Disc brakes on high-end road bike?

EDit

Did a search and there are a few discussions around disc vs V brakes on commuter bikes, but wondered what the consensus was in terms of high-spec ‘summer-only’ road bikes. I am thinking of upgrading in the new year to something in the 3-5k price range and will be looking for a bike aimed at primarily summertime long, hilly sportives (think WW200).

I’ve looked at the usual suspects (giant, cervelo, specialized, etc) and there is a definite shift toward hydraulic disc brakes, but most brands still sell the bikes with V brakes. I can also see the rationale for disc brakes, especially in this country, where you could very easily be descending in lashing rain in the middle of the summer. However, my main concern is maintenance and upkeep...as someone who is (to put it mildly) pretty inept at bike maintenance, will I be asking for trouble having hydraulics on my bike? Also, do disc brakes make changing a tyre ( which might be done up the Wicklow mountains in the rain) more complicated?

Any opinions welcome

jamesd

Ive gone disc's on my summer and winter bikes and no issues with changing wheels compared to normal and find the braking a major advantage.

terrydel

EDit wrote: »

Did a search and there are a few discussions around disc vs V brakes on commuter bikes, but wondered what the consensus was in terms of high-spec ‘summer-only’ road bikes. I am thinking of upgrading in the new year to something in the 3-5k price range and will be looking for a bike aimed at primarily summertime long, hilly sportives (think WW200).

I’ve looked at the usual suspects (giant, cervelo, specialized, etc) and there is a definite shift toward hydraulic disc brakes, but most brands still sell the bikes with V brakes. I can also see the rationale for disc brakes, especially in this country, where you could very easily be descending in lashing rain in the middle of the summer. However, my main concern is maintenance and upkeep...as someone who is (to put it mildly) pretty inept at bike maintenance, will I be asking for trouble having hydraulics on my bike? Also, do disc brakes make changing a tyre ( which might be done up the Wicklow mountains in the rain) more complicated?

Any opinions welcome

With most thru axles (which are the standard now for disc brakes) you'll need to carry an allen key (unsure on size) to remove wheels. Other than that it should be no different.

Macy0161

terrydel wrote: »

With most thru axles (which are the standard now for disc brakes) you'll need to carry an allen key (unsure on size) to remove wheels. Other than that it should be no different.

Really? They don't have lever like a bolt through mountain bike?

jamesd

Macy0161 wrote: »

Really? They don't have lever like a bolt through mountain bike?

Some do,most do not - a multitool will open them or an allen key.

Macy0161

Interesting, as I was about to post that I'm probably quicker removing my mountain bike wheels with bolt through axles than I am my disc braked road bike with quick releases by the time you get over the lawyer tabs.

I'd also say I have less issues with brake rub after taking them out with the bolt through I assume as it's more consistent in the positioning, but that probably carries with allen key as well.

Lumen

A nice light bike with shallow section alloy wheels and good rim brakes is perfect for the use you describe.

Tenzor07

Do they still sell bikes with Rim brakes??

benneca1

Lumen wrote: »

A nice light bike with shallow section alloy wheels and good rim brakes is perfect for the use you describe.

Was of the same view as lumen till I bought new bike with discs the amount of watts you save by being able to brake with one finger has to be experienced to be believed. Maybe I am trying to justify the purchase to myself. Nice to be able to do an endo on a bike with drops though.

Lumen

Oh, I see the weight & price penalty for discs is down to about 0.4kg and €600. That makes it a bit harder.

There don't seem to be many sub-7kg rim braked bikes around any more that aren't stupid money.

Lumen

benneca1 wrote: »

I bought new bike with discs the amount of watts you save by being able to brake with one finger has to be experienced to be believed.

I do miss the feel of rim brakes though. Being able to set the pads up a couple of mm from the braking surface and getting that lovely accurate braking feel compared to the powerful slop of a hydro disc system.

saccades

EDit wrote: »

.as someone who is (to put it mildly) pretty inept at bike maintenance, will I be asking for trouble having hydraulics on my bike? Also, do disc brakes make changing a tyre ( which might be done up the Wicklow mountains in the rain) more complicated?

