just burns through money.

Dunedin

_Brian wrote: »

I’m familiar with the saying “when everyone is getting out it’s the time to invest”, but are you really clear on just how tough sucklers are at the moment.

OP needs to be in an area with a really short winter, wintering sucklers for 5+ months is uneconomical, it just burns through money.

I would agree to an extent but of equal importance is the quality of your stock and your land needs to capable of pushing your selling cattle to high weights. Small, light weanlings will lose money and equally finished cattle struggling for 400kgs DW is no good either.

Whilst on one hand, I admire farmers with the guts to get out of sucklers if it’s not happening for them, but the other side is that sometimes you have to ride out the storms and stick with a system for a few years.

patsy_mccabe

If I was starting out in suckling again, I'd try and get good cows at maybe a clearance sale and start with small numbers and breed your own replacements then from them. Start with cows that are big and wide at the hips. These will calf anything. Milk would be second them in the list followed by docility.
There's a huge learning curve in any new farming change. For me getting the winter feeding right was a big thing as you have to balance not overfeeding with having to keep the cow in good health.

Muckit

Dunedin wrote: »

sometimes you have to ride out the storms and stick with a system for a few years.

I would have agreed with you pre april 2015, but this is not a one off. Dairying will and is shaping the future of beef in Ireland whether we like it or not.

Unless the factories do a total regig of the grid offering special premium payments for suckler beef cattle, its going to die a slow death.

And we mightn't even get the dregs. There are a number of big dairy farmers that l know ramping up to finishing all of their dairy cows progeny.

There will be big changes in this country in 20years time.

Bass Reeves

Anybody that think's changes to the grid will save sucklers is deluded. In yesterday indo a Teagasc advisor was spewing BS about wider grid payment because of lean meat content. The premium meats (AA and HE) are all marbaled in the UK that get a bonus. We see already Foyle meats new payment structure under pressure as they drop there base prce after a big announcement a few weeks ago.

The majority of steers from contenintal suckler grade on the R+/U- so even a movement of even 4c/kg extra grid payment will only mean 14 and 28 euro/head on cattle killing below 380kgs. If such a payment is given the quid quo pro will be sub 380kgs DW carcasses so careful what you wish for. Any payment will make no difference to R=/R- cattle but will penalize the nearly 70% of stock below that. Yes bulls sub 16 months will win but a FS penelty on 2+ and a weight limit could snatch defeat from the jaws of victory for the small numbers involved. Again 16-20 months bulls will not see any difference.

Because of that sucklers are f@@ked until numbers fall by 40% and they become a niche product targeted at winter finishing. The only winners when the grid is tinkered with is the processors. Too many lads have no clue what they are talking about. The question you have to ask is if I am not making a profit now any tinkering or extra premium will not justify longterm staying in the suckler game.

OP it all depends on whether you intend to finish the prodgney or not. If you are not going to finish your stock you need to produce an U/E grade weanling 350++ kgs at weaning to justify keeping a cow. If you intend finishing the stock I forget about suckler cows and start buying a few stores.

squinn2912

bogman_bass wrote: »

If you are chasing that market there is no point in using angus cross cows. The calf only has to be 50% angus so you would be better off buying BBxFr calves/heifers and AI to angus.

No no I didn’t mean angus cows unless being x bred to continental bulls. By going angus I meant aa bull with other breeds of cow

K.G.

have you looked at the econmic s of this.you are at nothing if you dont do sums to help decide your system. no good having a grand looking charolois cow if a fr x hereford would pay better

Grueller

Muckit wrote: »

I would have agreed with you pre april 2015, but this is not a one off. Dairying will and is shaping the future of beef in Ireland whether we like it or not.

Unless the factories do a total regig of the grid offering special premium payments for suckler beef cattle, its going to die a slow death.

And we mightn't even get the dregs. There are a number of big dairy farmers that l know ramping up to finishing all of their dairy cows progeny.

There will be big changes in this country in 20years time.

Not trying to be a prick (but probably succeeding Muckit) but I think you are in Galway iirc? That is not big dairy country. Around here, I have 3 farmers with 300+ cows on my road within 1 mile of me and they would nog keep a bull calf past two weeks bar they had a tb oitbreak.

charolais0153

Grueller wrote: »

Not trying to be a prick (but probably succeeding Muckit) but I think you are in Galway iirc? That is not big dairy country. Around here, I have 3 farmers with 300+ cows on my road within 1 mile of me and they would nog keep a bull calf past two weeks bar they had a tb oitbreak.

I was very surprised to see cavan had more dairy cows than galway tbh.
No dairy cows on my road btw..

_Brian

charolais0153 wrote: »

I was very surprised to see cavan had more dairy cows than galway tbh.
No dairy cows on my road btw..

That surprises me too.

I just see everything being moulded towards dairy cross beef going forward. A slow death by attrition for the suckler herd.

Figures over last years have shown only top 1/3 of herds making any money, and even that I don’t feel those lads are making a fair wage considering all the risk they are carrying.

The remaining 2/3 are just stuck and see no other option and continue to sub the sucklers with the cheque in the post.

bogman_bass

charolais0153 wrote: »

I was very surprised to see cavan had more dairy cows than galway tbh.
No dairy cows on my road btw..

Really? I’m not. There is a rich history of small dairy farming in Cavan thanks to Lakeland being there. Some good dairy country around Virginia

Dickie10

a lot of cavan would be perfect dairy land, hilly so some dry ground , from Virginia all east and south cavan would be decent land for grass growth. they tend to have colder weather though than around south meath. so id say late spring growth, a lot of dairy farmers around me quit about 15-20 years ago, I know 4 within 2 miles that got out of it

orchard farm

Dickie10 wrote: »

a lot of cavan would be perfect dairy land, hilly so some dry ground , from Virginia all east and south cavan would be decent land for grass growth. they tend to have colder weather though than around south meath. so id say late spring growth, a lot of dairy farmers around me quit about 15-20 years ago, I know 4 within 2 miles that got out of it

Not great dairy country in West cavan with little options other than sucklers selling weanings circa 250kgs,total loss making operations forestry option is comming to a stop too

Dickie10

yea well that region is probably the most extreme land in ireland lietrim, parts of fermanagh and west cavan are basically non sustainable in todays agriculture those places need factories again like quinn to keep people in them otherwise it will be all frested and mass migration.

ITFarmer

orchard farm wrote: »

Not great dairy country in West cavan with little options other than sucklers selling weanings circa 250kgs,total loss making operations forestry option is comming to a stop too

Hi Orchard farm: Could you explain "forestry option is coming to a stop too" a bit more.

squinn2912

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

If I was starting out in suckling again, I'd try and get good cows at maybe a clearance sale and start with small numbers and breed your own replacements then from them. Start with cows that are big and wide at the hips. These will calf anything. Milk would be second them in the list followed by docility.
There's a huge learning curve in any new farming change. For me getting the winter feeding right was a big thing as you have to balance not overfeeding with having to keep the cow in good health.

That's exactly what my dad did after we lost the cows to brucellosis in 2001 and we're running about 50 cows a good number of years. Started with 8 well made heifers all lims with a bit of SH in a few

orchard farm

ITFarmer wrote: »

Hi Orchard farm: Could you explain "forestry option is coming to a stop too" a bit more.

Yes the majority of the land is refused planting permission due to bog heather,rare Orchids and numerous other environmental issues.the grasslands that are being approved are now the centre of the save leitrim campaign all of which leaves land of very little value except for light weanings production which prices have fallen well back on to no longer cover cow costs.thats why something like a high value nature scheme might give the farmers some hope of sustaining themselves and the rural economy, factorys are few and far between