Cattle carcase dis-grading and other persistant annoyances.

KAMG

Anyone else feel they were hard done by with the conformation grades received on their cattle sent recently?

epfff

KAMG wrote: »

Anyone else feel they were hard done by with the conformation grades received on their cattle sent recently?

+1

pat73

KAMG wrote: »

Anyone else feel they were hard done by with the conformation grades received on their cattle sent recently?

I kill alot of fresian bullocks over the year every year,all got good grass and plenty ration.All good square fresians.Every year they would grade o and believe it or not i got the odd r.This year every one of them graded p.Granted the drought didnt help but i would expect a mixture of o and p.I complained to the agent and his words were that the grading machine was gone very mean this year.A Larry Goodman grading machine.Im def not going to be a busy fool next year.

CloughCasey1

pat73 wrote: »

I kill alot of fresian bullocks over the year every year,all got good grass and plenty ration.All good square fresians.Every year they would grade o and believe it or not i got the odd r.This year every one of them graded p.Granted the drought didnt help but i would expect a mixture of o and p.I complained to the agent and his words were that the grading machine was gone very mean this year.A Larry Goodman grading machine.Im def not going to be a busy fool next year.

Had a FR that couldn't fit through the skulling gate earlier in year grade O- at 29mts 25days. Yet a lesser quality comrade at 33mts that had plenty of room going out same gate and less flesh got an O+ and killed out 35kg less. The monkey running the grading computer doesn't recognise anything overage as they dont have the 12c to lose. First thing the beef movement guys should push is calling BS on the grading system as it stands.

Cavanjack

epfff wrote: »

+1

Plus 2. U grade bulls are turning into r's. Also there is no consistency. Is the department not supposed to be looking after these?

Bass Reeves

Cavanjack wrote: »

Plus 2. U grade bulls are turning into r's. Also there is no consistency. Is the department not supposed to be looking after these?

There is no monitoring of grading. It an open secret that the machines are manuipilated. The dept will do f@@k all about it as they cannot read the code and therefore cannot see what is happening.

We have posted about this a lot over the last 12 months

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is no monitoring of grading. It an open secret that the machines are manuipilated. The dept will do f@@k all about it as they cannot read the code and therefore cannot see what is happening.

We have posted about this a lot over the last 12 months

Why would they bother manipulating the machines, they'd get the same amount of cattle if they offered 10 -20c/kg less with the same effect.

Willfarman

wrangler wrote: »

Why would they bother manipulating the machines, they'd get the same amount of cattle if they offered 10 -20c/kg less with the same effect.

Is this the official stance of the ifa or your own personal notion?

A big herd of pedigree Hereford cattle close to here that the farmer has been improving and monitoring for his lifetime. I finished a few very nice bullocks from the said herd this year. R grade thick square cattle over 700kg at 25 months of age. 3 o- and 2 o=. No appeal or recourse available.

CloughCasey1

wrangler wrote: »

Why would they bother manipulating the machines, they'd get the same amount of cattle if they offered 10 -20c/kg less with the same effect.

You see smoke......usually means fire
It quacks and walks like a duck........usually a duck
Something smells like ****.......sure enough its ****
Talking to a lad that finishes a whole lot more than me that sends different stock to different factories for different reasons
Cull cows go local....good flat price and grading better
Fr or plain dairy cattle go to a bit further......reckons he will get o+ more often on well fed well fleshed bullocks at younger kill under 30mts for fr and around 24 for aax/hex
Anything suckler bred and 440kg DW or above goes elsewhere......grading poor but wont get cut on over heavy cattle.
Now that is a fcuk up of a system if ya ask me.
Its like putting a square peg into a round hole.
Yet when we arrive with a round peg they produce a square hole and swear blind it was the same hole as last week. AS SURE AS NIGHT FOLLOWS DAY SELF REGULATION WILL ALWAYS BE EXPLOITED IN EVERY WALK OF LIFE.

wrangler

Willfarman wrote: »

Is this the official stance of the ifa or your own personal notion?

A big herd of pedigree Hereford cattle close to here that the farmer has been improving and monitoring for his lifetime. I finished a few very nice bullocks from the said herd this year. R grade thick square cattle over 700kg at 25 months of age. 3 o- and 2 o=. No appeal or recourse available.