Any opinions welcome

I too am mechanically inept.

I had an alfine disc/xt hub/open pro combo on my commuting CX bike that i used to go up towards glendalough 3x a week and got to 23k km before I sold it. Must have been on there 4-5 years.

I don't remember changing the pads. They just worked. Tbf I rode on my own mainly and didn't have to brake. Punctures were quicker to sort than messing about with the cable for the brake.

I currently ride a PX London Road with SRAM rival HRD disc brakes, this has had a tougher braking life as not only do I commute up and down the coast (125km round trip) with a mix of country roads and traffic in Bray etc but I now ride in a train with a road club on a regular basis and have to feather my speed when drafting. 3rd year and the rear is spongey ( hardens up when pumped) so needs to be bled, could probably do with new pads too). I must be on ~16k km.

It's ancient technology - how often do you mess with brakes on your car?

saccades

EDit wrote: »

.as someone who is (to put it mildly) pretty inept at bike maintenance, will I be asking for trouble having hydraulics on my bike? Also, do disc brakes make changing a tyre ( which might be done up the Wicklow mountains in the rain) more complicated?

Any opinions welcome

I too am mechanically inept.

I had an alfine disc/xt hub/open pro combo on my commuting CX bike that i used to go up towards glendalough 3x a week and got to 23k km before I sold it. Must have been on there 4-5 years.

I don't remember changing the pads. They just worked. Tbf I rode on my own mainly and didn't have to brake. Punctures were quicker to sort than messing about with the cable for the brake.

I currently ride a PX London Road with SRAM rival HRD disc brakes, this has had a tougher braking life as not only do I commute up and down the coast (125km round trip) with a mix of country roads and traffic in Bray etc but I now ride in a train with a road club on a regular basis and have to feather my speed when drafting. 3rd year and the rear is spongey ( hardens up when pumped) so needs to be bled, could probably do with new pads too). I must be on ~16k km.

It's ancient technology - how often do you mess with brakes on your car?

flatface

I too am looking at disc vs rim brakes on a new bike. How do they feel? Do disc feel any better? Prefer riding them?

Cookie_Monster

flatface wrote: »

I too am looking at disc vs rim brakes on a new bike. How do they feel? Do disc feel any better? Prefer riding them?

I've disc on my cycloX but rim on the road bike, I hate the rim brakes since I got the discs and my next road bike will have discs as well. There is simply no comparison IMO, disc stopping power is just so so so so so so so much better.

Lumen

flatface wrote: »

I too am looking at disc vs rim brakes on a new bike. How do they feel? Do disc feel any better? Prefer riding them?

They feel sloppy but powerful.

a148pro

Lumen wrote: »

They feel sloppy but powerful.

What do you mean by sloppy lumen?

I would say the reverse, that rim brakes feel weak, haphazard and sloppy in comparison

I don't know if people necessarily need rim brakes, unless they're doing very fast stops out of habit (I suppose we should all be able to do emergency stops) but if I had a choice, could afford it and wasn't concerned about the weight I'd definitely go disc

Lumen

a148pro wrote: »

What do you mean by sloppy lumen?

I mean lots of lever travel.

People will argue that more lever travel is better, and for use on the drops I'd probably agree, ergonomically, but to me they still feel sloppy.

CramCycle

I have my rim brakes set up so that even the lightest pull gives you slowing and they fully engage well before half way. I presume you can set discs to be the same.

Lumen

CramCycle wrote: »

I have my rim brakes set up so that even the lightest pull gives you slowing and they fully engage well before half way. I presume you can set discs to be the same.

That's not how hydro discs work on a road bike, at least the SRAM and Shimano ones I've used. They have been deliberately designed to have a fair bit of free stroke and then quite a bit of travel. This gives more precise control of the stopping power.

With rim brakes (at least modern road calipers) the modulation comes from the "squidge" of the pads and presumably some stretch in the cables and compression of the outers. This all operates over a shorter pull distance that a hydro disc system.

