Sex Offenders law - comparison

margaret_87

Hi all,

I'm a polish lawyer, and I'm writing a thesis about Sex Offenders in Poland and Ireland- kind of comparison, but can't really call it like that as your law is totally different, anyway - I have spent hours reading Acts, forums and websites. Still not sure about few things.

Is here someone who know how it works? I mean how Ireland brings Acts into life? It is very complicated for me..
Sex Offenders Amendment Bill is still under discussion, right?
The newest Sex Offender Act is from 2017?

Please can I have some questions to someone who works with sexual offenders?

Thanks a million!

Edit: I have chosen Ireland as I used to live in Greystones, Co Wicklow and my heart is still there

hullaballoo

I've never really understood what people see in Greystones tbh but that might be a familiarity issue more then anything.

As for the substantive part of your query, can you ask specifically what you are looking to know? Is it just about the legislative process here or more about the offences themselves. Plenty of lawyers here on this forum have a strong academic interest in all kinds of criminal offences including sexual offences.

margaret_87

Doesn't matter where I used to live, the whole country is stunning.
Anyway- thanks for reply, I will quickly explain how polish legal system works in criminal cases. We have a numer of codes in polish system (criminal, penal, civil, administrative etc), criminal code says what penalty will be or can be given for committing a certain crime. Court has to pass judgment following this code.

And my questions are;
1. How legislative process looks like in Ireland? my main problem is that I can't understand when Acts and Bill are implemented, when the new law comes into effect? for example - Sex Offenders act from 2017 - is the whole Act implemented? or are there any articles still not implemented?

2. How your legal system works? As far as I know you don't have a criminal code? So how do you know what penalty is for committing a certain crime? Where can I find some info about this?

3. Was the Sex Offenders Act from 2001 the first legal document about sexual offenses?

4. Therapy - is there only one program for Sex Offenders? The Building Better Lives (BBL)?

5. On irishprisons.ie I have found a doc called "Sex Offender Management Policy, 2009" - is it up to date? Can I get my knowledge from there as well?

If you have some articles or other publications in pdf or doc - I would be grateful if you can share with me.

thanks again,

Victor

Two important websites:
https://www.oireachtas.ie/ - parliament
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ - the law

The process by which the 2001 act was adopted, including parliamentary debates: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2000/2/

Current status of the 2001 act: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/isbc/2001_18.html

margaret_87 wrote: »

Sex Offenders Amendment Bill is still under discussion, right?
The newest Sex Offender Act is from 2017?

Given that you aren't used to our system, it might be important for you to specify exactly which bills / acts you are talking about.

The Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2017 has been passed: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/act/2/enacted/en/html The status of individual sections is here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/isbc/2017_2.html

The Sex Offenders (Amendment) Bill 2018 has not been passed by the Oireachtas and is not part of the law yet. https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/find-bills-and-acts/?billType=all&keyword=Sex%20Offenders&year=&sortBy=billNumber As it is sponsored by an opposition politician, it is unlikely to proceed quickly.

margaret_87 wrote: »

I will quickly explain how polish legal system works in criminal cases. We have a numer of codes in polish system (criminal, penal, civil, administrative etc), criminal code says what penalty will be or can be given for committing a certain crime. Court has to pass judgment following this code.

There is no single code. There is a collection of acts dealing with criminal matters. For certain crimes, there is only one act to consider. For others, that act may have been amended many times (this is done because the basic act is good law and the legal system is used to using it, but it can be oppressive for people outside the system). Occasionally, where there are multiple acts, these will be consolidated into a single act. Some acts have been restated, with the original text and all amendments put into one document - however, this is usually an administrative convenience, not a guarantee of the current state of the law.

And my questions are;
1. How legislative process looks like in Ireland? my main problem is that I can't understand when Acts and Bill are implemented, when the new law comes into effect? for example - Sex Offenders act from 2017 - is the whole Act implemented? or are there any articles still not implemented?

When an act is passed, there are three options (1) the act can state when it comes into effect; (2) the act can state that a government minister may designate a date by formal order for the act (or part thereof) to come into effect (this is done where there is a substantial administrative burden that must be completed first, e.g. when speed limits were change to metric, 25,000+ signs were needed to be bought and erected); or (3) in the absence of 1 or 2, the act comes into effect 'immediately'. In practice, 'immediately' means once the president signs it and it is published in Iris Oifigiúil (the state gazette).

2. How your legal system works? As far as I know you don't have a criminal code? So how do you know what penalty is for committing a certain crime? Where can I find some info about this?

Each act will specify a penalty or penalties - fines, prison, penalty points, forfeiture, etc. Note that there is a Fines Act 2010 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/8/enacted/en/html that updates the fines stated in old acts. There are sentencing guidelines that judges use when sentencing a convicted person, e.g. if you plead guilty early and cooperate with the prosecution you will get a lighter sentence than if you don't. there has been talk of formalising these guidelines. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_trial/sentence.html

3. Was the Sex Offenders Act from 2001 the first legal document about sexual offenses?

I think it was the first to deal with the offenders. However, there were many previous acts which dealt with sex offences and certain matters were/are offences at common law. For example Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1935: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1935/act/6/enacted/en/html Note that the legislation directory goes back to the year 1169.

