fat adapted

freddie1970

Can you train your body to become more fat adapted with out keto ..
I trying to reduce carbs ( I have cut out grains and potatoes rice and pasta )..I still get carbs from veg and fruit but want to train my body to use fat more

silverharp

some kind of fasting or intermittent fasting perhaps. I'd be reasonably fat adapted but I don't go out of my way to eat high fat food.

ford2600

http://sigmanutrition.com/episode86/

This is good.

Short hand and depending on your goals the following should help
*cut junk foods completely from diet
*cutting the carbs you have is fine, but don't be shy having a little after intense exercise
*intermittent fast; just eat two meals a day; lunch and dinner. Maybe start with one/two day a week
*try an occasional 24 hr fast once you get comfortable at intermittent fasting.
*drink water when you feel hungry in initial stages.


There is a myth out there than hunger is always triggered by low blood sugar; we have a lot of various cues which trigger appetite and they vary between each individual. It's rarely low blood glucose. You won't die drink the water and you'll be grand.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2016/09/do-blood-glucose-levels-affect-hunger.html

RiderOnTheStorm

freddie1970 wrote: »

Can you train your body to become more fat adapted with out keto ..
I trying to reduce carbs ( I have cut out grains and potatoes rice and pasta )..I still get carbs from veg and fruit but want to train my body to use fat more

No. If you are eating more than 20-50g of carbs a day, you cannot get fat adapted. Fat Adapted is when your body burns fat because it doesnt have sugar or carbs to burn. If you feed your body carbs, it will burn them first and store the fat for later. If you feed it only fat, it has no choice but to burn fat. By all means cut down on carbs, eat healthier, exercise .... Its all good. But you wont be fat adapted, and the only way to get there is by a keto diet.

Magnatu

You will become fat adapted if you train your body to burn fat instead of glycogen. You could do this by keeping carbs very low but would be easier by fasting. At least 20 hours plus till glycogen store s are depleted regularly.
The more often you do it the more natural the switch will become.

mathie

RiderOnTheStorm wrote: »

No. If you are eating more than 20-50g of carbs a day, you cannot get fat adapted. Fat Adapted is when your body burns fat because it doesnt have sugar or carbs to burn. If you feed your body carbs, it will burn them first and store the fat for later. If you feed it only fat, it has no choice but to burn fat. By all means cut down on carbs, eat healthier, exercise .... Its all good. But you wont be fat adapted, and the only way to get there is by a keto diet.

That's factually incorrect for reasons Magnatu explained.

Mellor

mathie wrote: »

That's factually incorrect for reasons Magnatu explained.

How does it make it incorrect though?
Fasting depletes glycogen, and forces you to become fat adapted but that still putting you into a state of ketosis.

It may be possible to become fat adapted while avoiding Ketosis. But I'm not sure how.
But, "fat adapted" is a fairly hard to define anyway.

mathie

Mellor wrote: »

How does it make it incorrect though?
Fasting depletes glycogen, and forces you to become fat adapted but that still putting you into a state of ketosis.

It may be possible to become fat adapted while avoiding Ketosis. But I'm not sure how.
But, "fat adapted" is a fairly hard to define anyway.

RiderOnTheStorm said to "be fat adapted" "the only way to get there is by a keto diet."

That is factually incorrect.
You can become fat adapted via any diet. Just don't eat for long enough and you'll start to burn fat.

Agreed about the definition of "fat adapted" but I would take it to mean using fat primarily as a fuel source.

Mellor

mathie wrote: »

That is factually incorrect.

You can become fat adapted via any diet. Just don't eat for long enough and you'll start to burn fat.

If you fast for long enough, yes you will become fat adapted, but you'll also be in ketosis. So I don't see how it makes it incorrect.

mathie

Mellor wrote: »

If you fast for long enough, yes you will become fat adapted, but you'll also be in ketosis. So I don't see how it makes it incorrect.

I think you're playing semantics now?

The statement "the only way to get there is by a keto diet" is factually incorrect.

Unless you consider a non-keto diet which involves fasting to be a keto diet?
I think you're complicating the matter.

Mellor

mathie wrote: »

The statement "the only way to get there is by a keto diet" is factually incorrect.

No it isn't. Or to be specific, nothing you've said make it incorrect.
Putting "factually" in doesn't change that.

Unless you consider a non-keto diet which involves fasting to be a keto diet?
I think you're complicating the matter.

Fasting for the purposes of getting into ketosis (fat adaption) is Keto. How can a fast be non-Keto?
Ketosis is the only real definition of Keto.

