VHI allowing genetic testing already?

paleoperson

Did I just wake up to a dystopia or something?

So based on an ad I just saw, VHI are now being allowed to use genetic testing just like that? There's no controversy, no mass protests, no big placards? No ethics and regulations committees, no dail debates? Where's the protesting? Not even a debate?

Isn't this the sort of thing being feared of happening for decades? It seems like we're just sleepwalking into a eugenics based-society. This is going to result in both suffering and the eventual wiping out of all of all our genes. It all seems like another tool in the armoury of the haves and have-nots. For pity's sake, think about what you are giving away.

I have a major dislike of health insurance companies, particularly VH1, but this seems to be just taking the piss.

Kevin Finnerty

Which ad? Any link?

TheValeyard

I have not heard of this?

paleoperson

Kevin Finnerty wrote: »

Which ad? Any link?

As if a nice old man is going to be talking about genetic superiority.

Where is the controversy and argument over this? Are Irish regulators really so dumb that they just allow this without thinking much about it?! Wouldn't be surprised if there was a revolving door system or something similar going on.

The Satanist

Crush the weak, I like this.

wakka12

I dont understand, what are they testing people for? And what are they attempting to do with the results? How is it eugenics?

Eugenics is a very loaded term because of its use during much less equal times in history, if it means eliminating horrible illnesses for future generations then so what

puppieperson1

i am sure they are doing it so they can charge you more and share all the genetic material with law enforcement agencies.

Big brother is coming - tesco know what you have for dinner vhi know your genetic potential and when youll die face book know what you do & who your friends are. Google and your smart phone knows where you go and how you think. alexa listens to all your conversations your tv is spying on you too every digital photo can be attributed to you ..... we are no longer FREE.

Prison planet bring on the apocalypse..........:(

paleoperson

wakka12 wrote: »

I dont understand, what are they testing people for? And what are they attempting to do with the results? How is it eugenics?

The way it is now everyone goes to a health insurance provider with a clean slate - everyone takes an equal proportion of the risk so has an equal price, based on their age, occupation, family history and a few other factors - this is all kind of repulsive as well if you ask me, we should be treated as equally as is feasibly possible, especially when it comes to health.

Now they're taking it further and putting out genetic testing, so depending on what genes you have, you get a higher or lower premium to pay.

Hoboo

Peter Casey must be a major shareholder. Im loving it.

Triceratops Ballet

When my mother was diagnosed with cancer they did investigations to see if it was a genetic form of cancer, if it had been me and my sister would have been offered testing. This was nearly 10 years ago and on the public system. Its not new.

EdgeCase

It's for hereditary cancers. Handy to know if you're at risk, but also hope the insurance industry doesn't use it to load premiums.

paleoperson

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

When my mother was diagnosed with cancer they did investigations to see if it was a genetic form of cancer, if it had been me and my sister would have been offered testing. This was nearly 10 years ago and on the public system. Its not new.

If it's the public system it wouldn't have affected you financially? Yes the testing has been around, but not the routine loading of premiums depending on your genes as far as I'm aware. This seems like a new age we're entering into where lucky people get even wealthier.

Instinctively, the op is probably correct and the control and use of this sort of testing should concern us all.

However, I would like to have the knowledge about my genes and inherited conditions that could help make better decisions at some point in the future.

Triceratops Ballet

paleoperson wrote: »

If it's the public system it wouldn't have affected you financially? Yes the testing has been around, but not the routine loading of premium's depending on your genes as far as I'm aware. This seems like a new age we're entering into where lucky people get even wealthier.

Good point. I wonder though would the labs who do the testing be precluded from sharing the info with insurers under doctor patient confidentiality rules?

4068ac1elhodqr

Even worse is the casual 'Ancestry' research type companies, they may keep your lovely spit for a decade or so, and sell it on to bigPharma if they so feel inclined.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/dna-testing-delete-your-data-23andme-ancestry-2018-7

Raylan Fast Swordsman

Raylan Fast Swordsman wrote: »

Even worse is the casual 'Ancestry' research type companies, they may keep your lovely spit for a decade or so, and sell it on to bigPharma if they so feel inclined.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/dna-testing-delete-your-data-23andme-ancestry-2018-7

And frightening undiscovered murderers, who find police calling to their door because a relative did a DNA test and it's close to that of their chief suspect.

