Small Claims Court against Builder

niallam

Our Builder advised me that we needed to purchase our boiler & oil tank ourselves during our build. I did so to about a cost of €1900.
Was very busy with work and other stuff so never checked the original quotation from him, he was a friend of the inlaws so trusted him I suppose.

When I did eventually get to go through original quote it was all included on it.

I’ve asked him to come see me 20 times, called, text... but he won’t respond.

Small claims court an option for me?

Rows Grower

It sure is.

evolving_doors

Have a look on the CRO website and see if they've dissolved often, or the name isn't in his name. I went this route and found out he'd dissolved but was now working for his sons company (same business ). I'd sent him threats of legal action for too long so when I sent an engineer's report he must have known I was serious and folded rather than fix the mistake.
Might have all been a coincidence of course!
Either way do it quick and don't tell him you're doing it.

sasta le

What are you claiming for?

niallam

sasta le wrote: »

What are you claiming for?

The items I bought under his instructions that were on his original quotation for being included in the price of his work.

ohnonotgmail

So the items were part of his original quote but you went and bought them on his instructions. Is that it? Have you paid him yet?

dudara

A quote is a quote. Did you receive an invoice with a detailed breakdown of costs? What I’m trying to ask is how do you know that you have paid for the items?

niallam

dudara wrote: »

A quote is a quote. Did you receive an invoice with a detailed breakdown of costs? What I’m trying to ask is how do you know that you have paid for the items?

I drove to the local builders providers and bought a boiler and ordered the tank online myself.

His quote has that we was to supply both items.
We agreed to run with this Builder and his quote is what we were running off.

Only when I looked back at his original quote I noticed. It’s the first and last house I’ll be getting built so just didn’t really know what the craic was.
My wife was heavily pregnant and he was using that as his way to get money off us so we’d be in the house before the baby arrived. Build was already 6 months over!!!
In the end we actually had to get different contractors in at our cost to finish the house because he just abandoned us with an unfinished house!
He was only due the final downpayment which we couldn’t get until the House was completed.
4 months down the road now and we’ve had to scrape from everywhere to pay others to finish the house, tried for weeks and weeks to get a response from our original builder, we were out of our accommodation and wife was 38 weeks pregnant by that stage.
Can only imagine where we’d be now if we’d have used the few quid that we had put away to pay him fully for house before he was done.

We don’t want the stress of going down the full legal route as really don’t need it.
Just trying to get back anything at this stage and this is one thing I thought would be an easy enough way.
In reality there’s about €4000 worth of stuff I bought (and so much more other stuff in the build that our architect gave us a cost saving on) but I don’t have invoices for all of it.
But by the time we’d pay solicitors and I’d have to take time off work it wouldn’t be worth our while going down that route we felt.

ohnonotgmail

You need to be clearer about what happened.

niallam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You need to be clearer about what happened.

Got a quote to build a house.
Agreed with builder that work could start based on that quote.
Builder instructed me to purchase an oil boiler and tank.
I purchased.
When I checked builders quote for work it included “50/70 high density oil burner and oil tank”

Boiler & tank installed by plumber and we’re living in the house now.

Tried to discuss with builder since August but he won’t respond in any form to us.

ohnonotgmail

niallam wrote: »

Got a quote to build a house.
Agreed with builder that work could start based on that quote.
Builder instructed me to purchase an oil boiler and tank.
I purchased.
When I checked builders quote for work it included “50/70 high density oil burner and oil tank”

Boiler & tank installed by plumber and we’re living in the house now.

Tried to discuss with builder since August but he won’t respond in any form to us.

So did the builder invoice you for the oil boiler and tank? A quote is irrelevant.

niallam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So did the builder invoice you for the oil boiler and tank? A quote is irrelevant.

We didn’t get any invoice from the builder of any sort.

We got 3 builders quotes and agreed to go with him based on everything he had in his quote.
He gave us a quote for everything included in the building works. I must actually check if it’s quote or invoice that’s on the headed paper.

My biggest problem is that I trusted a family friend of my inlaws to carry out the build and he left us high & dry! I’m not from the area so went with their recommendation even though wasn’t the cheapest quote we got.

Grolschevik

niallam wrote: »

builders quote for work it included “50/70 high density oil burner and oil tank”

Boiler & tank installed by plumber.

niallam wrote: »

I must actually check if it’s quote or invoice that’s on the headed paper.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So did the builder invoice you for the oil boiler and tank? A quote is irrelevant.

Moreover, did he quote/invoice for
(a) the purchase and installation, or
(b) just the installation?

niallam

Grolschevik wrote: »

Moreover, did he quote/invoice for
(a) the purchase and installation, or
(b) just the installation?

Purchase & installation
The quote had the boiler spec on it.