Repeated extended fasts is basically a cyclic ketogenic diet.
The more you do it, the quicker you'll switch to ketosis, and longer you spend in ketosis, the more fat adapted you'll be.

ford2600

Non keto people burn fat and glycogen all the time at the same time, with the amounts of each individual uses of each primarily decided by intensity. The typical goal of "fat adaptation" is to increase the percentage of fat used and sparing of glycogen at sub circa 70% VO2 max.

There are lots of studies (like the one below) hat have looked at this. You can increase fat usage and spare glycogen without switching to a keto diet of starving yourself.


https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00907.2010


In this study we investigated the effect of a 6-wk supervised endurance training program under tight dietary control, on some metabolic adaptations in relation to exercise. The training program was successful in improving V̇o2max (+9%), FATmax (+6–21%), as well as 60-min time trial performance (+8%). In addition, muscle capillary density (+10%) was increased. However, half of the subjects consistently performed the training sessions in the fasted state (F), while the others performed identical sessions in conjunction with ample carbohydrate intake before and during exercise (CHO). The data demonstrate that F, more than CHO, enhanced the contribution of IMCL to energy provision during fasting exercise. Moreover, F was more potent to stimulate CS and β-HAD activities than CHO. Finally, drop of blood glucose concentration during fasting exercise was prevented by F, but not by CHO

Mellor

ford2600 wrote: »

Non keto people burn fat and glycogen all the time at the same time,

Burning fat doesn't mean adapted though.
You'd burn body fat eating only refined sugar, if you stay in calorie deficit.

with the amounts of each individual uses of each primarily decided by intensity

Also decided by the amount of body fat you have. The more fat mass you have, the more fat you can metabolise. That's why an very obese person can survive on virtually no food with the weight falling off.
And a very lean person sheds the last fat very slowly.

Keto/Fasting//Fat adaption may help increase the rate. But maybe not, could be genetic.

The typical goal of "fat adaptation" is to increase the percentage of fat used and sparing of glycogen at sub circa 70% VO2 max.

There are lots of studies (like the one below) hat have looked at this. You can increase fat usage and spare glycogen without switching to a keto diet of starving yourself.

That fat adaption definition makes sense for distance athletes. Not sure how it would apply to high intensity activities. Or even people who just want to lose weight.

ford2600

Mellor wrote: »

Burning fat doesn't mean adapted though.

Where did I say it did??


No one mentioned losing weight.

"can you fat adapt without eating keto" is basic OP

My answer is yes you can and showed a sample study to demonstrate it and originally a discussion on sigma nutrition with Mike T Nelson on the very specific question.

In 4 posts you have added nothing to OP yet you are still here going around in circles with @mathie. No wonder this forum is a sh1t show

Mellor

ford2600 wrote: »

Where did I say it did??

And where did I say you said it?

[quite]No one mentioned losing weight.[/quote]
A not insignificant amount of people I hear talking about fat adaption are chasing weight loss. I never said anyone here mentioned it.

"can you fat adapt without eating keto" is basic OP

My answer is yes you can and showed a sample study to demonstrate it.

In my post above, I acknowledged it could be possible, I was pointing out that fasting still triggers ketosis. I don't know what's hard to grasp about that.

Which part of the studying do you thing proves the faster athletes are "fat adapted". I haven't read it in detail. But fasted athletes burning more fat than carb loaded athletes is kinda expected even without fat adaption.

Also, did rates change over the course of the study or was the difference prevalent from day 1?

In 4 posts you have added nothing to OP yet you are still here going around in circles with @mathie. No wonder this forum is a sh1t show

I don't think pointing out possible flaws in thinking nothing. If you do that's your opinion. But object discussion is kind the point of the forum.

I feel like we've a similar conversation before. Where you made claims about endurance athletes. And you got salty when it was shown to be incorrect. Shïtshow indeed.

ford2600

Mellor wrote: »

I feel like we've a similar conversation before. Where you made claims about endurance athletes. And you got salty when it was shown to be incorrect. Shïtshow indeed.

I could care less about your vague "feelings", or vague claims I made and you were correct of course. :rolleyes:

I generally only get salty with irritating ***** but I can't remember specifically so don't know if that was you or not, but sure you feel "we" have had some discussion before so that's grand.

Read the study, listen to the podcast maybe, have a look at Google Scholar maybe before adding to now 5 posts without adding anything worthwhile to a very specific OP.

Or maybe keep moving goal posts to suit yourself and you'll find a 3rd poster to have a row with. Either way I'll be hitting unfollow. My money would be on a 6th post though...

Mellor

ford2600 wrote: »

Or maybe keep moving goal posts to suit yourself and you'll find a 3rd poster to have a row with. Either way I'll be hitting unfollow. My money would be on a 6th post though...

Feel free to unfollow, no need to be a toddler about it though.
No goal posts moved.bI asked you a simple questions. The fact you won't answer suggests the study isn't worth the effort. Sorry if that ruins you wee bubble.