DNA profiles from ancestry websites helped identify the Golden State Killer suspect

LETHAL LADY

Deleted User wrote: »

And frightening undiscovered murderers, who find police calling to their door because a relative did a DNA test and it's close to that of their chief suspect.

DNA profiles from ancestry websites helped identify the Golden State Killer suspect

You read my mind or DNA!

mvl

Is this about direct to consumer genetic testing, or is it about healthcare provider regulated genetic testing ?

- appears legislation in EU varies on this, some countries are more protected than others.

Kevin Finnerty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Instinctively, the op is probably correct and the control and use of this sort of testing should concern us all.

However, I would like to have the knowledge about my genes and inherited conditions that could help make better decisions at some point in the future.

Me too#.

Ah the good times.

RobertKK

Raylan Fast Swordsman wrote: »

Even worse is the casual 'Ancestry' research type companies, they may keep your lovely spit for a decade or so, and sell it on to bigPharma if they so feel inclined.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/dna-testing-delete-your-data-23andme-ancestry-2018-7

Yeah to be used to find cures, how awful.

Ipso

paleoperson wrote: »

Did I just wake up to a dystopia or something?

So based on an ad I just saw, VHI are now being allowed to use genetic testing just like that? There's no controversy, no mass protests, no big placards? No ethics and regulations committees, no dail debates? Where's the protesting? Not even a debate?

Isn't this the sort of thing being feared of happening for decades? It seems like we're just sleepwalking into a eugenics based-society. This is going to result in both suffering and the eventual wiping out of all of all our genes. It all seems like another tool in the armoury of the haves and have-nots. For pity's sake, think about what you are giving away.

I have a major dislike of health insurance companies, particularly VH1, but this seems to be just taking the piss.

Eugenics? Wiping out genes?
At least you didn’t get hysterical.

squawker

its fcuking Gattaca

Run for the hills!!!

OldMrBrennan83

Hoboo wrote: »

Peter Casey must be a major shareholder. Im loving it.

Is he the new stock reply to everything?

Who shot JFK? Peter Casey HAHAHA.

Gimme A Pound

paleoperson wrote: »

This is going to result in both suffering and the eventual wiping out of all of all our genes.

It is?

I have a major dislike of health insurance companies, particularly VH1

Why? And why particularly VH I (not 1)?

puppieperson1 wrote: »

i am sure they are doing it so they can charge you more and share all the genetic material with law enforcement agencies.

Big brother is coming - tesco know what you have for dinner vhi know your genetic potential and when youll die face book know what you do & who your friends are. Google and your smart phone knows where you go and how you think. alexa listens to all your conversations your tv is spying on you too every digital photo can be attributed to you ..... we are no longer FREE.

Prison planet bring on the apocalypse..........:(

Thought you were joking at first. All of the above of course is being forced on you.

Love tinfoil hatters.

And to answer the OP's question as to why there isn't uproar - nobody is being forced into it, and people didn't know about it, just like you didn't until you saw the ad only yesterday.

What's this stuff too about the gap between the haves and have nots? Damn those people on good money who worked their asses off for years to get there eh?

paleoperson

Don't get saucy with me Gimme A Pound, I was going to answer some of your questions but you're too sarcastic and nonsensical. Make sure you have a right laugh to yourself with your head in the sand in your delusions as other people are trying to go over real issues in the world.

Gimme A Pound

Sarcastic yes, nonsensical no.

None of this is being forced on anyone by this private company - why the confidence that this means doom? And why do you bring up on this and another thread the haves and have nots? What's the relevance?

Ireland is not like America. Crooks aside, people who make a lot of money work extremely hard for it. Money doesn't just land at your feet. And they pay a good chunk of tax. There is a social welfare system which ensures far better support than in other countries.