Presumably hydro discs could be designed with less lever travel, but then a bunch of people would end up going over the bars as the force required to actuate them is much smaller.

C3PO

Lumen wrote: »

That's not how hydro discs work on a road bike, at least the SRAM and Shimano ones I've used. They have been deliberately designed to have a fair bit of free stroke and then quite a bit of travel. This gives more precise control of the stopping power.

Recently collected my new Kinesis with Ultegra disc brakes and I was very surprised at how much travel there was at the lever ... actually asked Robin Seymour whether they were set up correctly!! :rolleyes: I would be used to a much more precise feel with MTB hydraulic brakes. Having said that, I've got used to them very quickly and now find the rim brakes on my other road bikes feel a bit "grabby" in comparison!

smacl

Lumen wrote: »

Presumably hydro discs could be designed with less lever travel, but then a bunch of people would end up going over the bars as the force required to actuate them is much smaller.

The Shimano BR685 brakes I'm using can be set to have less lever travel but it took a full bleed to work for me, and figuring out how to do it took some time. I found on my bike as delivered the back brakes were pretty much exactly as I wanted but there was way too much lever travel on the front before anything happened. I adjusted them to be about the same and at this stage really like the feel. When I got the bike initially I hated the feel of the brakes, where I'd the rim brakes on my old bike set very close to keep the braking sharp.

CramCycle

C3PO wrote: »

Recently collected my new Kinesis with Ultegra disc brakes and I was very surprised at how much travel there was at the lever ... actually asked Robin Seymour whether they were set up correctly!! :rolleyes: I would be used to a much more precise feel with MTB hydraulic brakes. Having said that, I've got used to them very quickly and now find the rim brakes on my other road bikes feel a bit "grabby" in comparison!

I used to get the same when switching between my cantis and my road bike brakes. If the brakes are sufficient, you become accustomed to them very quickly.

flatface

on the Canyons discs are €500 extra. For me its a choice between disc + 105 or ultegra which would you go for?

Brian?

flatface wrote: »

on the Canyons discs are €500 extra. For me its a choice between disc + 105 or ultegra which would you go for?

Ultegra

saccades

flatface wrote: »

on the Canyons discs are €500 extra. For me its a choice between disc + 105 or ultegra which would you go for?

Disc - all weather braking, a proper benefit. 105 has all the technology trickle down from ultegra but weighs a little more.

magicbastarder

saccades wrote: »

105 has all the technology trickle down from ultegra

yeah, the rear derailleur now looks pig ugly in the same way the ultegra one does...

ballyharpat

ultegra and disc but seriously, I would be going disc on any bike from here on.
I have a cx bike with rim, a road bike with rim, a cx bike with disc, and an mtb with disc. To futureproof my new bikes, I would be going disc, I can see some great deals on rim, but disc is the future, and as I get on in years, the disc braking is easier on the hands.
After racing in the ras Mumhann this year, and having trouble pulling the brakes from being so cold, and the rims wet, the braking was dangerous. Also, after doing the etape, I would have preferred disc considering how long the descents were.

D13exile

Just going off on a very slight tangent here but with all the talk about stopping power, surely a stronger braking action induces skidding? A more modulated braking action allows a tyre to slow down without losing grip and going into a skid. As the saying for cars (and I'd say also applies to bikes), brakes stop the wheel but tyres stop the car/bike.

Saying that, I'm planning on getting a new road bike next year and I'm stuck with the dilemma of rims/hydraulic brakes. The issues I have are ease of swapping out a wheel to fix a puncture, maintenance of disc braking systems and the weight penalty

EDit

D13exile wrote: »

Just going off on a very slight tangent here but with all the talk about stopping power, surely a stronger braking action induces skidding? A more modulated braking action allows a tyre to slow down without losing grip and going into a skid. As the saying for cars (and I'd say also applies to bikes), brakes stop the wheel but tyres stop the car/bike.