You must be referring to someone else if you think I can't think for myself,
No one seems able or bothered to prove these allegations, Wrong grading in our lambs would always be investigated when it happens and usually put right and it certainly wouldn't be allowed go on ad infinitum

I says

wrangler wrote: »

You must be referring to someone else if you think I can't think for myself,
No one seems able or bothered to prove these allegations, Wrong grading in our lambs would always be investigated when it happens and usually put right and it certainly wouldn't be allowed go on ad infinitum

Well the factory in the midlands just off the motorway has had the grading changed 3 times this year my agent hasn’t sent nor will send cattle to it.

wrangler

I says wrote: »

Well the factory in the midlands just off the motorway has had the grading changed 3 times this year my agent hasn’t sent nor will send cattle to it.

If that was true you'd think someone would be following it up, sounds a bit iffy to me

Willfarman

wrangler wrote: »

You must be referring to someone else if you think I can't think for myself,
No one seems able or bothered to prove these allegations, Wrong grading in our lambs would always be investigated when it happens and usually put right and it certainly wouldn't be allowed go on ad infinitum

No I have the correct poster. The sheep farmer who comes as the knights watch to the wall to defend the ifa in every beef thread!

CloughCasey1

Willfarman wrote: »

No I have the correct poster. The sheep farmer who comes as the knights watch to the wall to defend the ifa in every beef thread!

The 11th commandment
"Thow shall not speak ill of the IFA or any of its cronies" "for theirs is the kingdom of brown envelopes and compitition authority dodging and screwing the peasants into quitting farming and joining the rat race into urban areas every morning, toils of boring paperwork and putting small parts together for these fat cronies when they need pace-makers, stints etc as a result of their ill gotten greed"

wrangler

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

The 11th commandment
"Thow shall not speak ill of the IFA or any of its cronies" "for theirs is the kingdom of brown envelopes and compitition authority dodging and screwing the peasants into quitting farming and joining the rat race into urban areas every morning, toils of boring paperwork and putting small parts together for these fat cronies when they need pace-makers, stints etc as a result of their ill gotten greed"

I'm telling you all to pull your finger out of wherever it happens to be at the moment and do something for yourselves......throwing around insinuations and accusations will get you nowhere and infact is probably turning you into a joke in the factory canteen.
I'm looking forward to yet another organisation fail to handle factories and finally reveal farmers for what they are

riemann

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is no monitoring of grading. It an open secret that the machines are manuipilated. The dept will do f@@k all about it as they cannot read the code and therefore cannot see what is happening.

We have posted about this a lot over the last 12 months

That's just absolute nonsense. If you have any proof of this I'd be very interested to read it.

On the other hand, if it's all based on hearsay and anecdotes you'd be better served concentrating on what's under your control as opposed to complaining and moaning.

A cartel doesn't need to manipulate grading machines when they set the price.

Willfarman

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/beef/department-of-agriculture-inspectors-to-monitor-carcase-trim-in-meat-factories-ifa-37034399.html

I had to go looking for this from memory..

TITANIUM.

wrangler wrote: »

I'm telling you all to pull your finger out of wherever it happens to be at the moment and do something for yourselves......throwing around insinuations and accusations will get you nowhere and infact is probably turning you into a joke in the factory canteen.
I'm looking forward to yet another organisation fail to handle factories and finally reveal farmers for what they are

Why don't you take a few valum there rangler and keep your blood pressure down. Your beginning to sound like a bitter old man! "reveal farmers for what they are." ??? Really???
Keep your toes up the chimney and leave the farming to the farmers, we don't need broad generalisations from one, Who used to speak for us. Fine job ye did looking at the state were in now. These lads are trying to fix the mess. Get onboard or get out of the way.

wrangler

Willfarman wrote: »

No I have the correct poster. The sheep farmer who comes as the knights watch to the wall to defend the ifa in every beef thread!

I'm four years gone from IFA now, not because of Pat smith negotiating a salary for himself and expecting it to be delivered, but because farmers (again) let irregularities happen on their watch.
It's ironic that the person that blew the lid on the whole pile of sh... had to be in on negotiating smiths salary.....you couldn't make it up

charolais0153

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Why don't you take a few valum there rangler and keep your blood pressure down. Your beginning to sound like a bitter old man! "reveal farmers for what they are." ??? Really???
Keep your toes up the chimney and leave the farming to the farmers, we don't need broad generalisations from one, Who used to speak for us. Fine job ye did looking at the state were in now. These lads are trying to fix the mess. Get onboard or get out of the way.

He not only person to keep bp down.