Potential-Monke

I can see the OPs point to a degree. If they use this to load premiums I'm against it. I already have to pay for everyone else to have medical cover for their pregnancies and children, even though I don't ever intend on having them, but tough, I have to pay it to make it more affordable for people who make that choice. I don't trust health insurance companies, but good thing we have the GDPR, so after your genetic test you can tell them to delete everything to do with you!

Guy:Incognito

Daniel Flat Memorial wrote: »

It is?

Why? And why particularly VH I (not 1)?

Maybe he's confused and its actually the music channel he hates.

AndrewJRenko

The Disability Act 2005 covers genetic testing, though I'm not sure that the 'regulations' under the Data Protection Acts envisaged have ever come through:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/14/enacted/en/print#part4

I'm fairly sure that the review of that section of the Act by 2014 hasn't come through.

dxhound2005

Patww79 wrote: »

Is he the new stock reply to everything?

Who shot JFK? Peter Casey HAHAHA.

Some people seem to think it was me. I have been asked a few times where I was when he was shot.

I do see the issue if they use it to decline claims for stuff that could have been a genetic predisposition and that opens up a whole can of worms

Cleopatra_

Meh. I have Cystic Fibrosis. The only reason I managed to get VHI was because my parents got it for me before I was diagnosed. When I was in the UK I couldn't get health insurance with a pre-existing medical condition. Also happens to be genetic. It's sh1tty but what can you do.

_Whimsical_

Cleopatra_ wrote: »

Meh. I have Cystic Fibrosis. The only reason I managed to get VHI was because my parents got it for me before I was diagnosed. When I was in the UK I couldn't get health insurance with a pre-existing medical condition. Also happens to be genetic. It's sh1tty but what can you do.

You can get health insurance if you have a preexisting condition and you don't have to pay an extra premium.
You will have to serve a 5 year waiting period however for any expenses directly related to your condition though.
So if your condition was severe arthritis before getting insurance no hospitalisations etc would be covered for you for 5 years if they were arthritis related, but if you broke your arm/got cancer/ need your appendix out all that would be covered.
That sucks of course if you do have an illness though.

I don't think what VHI are offering here is genetic testing to determine susceptibility to illness. I think it's genetic testing to determine what treatment will give the best chance of success based on certain aspects of your genetic makeup. That can be done in certain cancers, definitely breast cancer, and it's a very positive development. This is nothing like, or even approaching, eugenics.

Purple Mountain

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I don't think what VHI are offering here is genetic testing to determine susceptibility to illness. I think it's genetic testing to determine what treatment will give the best chance of success based on certain aspects of your genetic makeup. That can be done in certain cancers, definitely breast cancer, and it's a very positive development. This is nothing like, or even approaching, eugenics.

That's my take on it anyway.

Gimme A Pound

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I don't think what VHI are offering here is genetic testing to determine susceptibility to illness. I think it's genetic testing to determine what treatment will give the best chance of success based on certain aspects of your genetic makeup. That can be done in certain cancers, definitely breast cancer, and it's a very positive development. This is nothing like, or even approaching, eugenics.

Aye. Some people prefer to believe it's a sinister development though, and something something big pharma.

I received genetic testing for a hereditary cancer. Before testing I was told that's not legal for insurance companies to request results of genetic tests (not sure if that was under Irish or EU law). Not sure how that works if you're accessing genetic testing through your insurance company, but I suspect it is probably illegal for them to increase premiums on the basis of genetic results.

paleoperson

Gimme A Pound what is your deal? Are you actually an adult for a reasonable period?

I'm here talking about a sensitive and important issue and here you are pulling out the "tinfoil hat" namecalling and sarcastically saying "big pharma". I suggest you have a bit of cop on to yourself please, you're impressing noone. It's great to make fun of the "big pharma" people - until it turns out they were right all along and it's now been well-established by people like Ben Goldacre how bad pharmaceutical companies have been behaving and what they've gotten away with over the years. It would be a bit like saying "Catholic conspiracy"... yeah sure, a big conspiracy that the catholic church has behaved badly right? I'm aware that After Hours is considered a non-serious forum, but where else are you going to get this amount of views and replies within a short period about an Irish issue?