4. Therapy - is there only one program for Sex Offenders? The Building Better Lives (BBL)?

You would need to check with the Prison Service / Probation Service.

https://www.irishprisons.ie/contact/
http://www.probation.ie/en/PB/officecontactspage?readform

5. On irishprisons.ie I have found a doc called "Sex Offender Management Policy, 2009" - is it up to date? Can I get my knowledge from there as well?

You would need to check with the Prison Service / Probation Service. I can only imagine that over a period of 9 years there might be some developments, although those might be contained in other documents - memos, working documents, teaching materials, etc.

margaret_87

Thanks Victor, it explains a lot. I will go through all the websites given and read the Bills, I'm sure I will have some more doubts, so will come back with another questions.

another important thing is - what do you do when an Irish lad commit a crime outside Ireland? let's say.. rape a girl in Germany -do you try to take him back to Ireland for trial or you leave him with German courts?

I read some news (only in the Internet) that you were thinking about Sex Offenders register - it was under discussion but as far as I know there is no such a register?

In Poland we have an online register of Sex Offenders, only the most brutal offenders are in there for everybody to see, but schools and companies see more - they can check if a person they want to hire commit a crime and is registered as a sex offender.

I can't post a link because I'm a new user?

margaret_87

I'm reading all the amendments for Act from 2001 - and.. to get updated info about definitions, penalties and other should I look onto 2001 Act and all this changes or go straight to irishstatuebook and Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2017? (can't post links- sorry).

Sorry If I did not get what you were saying.. it is completely different and I'm trying to understand before reading.

As far as I understood - I need to always look on the status of individual sections in the irishstatuebook.

margaret_87

I got an answer from Care & Rehabilitation Directorate from Irish Prison Service - they sent me a presentation they delivered to colleagues from the Macedonian Correctional Services in the last year. It is all about BBL program.

I will try to get in touch again and ask about Sex Offender Management Policy - thanks a million for tips.

Under His Eye

margaret_87 wrote: »

another important thing is - what do you do when an Irish lad commit a crime outside Ireland? let's say.. rape a girl in Germany -do you try to take him back to Ireland for trial or you leave him with German courts?

It is purely a matter for the German courts.


Ireland does not extend extraterritorial jurisdiction over its citizens.

Victor

margaret_87 wrote: »

another important thing is - what do you do when an Irish lad commit a crime outside Ireland? let's say.. rape a girl in Germany -do you try to take him back to Ireland for trial or you leave him with German courts?

Normally, we deal with crime based on where it is committed and the authorities here will cooperate with the authorities there. There are specific procedures for dealing with things like terrorism and sex offences, where offences committed elsewhere can be prosecuted in Ireland. You will be aware that Ireland has current concerns about the independence of the Polish judiciary.

I read some news (only in the Internet) that you were thinking about Sex Offenders register - it was under discussion but as far as I know there is no such a register?

[/QUOTE]No, there is an existing system in place. This http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_trial/sex_offenders_register.html gives background. There is an office in the Garda dealing with all registered sex offenders, but no published document or website.

In Poland we have an online register of Sex Offenders, only the most brutal offenders are in there for everybody to see, but schools and companies see more - they can check if a person they want to hire commit a crime and is registered as a sex offender.

Surely this risks vigilantism by members of the public and non-compliance by offenders. It also facilitates offenders in finding other offenders.

In Ireland, most courts are held in public (not family court) and most sex offenders are reported in the media. Where a sex offender is related to or closely associated with the victim(s), the court may order the media to not name the convicted person, so as to protect the victim(s).

Employers who deal with vulnerable people can ask the Garda to check on an individual they are thinking of employing. Similarly, banks can check for people who have been convicted of, e.g. bank robbery or fraud.

margaret_87 wrote: »

I can't post a link because I'm a new user?

Remove the http and www parts and it might post.

margaret_87 wrote: »

I'm reading all the amendments for Act from 2001 - and.. to get updated info about definitions, penalties and other should I look onto 2001 Act and all this changes or go straight to irishstatuebook and Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2017? (can't post links- sorry).

The Sex Offenders Act, 2001 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/18/enacted/en/html
and the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2017 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/act/2/enacted/en/html are different pieces of legislation - they don't even have the same name.

The text here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/18/enacted/en/html only shows how that act stood in 2001, not it's current status. You need to look here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/isbc/2001_18.html to see it's current status.

margaret_87 wrote: »

As far as I understood - I need to always look on the status of individual sections in the irishstatuebook.

Correct.

margaret_87

The recent changes to the Polish judiciary are bad, totally bad.. it is all because of leading party in Parliament, anyway, people are aware what is happening.
Lots of Supreme Court judges resigned from their position to show their objections.. it is a BIG topic to discuss on.


According the Sex Offenders register - Definitely. I agree. But there is also many positive aspects of that.
As far as I can tell it doesn't give an exact address. A person who hurts children should face severe consequences, it is kind of punishment for him as well.
Truly, I don't really believe in therapy for pedophiles..
But All in all - I also think it was not a good move by Justice Ministry.
I tried to delete https.. here is the link

//rps.ms.gov.pl/en-US/Public#/home


And what about Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2006?