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

fat cronies when they need pace-makers, stints etc as a result of their ill gotten greed"

"leave the farming to the farmers"
He is retired now but was one of the best sheep farmers in the country.
Believe it or not, ifa dont control whether or not the factories tamper with the machines. They should be regulated by dept.

TITANIUM.

charolais0153 wrote: »

He not only person to keep bp down.

"leave the farming to the farmers"
He is retired now but was one of the best sheep farmers in the country.
Believe it or not, ifa dont control whether or not the factories tamper with the machines. They should be regulated by dept.

That's grand, So are we to take it you agree with statements like this,

"I'm looking forward to yet another organisation fail to handle factories and finally reveal farmers for what they are"

Tis some mouthful of scutter to come out of a former farmers mouth if you ask me. Wishing ill on your former colleagues peers and neighbours. Pathetic really!

wrangler

TITANIUM. wrote: »

That's grand, So are we to take it you agree with statements like this,

"I'm looking forward to yet another organisation fail to handle factories and finally reveal farmers for what they are"

Tis some mouthful of scutter to come out of a former farmers mouth if you ask me. Wishing ill on your former colleagues peers and neighbours. Pathetic really!

You should at least wait to see how this latest effort works out before you refute what I'm saying.
I just hope the organisers are properly supported

Willfarman

I kind of see where Rangler is coming from.. a lot of farmers have their eye on the neighbors acre. Anyone in the agri business seems winds up very grouchy after dealing with farmers for a long time.

Penny pinching greed and begrudgery is rife.

TITANIUM.

wrangler wrote: »

I just hope the organisers are properly supported

I thought you were looking forward to it failing? Your contradicting yourself.

Times are tough in farming, I'll support them and hope to god they achieve sone level of success. Even if that means the lads who sit on there hands (either through laziness or ignorance) get the same benefit as those who stood up to be counted and put in the work.

wrangler

TITANIUM. wrote: »

I thought you were looking forward to it failing? Your contradicting yourself.

Times are tough in farming, I'll support them and hope to god they achieve sone level of success. Even if that means the lads who sit on there hands (either through laziness or ignorance) get the same benefit as those who stood up to be counted and put in the work.

I know where the organisers are at the moment,They cannot be confident of getting the strength of support they need. I also saw the support ICSA got for their last protest so it's not just IFA....Beef forum has also failed,.it doesn't look great.

greysides

I split these posts away from the Beef Price thread as I thought it deserved a separate discussion. It also served to corral all the 'argumentative types' into their own area but be aware some modicum of civility is still expected.

Okay, opposite corners and ......

Lest there be any offence taken, the above comments/descriptions are very much tongue-in-cheek.

I have to have a bit of fun the odd time.

coolshannagh28

pat73 wrote: »

I kill alot of fresian bullocks over the year every year,all got good grass and plenty ration.All good square fresians.Every year they would grade o and believe it or not i got the odd r.This year every one of them graded p.Granted the drought didnt help but i would expect a mixture of o and p.I complained to the agent and his words were that the grading machine was gone very mean this year.A Larry Goodman grading machine.Im def not going to be a busy fool next year.

John Heney

patsy_mccabe

I remember in the old days when we killed cattle here, I could nearly always get the grade right on them. When experienced guys say there's something wrong now, I'd be inclined to listen to them.

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

Why would they bother manipulating the machines, they'd get the same amount of cattle if they offered 10 -20c/kg less with the same effect.

Why do plants over trim carcasses. For a few reasons it gives old fart an excuse to blame the younger and part time farmers. The truth is it gives them competitive advantage. It also allows them to boast that they are paying a fair price even if grading is screwing the system. I know one or two factory's were at having breed bonus killing days. A few lads started sending there Herefords and AA bullocks on normal days because of the grading. It allows them to access prime beef at cow price at times while seeming to be paying a top cow price

riemann wrote: »

That's just absolute nonsense. If you have any proof of this I'd be very interested to read it.

On the other hand, if it's all based on hearsay and anecdotes you'd be better served concentrating on what's under your control as opposed to complaining and moaning.

A cartel doesn't need to manipulate grading machines when they set the price.

Was it in the late noughties that the Dawn plant I think in Waterford was caught with there fingers in the till.

Mooooo

Said it before here, cow's that a couple years ago would have made o are all p now.