There were other things on it like “sanitary ware not supplied but fitted”.
He’d instructed us to buy this which we did but no issue for us because we can see we had to supply.

It was when the list of things we ‘had to buy’ started getting crazy that I started checking.

He had me buying wall vents by the end it was getting that bad before I checked.

That’s why the only items I think I have any comeback on are boiler & tank.

ohnonotgmail

niallam wrote: »

Purchase & installation
The quote had the boiler spec on it.

There were other things on it like “sanitary ware not supplied but fitted”.
He’d instructed us to buy this which we did but no issue for us because we can see we had to supply.

It was when the list of things we ‘had to buy’ started getting crazy that I started checking.

He had me buying wall vents by the end it was getting that bad before I checked.

That’s why the only items I think I have any comeback on are boiler & tank.

Forget the quote. It is irrelevant. What did he invoice you for?

niallam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Forget the quote. It is irrelevant. What did he invoice you for?

At what stage of a build would I have gotten an invoice?
We were given a list of everything included and the end figure for total cost of build.

Can you enter a verbal agreement based on the quote?
The paperwork might say ‘invoice’ on it, just waiting for my wife to get back to me.

ohnonotgmail

niallam wrote: »

At what stage of a build would I have gotten an invoice?
We were given a list of everything included and the end figure for total cost of build.

Can you enter a verbal agreement based on the quote?
The paperwork might say ‘invoice’ on it, just waiting for my wife to get back to me.

You should have received an invoice before you paid. How else did you know how much to pay?

jimmycrackcorm

niallam wrote:

! He was only due the final downpayment which we couldn’t get until the House was completed. 4 months down the road now and we’ve had to scrape from everywhere to pay others to finish the house, tried for weeks and weeks to get a response from our original builder, we were out of our accommodation and wife was 38 weeks pregnant by that stage. Can only imagine where we’d be now if we’d have used the few quid that we had put away to pay him fully for house before he was done.

So you didn't pay him the full amount based on the quote. I can't see how you can recover any money from him.
A quote is just that.

niallam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You should have received an invoice before you paid. How else did you know how much to pay?

We were getting installments from the bank every time the architect would sign off on a stage of the build.
The bank never needed an invoice from the builder, nor the architect never needed to see any.

That why any builder will always know the final downpayment can’t be received until house is fully finished and signed off on.
No bank hands over a full mortgage anymore I don’t believe

niallam

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

So you didn't pay him the full amount based on the quote. I can't see how you can recover any money from him.
A quote is just that.

We couldn’t pay him the full amount, we can only pay full amount when building is finished and fully signed off by architect, BER completed and valuation done.

Builder broke all communication with us in August for no reason.

evolving_doors

niallam wrote: »

We couldn’t pay him the full amount, we can only pay full amount when building is finished and fully signed off by architect, BER completed and valuation done.

Builder broke all communication with us in August for no reason.

Find out if they're still trading.... and registered to do so.

TheChizler

niallam wrote: »

We were getting installments from the bank every time the architect would sign off on a stage of the build.
The bank never needed an invoice from the builder, nor the architect never needed to see any.

That why any builder will always know the final downpayment can’t be received until house is fully finished and signed off on.
No bank hands over a full mortgage anymore I don’t believe

Were you just passing on the instalments to the builder without getting a bill/invoice first?

niallam

evolving_doors wrote: »

Find out if they're still trading.... and registered to do so.

Yes and yes.

listermint

It sounds like the OP paid twice for the goods.

And tbh if the builder is not answering calls then there is something fishy here. If it was a simple quote / invoice discrepancy then he would answer the phone and explain that.

niallam

TheChizler wrote: »

Were you just passing on the instalments to the builder without getting a bill/invoice first?

We never knew we should have been, I’m guessing we should?

But then because he did a runner before the last downpayment it wouldn’t have mattered?
Adding up what we paid for stuff to what we’ve had to pay other trades to finish all his work we’re well out of pocket overall!

Were we simply just effed over by someone who was supposed to be a family friend of the inlaws?
Yep I know it was stupid to trust someone I personally didn’t know but my wife knows him 30 years too, friend with his kids, her parents know him 50 years!

We were in a position where we had to finish the house or be homeless / live in unfinished house with a newborn and our other kids too.

Graniteville

A court will want to see actual evidence and going by this thread, you don't seem to be sure yourself.

For any action to succeed you need to show quote and payments directly related to that quote to show that you overpaid and supporting evidence.

Eventually after several posts it seems you are saying that the builder quoted you for supplying a boiler unit and also on that quote is a charge for fitting and connecting same unit. And that in the end the crux of the matter is the builder did not actually supply the unit, but you paid him for it anyway. ?

have I got that right?

and have you paperwork to back up your claim?

niallam

listermint wrote: »

It sounds like the OP paid twice for the goods.