Saying that, I'm planning on getting a new road bike next year and I'm stuck with the dilemma of rims/hydraulic brakes. The issues I have are ease of swapping out a wheel to fix a puncture, maintenance of disc braking systems and the weight penalty

From my reading around the subject, most disc versions with high quality hydraulic brakes have minimal weight gains over the rim brake equivalent and some brands/bike series have even managed to make the disc version lighter.

smacl

D13exile wrote: »

Saying that, I'm planning on getting a new road bike next year and I'm stuck with the dilemma of rims/hydraulic brakes. The issues I have are ease of swapping out a wheel to fix a puncture, maintenance of disc braking systems and the weight penalty

On the my Rose CX, the disc wheels are quicker to take on and off than the QRs on my old Ridley as I don't have any rim brakes to open up and the disc wheels are QR. Maintenance wise, I've had to do a bleed twice in three years and changed the pads a couple of times, probably a bit more maintenance on rims if you change the cables every couple of years. What is a pain now is that I've three bikes with different wheel and brake systems so no interchangeability of parts. It would be nice to be able swap wheels around for different types of excursion.

saccades

D13exile wrote: »

Saying that, I'm planning on getting a new road bike next year and I'm stuck with the dilemma of rims/hydraulic brakes. The issues I have are ease of swapping out a wheel to fix a puncture, maintenance of disc braking systems and the weight penalty

I'll add another. Disc rims don't need a braking track and as such last way longer than rim brakes despite being lighter..

Less rotating weight is always good.

gaffmaster

Anyone got recent experience of cable actuated disc brakes?

I'm looking at this Cannondale CAADX and wondering why they wouldn't spec a hydraulic system. I've heard bike packers prefer the trailside/roadside maintenance advantages of cable disc, but how are they in terms of braking?

My only experience of cable actuated disc brakes were on a rental mountain bike that lived out in the rain. There was a lot of squealing and rust. Not a nice component to use - but again, could have been the living conditions/lack of servicing.

Lumen

Cable discs are cheaper. That's all.

saccades

gaffmaster wrote: »

Anyone got recent experience of cable actuated disc brakes?

I'm looking at this Cannondale CAADX and wondering why they wouldn't spec a hydraulic system. I've heard bike packers prefer the trailside/roadside maintenance advantages of cable disc, but how are they in terms of braking?

My only experience of cable actuated disc brakes were on a rental mountain bike that lived out in the rain. There was a lot of squealing and rust. Not a nice component to use - but again, could have been the living conditions/lack of servicing.

The only ones that are any good are BB7's (not the fives).

Lumen

I had BB7s. They were crap.

Type 17

Cable disc brakes, properly set up, are very good, and a step up from rim brakes, as the power and modulation is better.
Saying that, they need regular adjustment as the pads wear, which can be a bit tedious - hydraulic brakes self-adjust because more fluid drops into the system as the pads wear.

If I was considering whether to go rim or disc, the disc would always be hydraulic - they're easy enough to set up and bleed, once you buy a suitable kit.

As mentioned, the only time cable discs would win over hydraulic is when doing very remote touring, where you'll have to carry your own tools and spares, and do it all yourself.

saccades

Lumen wrote: »

I had BB7s. They were crap.

Tbf, they should've been right up your ****ing alley as each pad is 100% position adjustable so you can set them up in 30 seconds to have no lever throw at all.

If your talking about lack of braking you didn't bed the pads in very well or had too small a rotor.

Lumen

saccades wrote: »

Tbf, they should've been right up your ****ing alley as each pad is 100% position adjustable so you can set them up in 30 seconds to have no lever throw at all.

If your talking about lack of braking you didn't bed the pads in very well or had too small a rotor.

There are two issues:

1. Only one pad moves and they're not self-adjusting. But then I guess neither are rim brake pads.
2. Despite quite a bit of investment in incompressible outers and clean cuts, I could never get the rear brake to feel good.

The bedding in process is tolerable, you only do it once for a set of rotors.

Type 17 wrote: »

Cable disc brakes, properly set up, are very good, and a step up from rim brakes, as the power and modulation is better.