Aravo

Had something similar with a lamb recently. Only payed for half a lamb. Rest not used. Queried it as the info provided was lacking and then they provided a letter signed by a vet. But the vet had such poor writing you could not tell who signed it (local vets, so it's likely I may know them) and the description for discarding was very poor. In such circumstances should the lamb be kept to one side for a few days so farmer can inspect same.

wrangler

Aravo wrote: »

Had something similar with a lamb recently. Only payed for half a lamb. Rest not used. Queried it as the info provided was lacking and then they provided a letter signed by a vet. But the vet had such poor writing you could not tell who signed it (local vets, so it's likely I may know them) and the description for discarding was very poor. In such circumstances should the lamb be kept to one side for a few days so farmer can inspect same.

That lamb would've been rejected by a department vet,nothing to do with the factory I doubt you'd even be allowed to bring it home if you thought you could eat it yourself.,
Skipped immediately I'd say

greysides

Aravo wrote: »

Had something similar with a lamb recently. Only payed for half a lamb. Rest not used. Queried it as the info provided was lacking and then they provided a letter signed by a vet. But the vet had such poor writing you could not tell who signed it (local vets, so it's likely I may know them) and the description for discarding was very poor. In such circumstances should the lamb be kept to one side for a few days so farmer can inspect same.

Reasons for halving a lamb carcase are usually an abscess. Forequarters, a back (spinal or injection site) abcess or inner chest abscess (associated with pneumonia). Hindquarters, a back/spinal or pelvic abscess.

The condemned portion becomes Category 1 waste and must be disposed off.

As wrangler says, its a decision made by vets independent of the factory.

Aravo

wrangler wrote:

That lamb would've been rejected by a department vet,nothing to do with the factory I doubt you'd even be allowed to bring it home if you thought you could eat it yourself., Skipped immediately I'd say

Is there dept vets and factory vets working doing the same thing. I know there is a local vet looking at lambs as they are unloaded. There is another local vet looking at the lambs on the line. Only half the lamb rejected. No inspection period to see for yourself. Basically take our word for it. No photographs to accompany letter. No call this no. If you have any queries. Letter not issued by department. All suitably vague. All lambs are dosed, weighed individually, good eye kept on them. So was naturally suspicious. But maybe it was my turn to get screwed.

wrangler

Aravo wrote: »

Is there dept vets and factory vets working doing the same thing. I know there is a local vet looking at lambs as they are unloaded. There is another local vet looking at the lambs on the line. Only half the lamb rejected. No inspection period to see for yourself. Basically take our word for it. No photographs to accompany letter. No call this no. If you have any queries. Letter not issued by department. All suitably vague. All lambs are dosed, weighed individually, good eye kept on them. So was naturally suspicious. But maybe it was my turn to get screwed.

local vets would be paid by Dept of AG, They're independent, they're hardly likely to condemn half a lamb just for the hell of it.

Every farmer should see their stock being killed once or twice a year.......might be an eyeopener.
With this wet weather now it will be difficult to have clean lambs.........have to say that farmers are putting more effort into presentation this year

Aravo

wrangler wrote:

local vets would be paid by Dept of AG, They're independent, they're hardly likely to condemn half a lamb just for the hell of it.

My payslip shows that the farmer pays the vets. It's the vagueness of the notification that's the main issue. Maybe a letter with a photo showing what was found should be provided. Traceability it seems is only a one way street.

Willfarman

If there’s a worse crowd than the Black and Tans it’s them vets on the the factory line. The lamb must of been a joint I’ll survivor or something, It pains me but I agree with Rangler in this case.

Base price

For anyone that is interested here is a link to the EU legislation re the use of VIA's
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2003:169:0032:0036:EN:PDF

greysides

Aravo wrote: »

My payslip shows that the farmer pays the vets. It's the vagueness of the notification that's the main issue. Maybe a letter with a photo showing what was found should be provided. Traceability it seems is only a one way street.

Follow your lambs up the line. See what happens. It might surprise you as to what apparently healthy carcases can hide. Ask about fluke in the liver while you're there. A line moves fast, there's no time for photos. It's easier to have a carcase go by as it's fine than to be halving it. It's not done for fun and a condemnation cert is signed and co-signed by vets independent of the factory. Why would the factory deliberately halve a good carcase?

Track9

Surely its time to Stand Up & Fight .
Do as the French & South Americans do .
Lightning Blockades , or as In S America , ev one goes to the factory with one scrawny cow . Slowing down the Line wrecks the factory system.