And tbh if the builder is not answering calls then there is something fishy here. If it was a simple quote / invoice discrepancy then he would answer the phone and explain that.

That’s exactly my issue

niallam

Graniteville wrote: »

A court will want to see actual evidence and going by this thread, you don't seem to be sure yourself.

For any action to succeed you need to show quote and payments directly related to that quote to show that you overpaid and supporting evidence.

Eventually after several posts it seems you are saying that the builder quoted you for supplying a boiler unit and also on that quote is a charge for fitting and connecting same unit. And that in the end the crux of the matter is the builder did not actually supply the unit, but you paid him for it anyway. ?

have I got that right?

and have you paperwork to back up your claim?

I’ve his paperwork quote where it states the boiler & tank are included.
I’ve also receipts made out in my name for me purchasing the items which he told me I had to do

It’s only when I reverted back to the original quote I saw I shouldn’t have had to purchase them as they were included in the items he was to supply

Sleeper12

niallam wrote:

We didn’t get any invoice from the builder of any sort.

niallam wrote:

At what stage of a build would I have gotten an invoice? We were given a list of everything included and the end figure for total cost of build.

niallam wrote:

We were getting installments from the bank every time the architect would sign off on a stage of the build. The bank never needed an invoice from the builder, nor the architect never needed to see any.

Usually there is a payment contract outlining at what stage you pay each installment. You should have gotten a vat invoice for each instalment or at the very least a receipt.

Basically an invoice is a document asking for payment & outlining what the payment is for. Invoice should show vat payable. You get the receipt after you make each payment

Rows Grower

niallam wrote: »

I’ve his paperwork quote where it states the boiler & tank are included.
I’ve also receipts made out in my name for me purchasing the items which he told me I had to do

It’s only when I reverted back to the original quote I saw I shouldn’t have had to purchase them as they were included in the items he was to supply

I gathered this from your first post, contact the Small Claims Court to file a claim, they are very helpful and will assist and advise you how to proceed.

They will contact the builder and he will have to respond, if he doesn't respond the claim will be processed anyway and he will be bound by law to pay you what the court says you are owed.

If he chooses not to pay he will be contacted by the County Sheriff or Registrar who will warn him they can seize any goods he owns to sell and cover what you are owed.

Best of luck with the case and your new home and family.

ohnonotgmail

Rows Grower wrote: »

I gathered this from your first post, contact the Small Claims Court to file a claim, they are very helpful and will assist and advise you how to proceed.

They will contact the builder and he will have to respond, if he doesn't respond the claim will be processed anyway and he will be bound by law to pay you what the court says you are owed.

If he chooses not to pay he will be contacted by the County Sheriff or Registrar who will warn him they can seize any goods he owns to sell and cover what you are owed.

Best of luck with the case and your new home and family.

But there is nothing to suggest that the OP actually paid the builder for the 2 items they purchased themselves.

niallam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

But there is nothing to suggest that the OP actually paid the builder for the 2 items they purchased themselves.

I’ve numerous bank transfers to him?

ohnonotgmail

niallam wrote: »

I’ve numerous bank transfers to him?

you have proof of paying sums but to say what those sums were for. That is the reason for invoices.

Rows Grower

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

But there is nothing to suggest that the OP actually paid the builder for the 2 items they purchased themselves.

I gathered it from the third sentence.

Rows Grower

niallam wrote: »

I’ve numerous bank transfers to him?

That will help your case enormously, contact the Small Claims Court to file a case.

niallam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you have proof of paying sums but to say what those sums were for. That is the reason for invoices.

The quotation was to build house as per architect drawings and specifications and then listed all items included and not included.
Should the onus not be on his company to furnish an invoice for money received?

I’d say it’s near impossible during a build to give invoices and breakdowns to match every €10000 transfer exactly? But an invoice at the end of finished build would make more sense?

ohnonotgmail

niallam wrote: »

The quotation was to build house as per architect drawings and specifications and then listed all items included and not included.
Should the onus not be on his company to furnish an invoice for money received?

I’d say it’s near impossible during a build to give invoices and breakdowns to match every €10000 transfer exactly? But an invoice at the end of finished build would make more sense?

Things can change during a build so a quotation is of no use to you. It indicates what you intended at the start not what was actually done. You should have insisted on invoices but you didn't.

Sleeper12

niallam wrote:

The quotation was to build house as per architect drawings and specifications and then listed all items included and not included. Should the onus not be on his company to furnish an invoice for money received?

It sounds like the OP has no written contract with the builder at all. Op has a quote. Is it the first, second, third or tenth quote all with different things listed? What is to stop the builder printing off a revised or different version of the quote for the small claims court? Hopefully he won't do this. But op seems to have nothing in writing. No signed payment schedule /agreement.

niallam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Things can change during a build so a quotation is of no use to you. It indicates what you intended at the start not what was actually done. You should have insisted on invoices but you didn't.