I disagree. Rim brakes with good pads on alloy rims can lock up both wheels, so the power is plenty, and the modulation is better IMO than cable discs. Particularly the rear. The only reason to prefer them is to run massive tyres (I have them on a bike with 40mm slicks).

flatface

Last question on disc brakes - If someone, not me of course, was very bad a cleaning their bike, are discs good or bad? My friend says his rim brakes are always sub-optimal due to dirt on the rims, do discs need to be cleaned more/less?

Lumen

I clean my disc braked bike about twice a year and never go near the brakes. Maybe once a year they get serviced in a shop.

Type 17

Lumen wrote: »

I disagree. Rim brakes with good pads on alloy rims can lock up both wheels, so the power is plenty, and the modulation is better IMO than cable discs. Particularly the rear. The only reason to prefer them is to run massive tyres (I have them on a bike with 40mm slicks).

In fairness, it probably does also depend on the quality of the kit - a decent set of rim brakes with good pads is almost certainly better than a cheap cable-disc setup, where they've specced the cheapest stuff available just so that they can boast of disc brakes at a particular price point...

flatface wrote: »

Last question on disc brakes - If someone, not me of course, was very bad a cleaning their bike, are discs good or bad? My friend says his rim brakes are always sub-optimal due to dirt on the rims, do discs need to be cleaned more/less?

Discs are probably worse for a "maintenance-free" bike - although the brake surfaces will generally keep themselves clean in both disc and rim setups, the result of oil contamination is much more severe with discs (horrendous squealing as well as poorer stopping power). Additionally, permanently dirty disc callipers can cause the pistons to stick, and eventually, the seals and bores fail from grit contamination.

Rim callipers are much more forgiving of filth, but even they will eventually seize from wheel-spray with no mudguards, but then they can often be disassembled and cleaned out, if their replacement cost is high enough to justify the rebuild costs.

PS: Maybe actually clean your ("friend's") bike every so often - your LBS can do it for a reasonable fee if you don't have the space or facilities.

saccades

Lumen wrote: »

There are two issues:

1. Only one pad moves and they're not self-adjusting. But then I guess neither are rim brake pads.
2. Despite quite a bit of investment in incompressible outers and clean cuts, I could never get the rear brake to feel good.

The bedding in process is tolerable, you only do it once for a set of rotors.



I disagree. Rim brakes with good pads on alloy rims can lock up both wheels, so the power is plenty, and the modulation is better IMO than cable discs. Particularly the rear. The only reason to prefer them is to run massive tyres (I have them on a bike with 40mm slicks).

Wrong brakes.

BB7s have TWO fully adjustable moving pads, you must have used the BB5's which only have the out board pad adjustable.

Not sure about your rear problems, I use full length outers and it's been grand for over 7 years at this point. Some people have used oilers to lube as I guess it might be a friction thing

Type 17

Interesting article about cleaning disc brakes and preventing contamination in the first place:

https://off.road.cc/content/feature/whats-the-best-way-to-clean-disc-brakes-on-a-bicycle-2937

cdaly_

saccades wrote: »

The only ones that are any good are BB7's (not the fives).

Lumen wrote: »

I had BB7s. They were crap.

I have a BB7 (rear). It's great. Occasional pad adjustment required (not need on hydraulics) and that's it.

saccades wrote: »

BB7s have TWO fully adjustable moving pads,

I think Lumen's talking about only one pad moving when you brake. The inboard pad moves only for setup/adjustment, after that the outboard pad presses the disc onto the inboard.

Lumen

cdaly_ wrote: »

I think Lumen's talking about only one pad moving when you brake. The inboard pad moves only for setup/adjustment, after that the outboard pad presses the disc onto the inboard.

Thanks, that was it. And the pads aren't self-adjusting like hydraulics, so there's a bit of fettling to keep them running well. But the maintenance is definitely easier than hydraulics, and almost as easy as rim brakes.

Still, I would only consider cable discs for a loaded tourer that was going somewhere without good bike shops, or if I was on a very tight budget. Hydros are so good now....