KAMG

Well at least i'm not the only one feeling aggrieved. I sent my last couple of bullocks to the factory recently and was absolutely disgusted with the grades received. I cannot prove it obviously but I know myself I was done badly. A farmer knows his own cattle. I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything like it but 3 other people seen these cattle in the couple of days before they were brought off and they all agree with me.

Willfarman

What kind of cattle and where did you go? What did they grade?

Anto_Meath

Allowing the factories grade the animals is basically a game of poker, but there is noting that can be done about it only hope the banker is honest. I would notice around me people, (us included) go to 3 different factories, you kinda have to pick your animals for each factory to try and get the best grading. 1 factory appears to grade every Fr bullock as a P, where as you would get a fair selection of Os in the other two. But it is the best factory for price always a few cent above the others so what you lose one way you probably gain in another, in another one you cant have animals fat enough for them, very rear to see anything grade above a 4= with them. Where as the one that doesn't like the Fr would be liable to stick a 5 on anything fatty looking at all. The third one gives the bonus for AA's & He's but can be very tight on price and really nail you on anything out of spec.
Regarding the mechanical grading machines, they are just a computer and as we all know computers are very easy to manipulate, darken or brighten the lights a degree probably moves the grade up or down a place. If there is a trick to it all then you can bet the factories know it.

KAMG

Hereford bullocks. Graded P plus. All their comrades graded O plus and O equals. And they were very similar. Don't get bord bia bonus either. Weighted between 350 and 360 kilos at 28/29 months.

Bass Reeves

KAMG wrote: »

Hereford bullocks. Graded P plus. All their comrades graded O plus and O equals. And they were very similar. Don't get bord bia bonus either. Weighted between 350 and 360 kilos at 28/29 months.

Not only do you not get the QA you also fail to get the HE bonus as well. That is a cut of 37c/kg if those cattle graded O=/O+ and about 135 euro/head.I have had narrow AA and HE cattle in my time but not one ever graded worse than O- and any that ant did usually had something else wrong with them like they got peunomia at some stage

KAMG

Cheque still hadn't arrived by Friday morning either so I don't know about the HE Bonus. I had worked out I was down approx 170e. That's another thing that annoys the hell out of me. Why does it take over a week to receive the cheque? Like I said I'm no expert. I'm only a part timer really but I don't like feeling like I have been take to the cleaners. Which is how I feel. I'm glad I don't rely on this craic for a living.

charolais0153

KAMG wrote: »

Cheque still hadn't arrived by Friday morning either so I don't know about the HE Bonus. I had worked out I was down approx 170e. That's another thing that annoys the hell out of me. Why does it take over a week to receive the cheque? Like I said I'm no expert. I'm only a part timer really but I don't like feeling like I have been take to the cleaners. Which is how I feel. I'm glad I don't rely on this craic for a living.

Ya sell most of our sheep and cattle to the one plant. Could be waiting over 10 days for cattle cheque and sheep one comes 2 days later always

Willfarman

KAMG wrote: »

Hereford bullocks. Graded P plus. All their comrades graded O plus and O equals. And they were very similar. Don't get bord bia bonus either. Weighted between 350 and 360 kilos at 28/29 months.

I got a p- 3+ on a good but perhaps a bit under finished friesian bullock in August. Slaney meats again.... a grade I’ve never seen or heard before. What is a bad jersey or extreme Holstein then?

Bass Reeves

Willfarman wrote: »

I got a p- 3+ on a good but perhaps a bit under finished friesian bullock in August. Slaney meats again.... a grade I’ve never seen or heard before. What is a bad jersey or extreme Holstein then?

A bad one P= most make P+ and even had them O-. Had one once that graded R as a Bull at 23 months and 270kgsDW. He was a ball of meat

CloughCasey1

KAMG wrote: »

Hereford bullocks. Graded P plus. All their comrades graded O plus and O equals. And they were very similar. Don't get bord bia bonus either. Weighted between 350 and 360 kilos at 28/29 months.

Thats bollox. Ive 2 bony Hex (twins) neary ready for going here. Big framey beasts. Prob the worst hex ive had to look at but are heavy. Worst finish (my own fault) ive had on hex were o- on young underdone 23mt old stock. Those two will test that limit but will be over 29mts hanging!! Never seen a P on any cattle here yet and that includes FR. Still dont expect anything worse than O- on these 2.

Nobbies

I too have thought for at least a while now that my cattle weren't grading as well as in the past.was generally quite happy with grades from 2012 through to 2015.something has changed and i don't believe it's the cattle. all to abp here.