Ipso

You’re the one who invoked eugenics and wiping out genes (whatever that is) about medical tests, it’s up to you to substantiate your claims.

scuby

paleoperson wrote:

So based on an ad I just saw, VHI are now being allowed to use genetic testing just like that? There's no controversy, no mass protests, no big placards? No ethics and regulations committees, no dail debates? Where's the protesting? Not even a debate?

paleoperson wrote:

If it's the public system it wouldn't have affected you financially? Yes the testing has been around, but not the routine loading of premiums depending on your genes as far as I'm aware. This seems like a new age we're entering into where lucky people get even wealthier.

What a load of crap... health insurance companies can't charge more if your sick or have a medical condition. Look up community rating.
Also, pre-emptive knowledge about genetic conditions in your family might actually help save your life if you are predisposed to certain hereditary cancers etc
Put the tin foil hat and mass demos away ! If your the only one so worried about it based on replies here....
Live long & prosper !!

AndrewJRenko

scuby wrote: »

What a load of crap... health insurance companies can't charge more if your sick or have a medical condition. Look up community rating.
Also, pre-emptive knowledge about genetic conditions in your family might actually help save your life if you are predisposed to certain hereditary cancers etc
Put the tin foil hat and mass demos away ! If your the only one so worried about it based on replies here....
Live long & prosper !!

What happens if a future Government decides that community rating isn't quite so important after all? Your insurance company now has information about your genetics.

scuby

AndrewJRenko wrote:

What happens if a future Government decides that community rating isn't quite so important after all? Your insurance company now has information about your genetics.

Doubt it could be applied retrospectively, like any changes to an insurance policy..
Also the number of people with insurance will drop due to cost, and end up on public lists overcrowding what's already a swamped public system.

I'd be more worried about what some people put up on social media about their lifestyle, than people having a test being proactive about their health.

Early intervention is cheaper and easier than finding out something too late.

AndrewJRenko

scuby wrote: »

Doubt it could be applied retrospectively, like any changes to an insurance policy..
Also the number of people with insurance will drop due to cost, and end up on public lists overcrowding what's already a swamped public system.

I'd be more worried about what some people put up on social media about their lifestyle, than people having a test being proactive about their health.

Early intervention is cheaper and easier than finding out something too late.

It wouldn't be retrospective, but it would be going forward - let's say the community rating is dropped in five years time, then people who have given their genetic information could find themselves facing much higher premiums after that.


And yes, that could push people back onto public system, just as happened during the recession years when many people were unable to keep their health insurance going.


You have a point about social media and early intervention. For anything to do with genetic information, you'd want to know what could happen to your data in the future.

wakka12

Its very cynical to think that genetic testing will be turned against us. More likely itll be used to screen for certain diseases and early prevention to save lives, this is a fair and just country, unethical misuse of large scale genetic results wouldnt be permitted

Sciprio

This will be taken advandaged over time. Screen for testing? Sorry you have an 85% chance of getting this illness so your premium will cost more. They'll also have your DNA so could find out what you are suppectible to, Maybe bribe you if in future if you become a politician/well know and don't bow to popular demands, news reporter with intimate details? Christ! He/She died from a nut allergy, what a shame.:pac:

Ray Palmer

paleoperson wrote: »

Now they're taking it further and putting out genetic testing, so depending on what genes you have, you get a higher or lower premium to pay.

Except you are ignoring the fact we live in Ireland and it is illegal to do that. You have read this and believe we live in the US where they can which is where the argument comes from.

Gene testing under VHI is so you an get medial treatment earlier which saves on their costs. You are making up a situation that can't happen in Ireland. I think it is also an EU rule too.

AndrewJRenko

While not quite the same scenario, this article outlines some of the dangers involved;

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/don-t-buy-online-dna-ancestry-tests-you-are-the-real-product-1.3713619