No point to even try challenge this cowboy?
Let him ride off into the sunset with the money?

ohnonotgmail

niallam wrote: »

No point to even try challenge this cowboy?
Let him ride off into the sunset with the money?

consult a solicitor.

Rows Grower

niallam wrote: »

No point to even try challenge this cowboy?
Let him ride off into the sunset with the money?

For the sake of 25 euro I'd let a real judge be the judge of that.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if the builder settles with you once he see's you have filed a case and would be very surprised if you lost the case.

Rows Grower

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

consult a solicitor.

Do not.

ohnonotgmail

Rows Grower wrote: »

Do not.

Well at the very least they the OP might end with a convincing narrative. As it is they dont even know them what the builder has charged them for.

Squatter

OP you state that you haven't paid him the full amount of the contract because he abandoned you before the build was complete.

So what you'll have to prove to the court's satisfaction is that the amounts that you did pay him definitely included the cost of the items that you had purchased yourself.

If you can do that, then by all means go to the SCC; but if you can't then you're probably wasting your time.

niallam

Squatter wrote: »

OP you state that you haven't paid him the full amount of the contract because he abandoned you before the build was complete.

So what you'll have to prove to the court's satisfaction is that the amounts that you did pay him definitely included the cost of the items that you had purchased yourself.

If you can do that, then by all means go to the SCC; but if you can't then you're probably wasting your time.

He was paid for the work that was done.
That work was done so he was paid for it.

I’ve receipts from all contractors I had to get since he abandoned us which add up to more than what the last downpayment would have been as the builder was paid well ahead of any work he’d done.


This builder wanted payment in full for the completed works before he’d finished, just wasn’t going to be a runner!
It’s extremely common I’m told for a contractor to have to wait for snag lists and stuff before they’re paid the last 10%

Rows Grower

Squatter wrote: »

OP you state that you haven't paid him the full amount of the contract because he abandoned you before the build was complete.

So what you'll have to prove to the court's satisfaction is that the amounts that you did pay him definitely included the cost of the items that you had purchased yourself.

If you can do that, then by all means go to the SCC; but if you can't then you're probably wasting your time.

OP has also stated in the first post that the builder has not responded to numerous calls, texts etc.

He will respond to the Small Courts Claim and explain himself and if he doesn't he will be liable for the claim.

If he does respond and fight the claim in court the Judge will decide on the balance of probabilities and will not need definitive proof.

Squatter

niallam wrote: »

He was paid for the work that was done.

That work was done so he was paid for it.

So he wasn't paid for the items that you purchased?

Case closed.

Sleeper12

Best advice so far.








I don't think op has any contract at all. This leaves a he said, she said situation

Squatter

Rows Grower wrote: »

OP has also stated in the first post that the builder has not responded to numerous calls, texts etc.

He will respond to the Small Courts Claim and explain himself and if he doesn't he will be liable for the claim.

If he does respond and fight the claim in court the Judge will decide on the balance of probabilities and will not need definitive proof.

Or he'll ignore the case, the plaintiff will win and then nothing will happen.

Don't be giving him false hope.

Sleeper12

niallam wrote:

I’ve receipts from all contractors I had to get since he abandoned us which add up to more than what the last downpayment would have been as the builder was paid well ahead of any work he’d done.

This does not prove your point though. The builder would have gotten the tradesmen a lot cheaper than you did. He also would have claimed the vat back on the tradesmen. Just because you spent the amount (or higher) you owe the builder doesn't automatically mean that you paid for the boiler twice.

I do feel sorry for the situation you are in & I'm not deliberately trying to have a pop at you. I'm looking at this objectively and I'm not certain that you paid for the boiler twice. You don't seem to have anything in writing except for the quote. As a building job goes on you usually accumulate "extras". Extras don't always look like extras. Moving a door, Bath kitchen sink etc might seem small but several little things can add thousands. Unless you ask at the time how much the extra thing costs then the builder charges what he wants, within reason but usually expensive, at the end of the job. Its possible that the builder has chalked up thousands in extras.

niallam wrote:

This builder wanted payment in full for the completed works before he’d finished, just wasn’t going to be a runner! It’s extremely common I’m told for a contractor to have to wait for snag lists and stuff before they’re paid the last 10%

Only if you have a contract with him & it's in the contract. No contract & no payment schedule then money is due when he says its due.

Rows Grower

Squatter wrote: »

Or he'll ignore the case, the plaintiff will win and then nothing will happen.

Don't be giving him false hope.

If you'd like to educate yourself on how the process actually works you should read post no. 30.